9% of what number? How many applicants actually filled out their entire applications vs how many received Appointments? From which year are your getting you data?
Thanks @Wje9164be . Kind of what I figured and a good lesson to those that seek advice or insight on this site to be very skeptical of the sources. Anyone can post numbers and then claim they are facts. Take all of it with a grain of salt.
Www.usma.edu/admissions provides a class profile showing 13,827 applicants “started files” and 1,257 were admitted. That is 9.09 percent. Arguably starting a file is not the same as sending in a college application but the accepted way publications like Forbes or US News and World Report look at the military academy stats is to report files started as applications. I double checked and Cornell’s admit rate in 2014 was 14 percent not 12 percent. Harvard’s admit rate this year was slightly over 5 percent as published in the Harvard Crimson and other sources. Wbat part of my post are you questioning?
The accuracy of 9%. Regardless of how anyone else evaluated “started files” a more accurate (and honest) method would be completed applications. Now how about (for the USMA) you define what actually constitutes a “started file”. What information is required to qualify as a “started file”? What if a HS student is not interested in applying for the USMA but instead is only interested in the USMA’s Summer Session…would that also count as a “started file”?
BTW - Thanks for your service.
Yes it probably would. To apply for the Summer Leadership program applicants are required to start a file. In defense of how thus figure is reported, I’m not sure at what point you would say a file is complete. After initial file is created teacher recommendations are completed, the CFA test is completed, a congressional interview happens, and a medical review takes place. Saying that all this has to happen before someone has applied is setting the bar pretty high. While it makes USMA and the other service academies appear more selective than perhaps they really are, it’s possible that there simply isn’t a clear point in time after the initial file that would equal when a college application has been filed. I have heard criticism of USNA for taking thus too far and reporting candidate postcards as applications
I have heard the same about the USNA. I think that it is important for applicants to realize that the more of your application you complete…the greater the chances of admission. Not sure that is true with the Ivies. I believe I’ve read somewhere that if you are a fully qualified applicant to the USMA (application completed)…your chances for admission (Appointment) are about 50%.
Aglages, you cannot imply that if an applicant completely fills out the application, then his/her chances for admission are 50% – that’s misleading. You must factor in the congressional appointment which is a requirement as well. I’ve heard that IF a candidate is deemed triple qualified (academically, physically, and medically – many are DQd for the slightest medical issue) and IF they are awarded a nomination (not an easy task) THEN the odds of admission can be as great as 50%.
I believe in order to be “fully qualified” you must have a nomination. You can’t receive an Appointment without one…therefor you are not fully qualified without a nomination. We seem to agree that your odds of admission can be as great as 50%…IF you are fully qualified. I think this number is a more realistic representation of an applicants odds than 9%. As an “expert” at USMA admissions it would be helpful if you gave percentages of those that finish their applications, those that don’t pass DoDMERB, aren’t academically qualified, or fail the PFT, or those that aren’t recommended by their MALO. I stand by my statement that an applicants chances are substantially greater than 9% if all they do is manage to fill out the application. Closer to 50% if they are “fully qualified”.
Aplages, last year there were 13,827 applications started for West Point. 4,120 candidates received nominations. 2,360 were deemed academically and physically qualified. 1,257 were accepted.
jc40, of the 13,827 applications (actually files “started”) how many filled out more of their applications than the bare minimum (SSN, DOB, HS grad year)?
https://candidate.usma.edu/guest/cq/dad_pcq_part1.cfm?field1=BW
Also didn’t the 2,360 who were deemed academically and physically qualified ALSO have nominations (included in the 4,120 nomination stat)?
Weren’t there actually more than 1257 that were accepted (received Appointments)? How many reported for R Day vs how many that were actually offered Appointments?
If an applicant does not get into Harvard/Yale/Princeton during his/her first attempt when graduating HS, what’s the chances of reapplying the following year and gaining admission? Same as West Point?
Anybody can regurgitate the Class of 2014 USMA profile. Do you have any real insight?
Naturally, there were students who were offered USMA appointments who opted not to go. Some of these had offers at USNA or USAFA and elected to go there or vice versa. The same could be said, though, for ivy cross acceptances. I’m certainly not refuting that it’s exceedingly difficult to gain acceptance into an ivy. All I’m saying is that admission to a service academy is no cake walk and is also very challenging. They’re interested in a specific type of applicant, and the process is exceedingly long and arduous. This is why many do not follow through and actually complete every phase of the app. It’s unlike any other admission process. Our daughter, for instance, applied to med school two years ago. Most would contend that med school apps are among the most tedious and time consuming especially since there are multiple essays which must be written, and applicants must cast a very wide net due to the uber-competitive nature of the process. She was blessed and had multiple offers; however, I would contend our son’s experience this past year for the service academies was equally as tedious. Multiple forms had to be signed and submitted, optometry and physician exams had to be completed, fitness tests had to be taken, apps for nominations had to be filed, etc., etc. For us, there was the added documentation for a medical waiver appeal as well. Long story short, he’s a happy West Point plebe, but it was most certainly no easy feat. They make the process difficult to ensure only those who are truly dedicated to service are considered.
