Has Wesleyan fallen behind?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Wesleyan University
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I’m a Class of 2021 student who got accepted to a few colleges including Wesleyan University.

Now I do know that Wesleyan is a great LAC that has a graduate school with excellent undergrad education.
It is also one of the "Three Little " that includes Williams and Amherst College (which resembles HYP in national univ).
I also found out that although its ranking sucks in US News (due to its low endowment), its ranked 9th in Forbes.

But reading the general comments on Wesleyan and surfing the internet, it seems that Wesleyan has fallen back from its “peer” schools as a top-notch LAC. I may be wrong. But continuing my research on this college, it seems that although Wesleyan had once been a prestigious institution located in New England with lots of money, it now has fallen behind. Its seems to have an aristocratic feeling that used to thrive under rich white families’ “old money.” (Old professors would know Wesleyan// but don’t think most 21st century kids would).

Once again I do realize that it still provides excellent education. But doing my research on this institution, not much articles regarding its excellence came out since 2010~2012. While students used to compare Wesleyan with other top private schools, that doesn’t seem to be happening anymore.

USC gave me 38k and Wesleyan gave me 38k. So I’m deciding between the two. I do like Wesleyan; its just that while USC has a “growing” and “improving” vibrant atmosphere, Wesleyan seemed to grow dormant on its accomplishments. Also comments on Niche (however accurate they may be) seemed to tell me that spending about 30k for Wesleyan is ****. I guess it wasn’t worth the tuition for them?

What school do you recommend me going to? I’m a US citizen planning to pursue political science or international relations.
Any help would be appreciated.

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ooops. this was the original post I wrote… which disappeared for several HOURS after clicking save. So I had to write a NEW post which is the one above this. Just ignore this post :slight_smile:

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Ahh well. Here is the post that I had to rewrite…

I’m a student who got accepted to Wesleyan including a few other colleges like Rice and USC (Can’t go to Rice though due to financial issue).

I do know that Wesleyan offers a great undergrad education with research opps at a grad school.
It is also a member of the “Three Little” schools that resembles the “Big Three (HYP)”.
Although its ranking sucked in US News, it has ranked 9th in Forbes.

But all the past records aside, I get the feeling that Wesleyan has fallen behind from its peer schools (Williams, Amherst, Pomona, CMC…etc). While schools like USC is rising fast through its investments, Wesleyan’s accomplishments seems to have become dormant since 2010. Students are no longer contemplating whether to go to Wesleyan or not (There is no longer X school vs Wesleyan threads since 2010~2012). These, along with Niche reviews on how spending money on Wesleyan is a waste, gave me an impression that while Wesleyan used to be prestigious with New England LAC education, it is going downhill as days are passing. (So… while old professors would know the school, 21st century kids won’t… get the feeling…? Kinda like Georgetown University feeling but has more “old” feeling that is about to pass away.)

When I think about Wesleyan, I get the feeling that aristocratic rich white old money has dried up and is currently sustaining its position through the glories of the past. Is that how it really is?

I received 38k from both Wesleyan and USC and is trying to decide which to attend. And while I DO love the undergrad education Wesleyan can provide, I’m worried that Wesleyan seems to be going downhill.

I’m a US citizen interested in pursuing political science or international relations who is intending to pursue a professional career after grad school. And yes money is an issue for me; though I don’t live to earn money, I hope to at least earn what I’ve spent as my college tuition and help out my parents.

Should I go to Wes or USC?
Any insights, opinions, and help would be appreciated.

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@harvard2021 Seems like you want to be convinced to go to Wesleyan. I agree with you regarding your assessment of generalized perceptions of Wesleyan versus USC. I don’t have any facts or personal basis, just a gut feel from being involved in the college admissions process for the past few years as a parent and considering lots of schools including top 100 national Universities and LACs based on USNews&World Report. And knowing an alumni who went into huge debt at Wesleyan and regrets going there. Based on popularity, USC had over 51,000 applications for the 2015 entering class versus 9,000 for Wesleyan, with a similar 20% acceptance rate. Not sure what the 2016 or 2017 numbers are. Since you feel the way you do already, I think you would be happier at USC.

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I think the lesson here is that Niche is a lousy resource. That is not a narrative that matches anything I have read on College Confidential. You’ve obviously missed all the fanfare surrounding Wesleyan’s rise as a major player in popular culture, way more influential than you might imagine from an undergraduate college of 2,900 students. It may not be your grandfather’s version of Wesleyan which was basically an earnest men’s college, but it’s one that most Wesleyan folk embrace with enthusiasm.

