Harvard and Brown

Parents Forum
61

<p>
[quote]
The most disingenuous post ever on CC, and with no basis in fact.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I ain't mad at ya and I am quite sure that there are quite a numeber people who love being being at Harvard (your daughter included) for whatever number of reasons. But since you asked for the facts (although YMMV) here they are:</p>

<p>
[quote]
''Harvard students are less satisfied with their undergraduate educations than the students at almost all of the other COFHE schools," according to the memo, dated Oct. 2004 and marked ''confidential." ''Harvard student satisfaction compares even less favorably to satisfaction at our closest peer institutions."</p>

<p>The 21-page memo, from staff researchers at Harvard to academic deans, documents student dissatisfaction with faculty availability, quality of instruction, quality of advising, and student life factors such as sense of community and social life on campus.</p>

<p>The raw data used in the memo come from surveys of graduating seniors in 2002, but are the most recent comparison available and are still consulted by Harvard administrators. On a five-point scale, Harvard students' overall satisfaction comes out to 3.95, compared to an average of 4.16 for the other 30 COFHE schools. Although the difference appears small, Harvard officials say they take the ''satisfaction gap" very seriously.</p>

<p>Only four schools scored lower than Harvard, but the schools were not named. (COFHE data are supposed to be confidential.) The memo also notes that Harvard's ''satisfaction gap" has existed since at least 1994.

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/03/29/student_life_at_harvard_lags_peer_schools_poll_finds/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2005/03/29/student_life_at_harvard_lags_peer_schools_poll_finds/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
PROVIDENCE, R.I. — Undergraduate students at Brown University report a very high level of overall satisfaction with their campus experience, according to an independent survey conducted in February by Mcguire Associates Inc. of Boston. More than 90 percent of current undergraduates say they would choose Brown again.</p>

<p>“Although that broad-brush positive result was very satisfying,” said Janina Montero, vice president for campus life and student services, “we are looking to the assessment to identify areas of campus life where significant work needs to be done. We are just beginning to analyze those results.” </p>

<p>The Campus Climate Assessment, commissioned by the Office of Campus Life and Student Services, used a Web-based questionnaire to gather information from 3,163 Brown students, including a 45-percent response rate from the undergraduate student body, 31 percent from graduate students, and 39 percent from medical students. Online data gathering was conducted Feb. 1-25, 2001, using a Web server controlled by Mcguire Associates to ensure confidentiality. All respondents were verified as Brown students, and only fully completed questionnaires were counted.</p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://www.brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2000-01/00-121.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2000-01/00-121.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>OP will have to ultimately choose which one of 2 great schools is going to be the best choice for her.</p>

62

<br>


<br>

<p>The most accurate part of that post was the very first part:</p>

<p>"Here's a huge overgeneralization..."</p>

<p>It is a huge overgeneralization and thus loaded with error.</p>

63

<p>Well, for now, I'm trying not to think about what each school <em>should</em> be like and am just going to see what it <em>is</em> like. I've received sooo much helpful advice on this thread already.</p>

<p>An update, btw: I got a 25k a year scholarship to Brandeis. Ahhh!!! Decisions!!! Did I ever mention that like, my worst fear is making decisions? A vocab word comes to mind: opportunity cost. I feel like I'm sacrificing something no matter what school I choose. </p>

<p>Difference between Harvard pricetag and Brandeis pricetag stands at about 17k a year.</p>

64

<p>"On the five-point scale, Harvard students gave an average score of 2.92 on faculty availability, compared to an average 3.39 for the other COFHE schools. Harvard students gave a 3.16 for quality of instruction, compared to a 3.31 for the other schools, and a 2.54 for quality of advising in their major, compared to 2.86 for the other schools.</p>

<p>Students gave Harvard a 2.62 for social life on campus, compared to a 2.89 for the other schools, and a 2.53 for sense of community, compared to 2.8."</p>

<p>It is likely that Brown is at the opposite end of the scale. </p>

<p>Re: Brandeis: Does the $68k over four years make a lot of difference in your family? Would you be able to spend that $68k on augmenting your education, or adding to it later (med school; a year at art school in Florence: two years volunteering in Africa?) For some folks, $68k is not all that meaningful - the money is there anyway (or would be). The meaningful equation is Brandeis + $68k in educational opportunities <=> Harvard. It will be different for every person.</p>

65

<p>"It is likely that Brown is at the opposite end of the scale."</p>

<p>Because you said so? Or because you personally like Brown? Assuming for the sake of argument that the stats are accurate, either they have been published or they have not.</p>

<p>"Providence is really not that bad."</p>

<p>I agree, only I go further. I actively like Providence and always enjoyed visiting my sister when she was at Brown. I think it's charming and fun.</p>

