Harvard and Brown

Parents Forum
41

<p>lingbo, just to throw another perspective in the mix...</p>

<p>i was an undergrad at brown, now a grad student at harvard and was recently offerred a position as a house tutor in a few of the harvard houses. </p>

<p>now in the position of having to formally advise undergrads at harvard, i find myself comparing their experience to my own. overall, there are more similarities than differences but i have a few impressions that stand out:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>the resources at harvard--particularly for student initiated extracurriculars (and occasionally curricular projects)--are extraordinary and unparalleled anywhere else.</p></li>
<li><p>house life is at the absolute center of the undergrad experience at harvard which is both nice and unfortunate. it's nice for all the reasons you would expect. it's unfortunate because outside of houses, harvard can be a very cold place towards undergrads. students do not have the level of direct access to faculty i had at brown and encounter much more bureaucracy and closed doors. they also are (i think) too dependent on grad students like me for academic and pre-professional advice, as opposed to the appointed deans and faculty advisors i had at brown.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>neither place is perfect, but both are wonderful. as others have said, you should visit both and go with your gut. feel free to PM me anytime.</p>

42

<p>The best part of the open curriculum at Brown is that you'll get addicted to being fully engaged in what you are doing. It is a joy. Every class you take, you truly want to take. And all your classmates feel the same. It makes for a passionate, heady atmosphere. And, thus addicted, you will rise to the challenge of living a passionate, engaged life.</p>

<p>I never felt overwhelmed or even particularly stressed at Brown. I knew no slackers-- but there were lots of people willing to call it quits and go shoot some pool even if it might mean a B rather than an A on the next day's test. (Some of them studied some more after playing pool, too.)</p>

<p>I spent quite a bit of time at Harvard (boyfriend) and the stress level there was palpable. OTOH, some people thrive on stress. Just not me. (Hey I hated living in NYC too, a place many people love!)</p>

<p>Again, visit-- then pick the environment where you sense you will thrive. Depending on who you are and what makes you tick, it could be either place.</p>

43

<p>My daughter and her friends have had no problem comping. Actually, it's a good way to meet other people and get involved with other groups. Then again, she didn't comp for the Lampoon which, I would imagine, is among the most competitive. Many of the comp groups actually have a weekend away from campus in the process - I can't remember at the moment what that's called, but there is some name for it. </p>

<p>Setting up blocking groups can indeed be stressful for a couple of weeks. I think that's more because sometimes people want to combine or choose between groups of friends. Because of all the extracurricular involvement, sometimes it's hard to choose between existing roommates and ones you've met and become friendly with in other ECs. Some choose to combine them both if it can be made to work.</p>

<p>The integrated city/campus was very appealing to my daughter. It was enough of a campus for her that it wasn't as urban as NYU or BU. But she does love having Cambridge at her fingertips.</p>

<p>My daughter has a friend who went to Penn who strongly suggested that she do a pre-orientation program if possible, wherever she went. My daughter did do one, and it was a fabulous experience which I'd highly recommend. She formed many strong, ongoing friendships there. It's something to think about for wherever you end up, if it's available. She was already at home on campus while other freshmen were just moving in. </p>

<p>I wouldn't go with studies or surveys about where students are happiest. I'd go with your gut feeling. You'll know.</p>

44

<p>In response to the comment that students have difficulty getting recommendations from professors at Harvard, this isn't necessarily true. My daughter is an "average" freshman student, premed, and got two recommendations from professors teaching large classes (life sciences) for grants. The perception that students can't get the recommendations is based on many of them not making any attempt to get to know their professors.</p>

45

<p>Here's another sort of question. If you are considering creative writing, you might look at how competitive it is to get into writing workshops. It doesn't matter how famous the writers on the faculty might be, if 300 people compete for 10 slots and you're not one of the lucky ten. </p>

<p>This was part of the approach my S took when making his very difficult decision, though his was around music. He chose to go somewhere that allows him to participate in an ensemble every semester and even gives him private lessons, rather than choose to go where there is one great group he might or might not be lucky enough to get into during his four years. One of the wonderful universities he turned down (he really wanted to go to them all!) offered nothing beyond that one great group and the suggestion that other students could form something on their own. He didn't know what his future major would be, but he did know he wanted to keep growing as a musician, just as it sounds as if you want to keep growing as a writer.</p>