I will agree with all that you posted. My son is a recent (2015) graduate of USAFA and during the admissions process also received an LOA from the USMA. That said…the numbers (9% Appointments) are not a direct comparison to Ivy League admissions. Another point that could be made is that many students that have been accepted to Ivy League schools could NOT (if they desired) receive an Appointment to a SA. While most (not all) of those that receive Appointments would have the necessary academic credentials to be accepted to at a least one of the Ivy League schools. JMPO…
Well, I get the sense that West Point applicants are highly self-selecting, and so, even if the school accepted a high percentage of “students who actually filled out an application,” it wouldn’t mean that the student body is suddenly any less accomplished.
I think that military academies deter a lot of students from applying in the first place. I’d imagine a vast number of students never apply because they have absolutely no intention of ever joining the military – not to mention, most people probably also have no chance of passing the physical fitness exam.
So really, I think it is fair that military academies have a different set of rules when it comes to reporting admissions results. It’s not like applying to an Ivy and it shouldn’t be treated like it is.
For anyone interested, here are the stats for the incoming USMA class of 2019 as presented in the Welcome Brief to parents by the leader team at R-Day:
Class of 2019 - By the Numbers
14,635 Applicants
3,833 Nominated
2,364 Qualified
1,263 Admitted
1254 SAT Avg
28 ACT Avg
96 Valedictorians
165 Class Presidents
827 Team Captains
1,111 Varsity Letters
278 / 22.0% Women
190 / 15.0% Blacks
144 / 11.3% Hispanics
99 / 7.8 Asian Pacific
17 Int’l Cadets
15 Combat Vets
Academically, the class, though strong, is not in the same league as the very top civilian colleges, but academics are only one facet of an SA education. Students at the SAs are there to become officers and leaders in our armed services, and the SAs are tops in producing what they are designed to produce. Applicants to service academies are not asking themselves how the academies rank against the Ivies. They are asking , “Do I want to serve as an officer in one of our military branches?”
If an applicant is concerned about how the SAs stack up against civilian colleges, an SA may not be for that applicant.
Average ACTs of 28 are nowhere near the level of any Ivy. Plus students don’t have the time to spend on academics. It is nothing like an Ivy League education.
However, it is certainly true that most students admitted to Ivies wouldn’t meet the requirements for West Point. Also, the service academies are effective in what they are designed to do, training military leaders.
The main reason the Naval Academy had 4 Rhodes Scholars is that the criteria for a Rhodes Scholarship are similar to those for admission to a service academy: they require leadership and athletics.
The 28 ACT average is slightly misleading. The ACT/SAT scores of existing service members, recruited athletes and URMs are included in that number. Direct admits that are not in one of those categories have MUCH higher average standardized test scores.
13% of student admitted to Ivies are recruited athletes and they also have many students admitted for various reason s who do not meet the usual requirements.
Service academies are at most the equivalent of a top 30 school, not top Ivies. It is hard to say because it is so different with physical requirements etc., nomination required, no tuition etc. However, many graduates of top 30 schools are doctors and lawyers and such and have similar career levels to service academy graduates.
It is difficult to make it through Ranger school or whatever, but many people who do that are not college level academically, much less West Point level or Harvard level.
That 5:20 mile, 18 pull ups, 75 push ups in 2 mins, 95 modified sit ups in 2 mins, 7.8s shuffle run, and 102 ft kneeling basketball throw. Those are all the maximum that you can do, if you can do that you’ll do amazing and fly through all the physical tests that West Point will put you through. I haven’t seen anyone actually complete the CFA maxed out though, and while it IS a part of admissions process because West Point is a very physically challenging academy, fitness can be taught. What is more important is the potential for leadership and overall academic achievement with about a 10% weight on your CFA. When I went to West Point for a college visit I asked the Commander how important the CFA is and he told me that while it is important that you are fit, it is more important that you look promising academically and leadership wise.
The difficult part of this discussion is that you can’t just look at an acceptance % and compare schools - especially a service academy vs. a civilian university. The application process is completely different and the applicants are completely different. ‘Difficulty to get in’ can’t even really be measured by the acceptance rate, as some people will never apply to one school or the other simply because they KNOW they can’t get in. The final number that is spit out for each school is simply a stat for that school and not one to be compared to another.
If the goal here is to tell others how hard it was for you or your son or your daughter to get into the school of their choice, let’s just say you can feel confident in your bragging if you/they got into West Point or the Ivy League schools. In either case, it’s a wonderful accomplishment and one to be proud of. Plus, anyone who gets into any of those schools is truly the best of the best of young kids in our country - it’s a highly selective process that is difficult to navigate and qualify. Add in that the schools will offer a challenging and rewarding environment and produce kids that will go on to do more - a West Point kid is probably very different than a Harvard kid at graduation, but both are an excellent product that are well-prepared to be very successful in life. Great schools; great kids who get in.
With all the comments about leadership, academic ability, and fitness in mind, how far set back would I be in the admissions process if I’m well above average academically, have lead several clubs, performed above average on the CFA, but am only in 1 JV sport without a leadership role? For perspective I’ve been in this sport sophomore year, junior year, and will be senior year.