66

<p>"Because you said so? Or because you personally like Brown? Assuming for the sake of argument that the stats are accurate, either they have been published or they have not."</p>

<p>Simply law of averages, dear, law of averages. If Harvard is 27th (out of 31), there isn't much space below. Coupled with extremely high campus climate assessment scores, it is "likely". Not certain. "Likely."</p>

67

<p>But you didn't say it was likely that Brown was ranked between 1 and 26. That IS likely, based on the data we have. You said it was likely at the opposite end of the scale. And we have no data on that either way.</p>

68

<p>I went to Harvard, but also got accepted to Brown. When it was time to make up my mind between the two, it was hard for me to figure out where to go because I liked Brown so much. It's beautiful, undergraduate centered, more friendly and laid back than Harvard.</p>

<p>I did pick Harvard due to the prestige and Boston, and would do it again. I think that my adjustment to undegrad (due to being from a small town and to being shy) was harder at Harvard than it would have been at Brown. However, by having to rise to the challenge of Harvard's social environment (which tends to highly value individualists), I learned things that have served me well for a lifetime. I can go virtually anywhere and feel comfortable.</p>

<p>If I had gone to Brown, however, I do think that I would have had a good experience and probably would have developed more intellectually than I did at Harvard. While I have a doctorate, I don't consider myself a true intellectual, but I might have become one if I had gone to Brown.</p>

<p>Either can be a good choice. Follow your heart.</p>

69

<p>Asked and answered.</p>

70

<p>Lingbo -- </p>

<p>What great choices you have! Really, you can't go wrong. There's only one perfect solution to the current dilemma, though: Yale.</p>

71

<p>I KNEW I shouldn't have withdrawn my app! Oh well.</p>

72

<p>Ack! That's the first indication I've gotten that you are less than perfect.</p>

73

<p>Lingbo:
Congratulations on the Brandeis scholarship. You and your parents have much to be proud of! :)</p>

74

<p>And of course there is always the old saying, Harvard students expect more and grade their own school harder. They also graduate about 98%, i.e. not many leave for greener pastures. That is a much more telling statistic than a survey that ask students to grade their school against an arbitrary and unknown scale. They don't attend other schools, so no comparison of relative values is possible or valid. And none of that points to the supposed fact that "People who are at Harvard love the fact that they're at Harvard."</p>

75

<p>
[quote]
Well, for now, I'm trying not to think about what each school <em>should</em> be like and am just going to see what it <em>is</em> like. I've received sooo much helpful advice on this thread already.</p>

<p>An update, btw: I got a 25k a year scholarship to Brandeis. Ahhh!!! Decisions!!! Did I ever mention that like, my worst fear is making decisions? A vocab word comes to mind: opportunity cost. I feel like I'm sacrificing something no matter what school I choose. </p>

<p>Difference between Harvard pricetag and Brandeis pricetag stands at about 17k a year.

[/quote]
Sounds like you got a nice merit package and don't qualify for any need based aid. I don't think you'll be hurting either place.</p>

76

<p>Potential problems with Brown since you asked:
1) themed housing, live with geeks, live with ethnics, live with greeks, but very little general upper class housing if you don't fit in with those groupings.
2) D found the dorms to be very generic/industrial. Hard linoleum floors (gray in most cases) and just not real appealing, though most were decent sized. Not airconditioned, but it was summer. Not as much an issue in the winter.
3) Thayer Street has a nice vibe, but muggings are not uncommon there and on campus (it really is part of campus for all intents). It's no safer than Harvard and maybe not as much.<br>
4) access to professors should not be a deciding factor based on her experience at Harvard.
5) Financial aid at Brown was considerably under what Harvard offered. I understand they have recently improved the loan situation.</p>

77

<p>bandit, i think you may be mistaken about brown housing.
1. there are plenty of very nice housing options for upperclassman, all apartment or suite style, many with large bay windows, walk-in closets, fireplaces (that you can't use but still...)
2. all dorms suffer from a certain degree of "industrialness". even Adams House at Harvard, the paragon of Gold Coast luxury, has a very "dorm-like" feel as soon as you move out of the lounge spaces into the living spaces.
3. muggings do occur around the brown campus, as they do in any city. anyone who reads the crimson would know that there has been a spike of muggings around harvard recently as well, several of which have even occurred right in harvard yard</p>

78

<p>bandit: I do qualify for need based aid (not a ton, but definitely a chunk) and money is certainly one factor in my decision.</p>

79

<p>Lingbo: I suspect you will get a very nice financial package from Harvard. The financial aid office very hard to make it manageable for their admits to attend.</p>

80

<p>How did this turn out, anyone know? </p>

<p>:P sorry for the bump</p>