<p>I think Jonri's point about the different experiences in the different departments at Harvard sounds right. Econ is impersonal at many universities -- they're just overwhelmed by the number of undergrad majors. Sanskrit is probably personal everywhere.</p>

<p>As for buyer's remorse, I'd say turning down Harvard left my S not so much with remorse as with a question in his mind about what it would have been like. As he got more and more engaged with his school, that question faded. His choice has worked for him. One thing you'll probably find, as he did, is that people don't talk about where they did or did not get in once at college. It's parents who do that.:) Some people still say they can't believe we "let" our S turn down Harvard. I think it's great that you appear to be honestly weighing your options and attempting not to let that hefty Harvard name tip the balance too much. I don't think there is a "wrong" decision here.</p>

46

<p>
[quote]
Actually, Jonri, I have to disagree with what you say about H. It is impossible for Harvard to have only stars among its 6,000+ student body. The students at H are a lot like the students at Brown and other top schools.
[quote/]
</p>

<p>(I'm never sure how to do quotes..so, if that doesn't work, I hope you'll still understand I'm trying to quote Marite.)</p>

<p>Maybe I wasn't clear, Marite. I **agree **with you--though I think there are a more genius math/science kids at H than at most other non "techy" schools. It's just that I personally feel that the kids in the middle of the class are better off being in the middle of the class at Brown than at Harvard. It's my opinion--with which you will undoubtedly disagree, which is fine--that Brown faculty care more about the kids in the bottom half of the class than Harvard faculty do. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule. I just think that's true in general. As one recent Brown grad put it, "Brown profs are almost like high school teachers. They care about all their students and they care about you as a person, not just your academic career." NOTE--this B grad wasn't talking about H AT ALL or drawing any comparisons. She was ONLY making an observation about her B experience.She was someone who had done well, but far from outstandingly well, at B, and felt that her profs really cared about her. </p>

<p>So, I'm suggesting that the OP spend some time truthfully evaluating himself. Nobody can say with certain where in the class any incoming frosh will be. However, there are some "hints." From what you've said about your son, it would be extremely unlikely that he would end up being in the bottom half of math students at H if he put in any effort. But other kids may know that it's a real possibility. </p>

<p>I've known many "average" kids at H--by which I mean they were "average" by H standards-- and while many are happy, others, weren't. While I KNOW it is out of date and H has improved some things, that's one of the points that Half-way Heaven, the book about the murder suicide, at H made. </p>

<p>Nor did I say that students can't get to know H faculty well if they make the effort. I'm sure they can. I know they can because I know students who have. But there are kids who just aren't going to stop by during office hours or make appointments to see profs. That kind of student, IMO, has a hard time getting to know H profs well. I don't think the law school dean was inventing the fact that MANY--I did NOT say all or most, just MANY--applicants who went to H undergrad submitted recs from at least one TF when two recs were required. I honestly think you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY B student who had to do that. It's just easier to get to know profs. Among other things, MOST frosh take one frosh seminar, limited to frosh, which is taught by a faculty member. </p>

<p>And, I personally think that getting a rec from a TF--no matter how glowing--isn't going to help you get into a top law, med or Ph.D. program as much as getting one from a faculty member will. It's not necessary for that faculty member to be a BIG NAME. But a glowing rec from a TF who has less than 5 years of teaching experience--and that often limited to teaching sections--is not particularly helpful. </p>

<p>Again, please understand that my post was not intended to bash H. It's a great school. </p>

<p>Oh, and the standard anecdote is "Harvard students want to run the world; Princeton students want to own it; Brown students want to save it." Again, I'm sure there are many H students who are altruistic; many P students who are not materialistic; and many B students who have little interest in social ills. It's just an often repeated stereotype.</p>

<p>Again, I don't think there's any bad choice here. I'm just throwing in my personal opinion, which I admit is biased.</p>

47

<p>Jonri:</p>

<p>Thanks for clarifying. </p>

<p>I still think that Harvard admits plenty of un-stellar students, although the proportion of truly stellar ones is perhaps higher than at most places. But a former dean of admissions has been quoted in many books as saying that Harvard wants to admit "the happy bottom quarter" as a justification for admitting students with less than stellar stats but something to contribute to the Harvard community. Not that Lingbo sounds like a prospective denizen of the happy bottom quarter. But maybe those who dwell there are dreaming of changing the world and not paying sufficient attention to their studies? :) Has anyone wondered how the founder of Facebook was doing in his classes before he dropped out to change the way students communicate and in the process become another millionnaire Harvard drop-out? :)</p>

