@Undercrackers I agree that berkeley is much better than ivies educationally but just lower in prestige that’s all I was saying
I do realize that prestige is super important in the college game. Perception is everything, and it’s very hard to change perceptions.
@Undercrackers and therein lies the problem, you can’t keep increasing enrollment without decreasing the quality of the education, all publics suffer from this, courses with 300+ students…might as well do it online.
@astrophysicistx, what makes you say Berkeley is better than the Ivies educationally?
I think @astrophysicistx may be generalizing, but if “Berkeley is much better than the ivies educationally” in some way refers to the real or perceived grade inflation of ivies as a whole vs. the grade deflation that tends to happen at Berkeley (in comparison), then the statement is not off the mark. An EECS graduate with a 3.5 GPA from an ivy may not be the equivalent of one from Cal.
Depends on which Ivy your talking about (people tend to lump them together when they’re quite different), I would disagree if your talking about Cornell Columbia, or Princeton, maybe even Penn, for the rest it’s probably true.
Overall, I’d say Berkeley’s rep has gone down a lot the past few years. It’s not just the political stuff, it’s a combination of years of ineffective leadership, terrible budgeting, sex assault scandals, bad publicity, community backlash, terrible housing policies, etc. The long-term affects will likely not be evident for quite some time, but they’re coming.
Another Berkeley protest that ends in violence:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/birthplace-free-speech-movement-braces-fight-49449510
“Berkeley police chief Andrew Greenwood defended how police handled the protest, saying they made a strategic decision to let the anarchists enter to avoid more violence.” Yeah, well, just the opposite occurred.
It looks like Berkeley’s financial troubles have impacted its standing in at least one major university ranking. On top of its decline in public perception, the school is operating in the red and it has affected its research capability.
“The University of Pennsylvania is the only newcomer to the top 10, climbing three places to joint 10th, while the University of California, Berkeley has fallen out of this elite group, sliding eight places to 18th. The main driver of Berkeley’s decline is a large drop in its research income per academic.”
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/world-university-rankings-2018-results-announced
These two articles go further into detail regarding Cal’s money problems.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-uc-berkeley-deficit-20160210-story.html
^ UCLA is now three slots above UCB in that ranking.
@whatisyourquest on top of that, UCLA moved up 3 spots this year to tie Berkeley for #1 public university in another ranking: US News and World Report
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public
The civil unrest that continues to unfurl on the Cal campus either scares parents or annoys them - kids getting into both schools this year are tending to lean to UCLA, when 2 years ago, it would have been Cal, no question. UCLA is the “safe” choice for a top UC, until it isn’t. All we parents of current students can do is sigh and remind our kids to steer clear of the conflict so they can get on with getting a top-notch education.
No doubt, that UCLA moving up to tie with Berkeley has affected Berkeley’s prestige value. USC too? That said, it is possible that Berkeley could be toppled in its #1 spot next year by UCLA? Only time will tell. UCLA gets more apps, because historically it’s been easier to gain admission over Berkeley. So more selective = higher rank???
@Undercrackers At our SoCal HS, students have overwhelmingly chosen Berkeley over UCLA the last couple of years - about 32-16 this year. Last year 40+ kids chose Berkeley and UCLA was in the mid teens. Prior to that the numbers were usually about the same. So what you’re seeing is not happening everywhere. As a Cal alum and parent of a Bruin, I think they’re both great.
^^^They really ARE both great! Men in Capes (a la superheros) in the UCLA marching band…who else has this? Don’t know if Cal can compete with this.
@preppedparent Supposedly, student selectivity only accounts for 12.5% of what is factored into a school’s ranking, according to US News’ own ranking methodology. However, since we are talking about very similar schools, small changes in selectivity could have an impact in rankings since a lot of top schools are often neck and neck in undergraduate categories. And slight changes in one area can shift the rankings.
The latest ranking that puts UCLA and Berkeley at a tie is partially based on the class of 2020’s admit statistics. In the 2020 class, Berkeley was stronger in admit profile and acceptance rate. But, UCLA was still placed at #1 with Cal when the rankings came out a few days ago. That means that UCLA did well enough in the other criteria to warrant a promotion in ranking. The other factors that are taken into account include:
Financial resources
Graduation rate performance
Alumni giving rate
Faculty resources
Graduation and retention rates
Undergraduate academic reputation
(I must note that these are not all weighted equally.)
Since UCLA performed strongly in the above categories, despite being slightly “easier” to get into than Berkeley, it was ranked #1 along with Cal. UCLA did well enough to move up 3 spots from the previous year. And Cal was demoted by 1 spot, leaving them at a tie for #1 public school.
So, a year from now, the rankings will reflect the statistics of the class who just began school this Fall: the class of 2021. And since the 2021 class is UCLA’s strongest and most selective class ever (in terms of GPA, SAT/ACT scores, applications received, and acceptance rate) you might see UCLA take sole possession of the top spot and Berkeley slip a place since their acceptance rate went up and their admit profile down. This could be enough to give UCLA sole possession of the top spot assuming they remain strong in the other criteria.
To add to this, Berkeley is dealing with financial problems. They have a big budget deficit that is taking its toll on the school. This is like affecting financial resources and faculty resources: two of the major factors that go into the ranking. In addition, there’s the “Undergraduate academic reputation” factor where US News surveys thousands of school presidents, provosts, deans of admissions, and high school counselors on “intangibles” regarding various schools. Their input has impact on the rankings, and if these folks have been exposed to the mountain of bad press Berkeley’s received the past 2 years, it could’ve possibly had an effect on how they reviewed the school. But this last point is just me speculating.
@preppedparent It is weird to go to UCLA and hear our fight song.
There are the thousands of high schools in California, so it really depends on the school. Some high schools send more kids to Cal, others send more to UCLA. At the high school near me in SoCal, a few more kids have chosen Berkeley the last few years. A lot of students prefer to explore and live in a region they’ve never lived before.
^^ @HarveyMuddBTW You’re a UCLA grad, right?