<p>As I've said, my S had a fabulous visit at Brown. The students were friendly and seemed happy and the profs were willing to spend lots of time with him. But he'd taken classes at Harvard as a high schooler, including classes he'd asked the prof for permission to audit. Although he was not a paying student, he was allowed to do all the problem sets and arrangements were made so he could take the final exams. At the end of the year, one prof invited him to attend the graduation party he was throwing for the seniors and their parents in the class. So you'd think he would be comfortable dropping by profs' offices? Nah. My S has received emails from profs to come and drop by their office, with suggested times. The classes are not small, but the profs seem intent to get to know every student. There is definitely a culture of mutual avoidance at Harvard, as one prof is reported to have said. And I don't really know why it should be so.</p>

<p>As for letters from TFs, pre-law advising is excellent at Harvard, as is pre-med. Every House has an advisor specializing in either of these two. So the advisors must think that the recs from the TFs will pass muster. Ordinarily, letters from TFs are co-signed by heads of courses. As I said, 70% of classes have fewer than 20 students, so the ones who decided to secure recs from TFs mus have decided to highlight the fact that they did very well in certain classes which happen to be very large (Justice, for example, taught by Michael Sandel, and with 800 students?) But I agree with you that in general a letter from a prof is far more effective than a letter from a TF.</p>

<p>Finally, I do not think that anyone in this thread, least of all I, wishes to bash one either Brown or Harvard. Lingbo asked for different perspectives and I have tried to share my S's experiences. In particular, Harvard is undergoing lots of changes, and there is lot of outdated information in circulation.</p>

48

<p>I highly doubt that ambitious students at Harvard or Brown have trouble getting into law school or med school, regardless of who writes their letters.</p>

<p>I think that Jonri was referring to Brown when he was discussing freshman seminars. Most freshman at Harvard also take a freshman seminar which is limited to twelve students. </p>

<p>From what I've been reading, Brown sounds like it is more "nuturing" than Harvard. Another saying is that Harvard is not a "hand-holding" school. I'd agree.</p>

49

<p>
[quote]
The best part of the open curriculum at Brown is that you'll get addicted to being fully engaged in what you are doing. It is a joy. Every class you take, you truly want to take. And all your classmates feel the same. It makes for a passionate, heady atmosphere. And, thus addicted, you will rise to the challenge of living a passionate, engaged life.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is what Brown students told my S, and it made a powerful impression on him. It was one reason Brown was so high on his list. At the same time, though, he realized that the temptation to take only courses he wanted to take might make him less well-rounded than he should be. He has not "loved" every course he's taken, but I think that when he graduates, he will be glad that he took them.</p>

<p>I agree with twinmom that Harvard is not as much a hand-holding place as other schools.</p>

50

<p>One thing the students at Brown all seem to say is what was said above is that those in their classes REALLY want to be there because they chose the classes they wanted to take. It makes for a certain kind of learning environment in class. Also, the students appear happy with their studies since they had control over formulating their course of study. </p>

<p>While others sometimes comment that the open curriculum might mean students don't obtain a breadth of study or as well rounded, I believe Brown finds that students naturally tend to explore a wide range of subjects or what would be akin to distribution requirements. I suppose someone could opt to keep studying in a narrow way, but most often this is NOT the case. I also think the advising encourages exploring many areas. My own kid has taken classes in many different departments. She has also opted to study foreign language. The kids I have met seem to be studying from many different areas, not too different from schools that require distribution classes (not talking CORE). I'm not saying this to tout Brown but simply to describe what it seems like there.</p>

<p>I'm not quite sure how "slackers" came into this because I know the academics are intense and demanding and require hard work. Just because students pick what they wish to study, doesn't go hand in hand with slacking. To the contrary, they seem really motivated to do the work as they really want to study whatever it is.</p>

<p>Also, remember that in the area of concentration, a big chunk of one's studies, there are requirements, like anywhere else.</p>

51

<p>Soozie:</p>

<p>I don't understand how "slackers" is part of this discussion, either. What I've heard about Brown and Vassar students is that some--not all--may lack direction and end up with a set of courses that they truly enjoyed and worked very hard in but do not form a cohesive whole. This is from students at these schools as well as people from graduate programs. It does not apply to the great majority of students at Brown or Vassar. I only brought it up because Lingbo seems undecided between different majors.</p>

52

<p>One more data point:</p>

<p>2006 Football Score:
Harvard 38
Brown 21</p>

<p>;-)</p>

53

<p>Coureur:</p>

<p>LOL! I don't get the impression that Lingbo is going to be very interested in football scores! :( :)</p>

54

<p>One thing lingbo could do at Brown (and for all I know she could do this easily at Harvard) is because she is unsure of her potential major (totally normal!), she can explore a variety of subjects to see which engage her without being tied down to a bunch of requirements early on that may not give her room in her schedule to dabble enough in the areas she is thinking of trying out.</p>

55

<p>Ahem. Brown won the Ivy League football championship in 2005. (Not that I expect that to happen again any time soon.)</p>

<p>I haven't contributed to this thread because I would be too biased, and I know it. But I have really enjoyed reading what everyone has had to say, and applaud the insightful and rational comments. </p>

<p>I do have to make one comment -- and that's that Providence is really not that bad. It's gotten much much better since I lived there, there's a pretty lively jazz scene, access to state government and a good newspaper, great restaurants, etc. Since RI is a small state, everyone knows everyone and it's possible to have a real impact on changing things. And you can't beat the corruption in Rhode Island. There's always some judge or politician accepting bribes, assaulting their wives, etc. Great fodder for a potential journalist.</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
And you can't beat the corruption in Rhode Island. There's always some judge or politician accepting bribes, assaulting their wives, etc. Great fodder for a potential journalist.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>ROTFL! It's a distinction that I am happy not claiming on behalf of the Boston-are, though watching The Departed, one might think otherwise.</p>

57

<p>sly_vt: another point for Brown!
coureur: my ideal school's football team would be NO football team at all. :D</p>

<p>This has made for really interesting reading. I think another thing I just thought of is that Harvard's creative writing classes are very hard to get into, as are their art classes. I don't intend to major in either (or who knows), but this is a potential turn off since I really, really want to take creative writing classes. I will definitely ask around about how easy it is to take a creative writing workshop at Brown. </p>

<p>Brown is definitely winning in my head right now. Parents seem antsy. Dad seems calmer than mom. Mom seems bitter and occasionally pipes up in defense of Harvard, as if I were hurting Harvard's feelings. </p>

<p>At my Brown interview, my interviewer went to Brown for undergrad and HBS for grad school. She said something along the lines of Harvard been a more "porous" environment where students would go out into the city unlike Brown, where they would attend mostly campus events. She also described the people at Harvard is more self-centered and driven by inner ambitions and the Brown students as more thoughtful, exploratory, etc. kind of students. (She was also an extraordinarily successful business woman... when I commented to my dad, "Hey, she didn't do too bad for herself, and she went to <em>Brown</em>!" my dad just replied, "But she went to Harvard for grad school." LOL.)</p>

58

<p>
[quote]
Mom seems bitter and occasionally pipes up in defense of Harvard, as if I were hurting Harvard's feelings.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If your heart says Brown, go for it. Your mom will get in line once she sees how happy you are there. And as for dad, there's always grad school. :)</p>

59

<p>
[quote]
I really, really want to take creative writing classes

[/quote]

As I suspected. Just to throw you a curve, since I know you're also waiting to hear from Columbia, Columbia is initiating a new creative writing major.:)</p>

<p>You might want to check out at Harvard, if it is difficult to get into workshops, whether there are alternatives. For example, at Columbia some MFA students offer not-for credit, ungraded workshops, as a lower pressure environment for beginning writers. I know that at Stanford, undergrads can sign up to work with Stegner Fellows, who are early-career writers on fellowship at Stanford. So, sometimes there are parallel systems in place.</p>

<p>As for your mom, you can tell her that if you choose Brown, you will grant her the right to brag that her daughter belongs to about the most exclusive group there is: those who not only got into Harvard, but turned it down!</p>

<p>Beyond that, while no one denies Harvard's clout on the resume, if you head into journalism you will be much better off for either internships, jobs, or grad school, coming out of Brown having been active on the campus paper or radio station, than coming out of Harvard if you did not get that experience.</p>

60

<p>
[quote]
People who are at Brown love being at Brown.</p>

<p>People who are at Harvard love the fact that they're at Harvard.</p>

<p>There is a subtle difference.

[/quote]

The most disingenuous post ever on CC, and with no basis in fact. Who are you to speak for 6000 Harvard students? The ones I know love being at Harvard, including my D who spent 3 summers at Brown.</p>