The latest numbers are northward of 12,000 applicants. Wesleyan is the most popular LAC in America.

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As a Wesleyan parent, I am surprised by your post. Have you visited the school? Sat in on a class? Evaluated the differences in class sizes? If you are more concerned with arbitrary rankings than educational quality, perhaps Wesleyan is not a good fit.

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Curious: Have you visited Wesleyan? What made you apply in the first place? What are your real of academic interest?

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Thanks for all the comments!!!

No I haven’t been able to go to Wesleyan (or USC in that sense) since I don’t live in the US. No one in my country really knows much about Wesleyan; those who do know what LAC is only know high-ranking LACs like Williams.

@Deaston And while I do understand that rankings are arbitrary, it is one of the only things (if not all) along with some student reviews here and there to gauge how Wesleyan is really like. That was why I wrote this post. I would like to be convinced that attending Wesleyan would be the best; its just that I couldn’t find much reasons since most positive posts mentioning Wesleyan were at least 5~6 years old (I really couldn’t get why it was like this if Wesleyan had been improving; hence my worry of the “downhill-trend.”)

I personally do not like all the sporty and greek atmosphere of USC. Wesleyan’s academic focused atmosphere, in that sense, was more appealing. Its only that I couldn’t find stronger reasons that would help me make the deposit.

@doschicos Um… I applied since it was an LAC I heard of… My academic interests lies on East Asian International Politics – my dream is to help reunify the two Koreas peacefully; I would most likely to go to a grad school and later work in the government.

P.S sorry for my nickname; made it quite a while ago.

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Many international students just cannot understand these schools until you visit. Spend a few days, go to some classes, stay overnight. Comparing USC to Wesleyan for studying government is not really in the same relevant universe as maybe comparing USC to Wesleyan for Film. USC is a large school. It will have large classes and early intro classes will be taught by TAs and you will have a student body that is very different from Wesleyan or any of the LACs or IVYs on the east coast. Although rankings change over time, the types of students who normally choose to go to the top LACs or IVYs tend to be much more intellectual and intuitive than just ‘book smart’ and ‘test smart’ As far as prestige is concerned maybe in Seoul they are more likely to have heard of USC, after all its larger and in Californina. But if you were to seek moving on to graduate studies in government or maybe try and get a DC internship the likely assumption by the people who would be looking to enroll or hire you would be that USC is an academically inferior school to Wesleyan and they would assume you are of lower caliber having gone to USC. Now if you were doing film, and looking to get a job in LA, that would maybe not be the case, but otherwise it will be. Also be aware that Wesleyan is extremely liberal and very focused on social justice issues. If you are more conservative and are not used to or particularly enjoy defending your political views and ideas then go to USC.

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Here’s my comment as someone with no affiliation with either school.

USC is “hot” but that does not mean that it is good. USC’s appeal lies not in its academics, but in the glamour of its spots teams, LA location, and historic affiliation with Hollywood. That is why it gets 51,000 applicants. No one who isn’t a film student ever has USC first on their list for academic reasons.

In reality, USC is huge. It has over 40 thousand students and over 19,000 undergrads, which means large impersonal classes and bureaucracy and all the rest. USC basically provides a huge public university experience but charges tuition like an intimate private college. In this way, it is far more similar to Boston University or NYU than it is to a school like Wesleyan.

Now, you may want the things that USC provides. Many people do. But I have no doubt that the overall Academic Experience for a typical student, including quality of classes, access to professors, research and internships, all will be better at Wesleyan.

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I’m looking at Niche now and see Williams rated a 3.7/5, just like Wesleyan is. Swarthmore is a 3.6, Middlebury is a 3.7. I’m looking at the most recent reviews and they’re all pretty great. On page 2, one sophomore chose to be very adamant about their negative experiences, but I doubt he or she is representative of Wesleyan. I think that’s the thing to realize with these websites; some times the placement of certain comments will lead us to think they’re representative of the experience everyone has.

I think your fear is stemming more from US News, where Wesleyan fell pretty substantially this year. In my honest opinion, US News is an awful metric for how good your own experience will be. Things like faculty salaries, peer assessment, admission rate, and alumni donation rate will literally say nothing for your experience. As the largest of the top LACs and the poorest per capita, it’s difficult for Wesleyan to do well against its peers. But take a look at outcomes: http://www.wesleyan.edu/careercenter/career-outcomes.html Forbes is also an outcome based metric, and Wesleyan ranks 3rd among the LACs. I think Wesleyan is absolutely an elite liberal arts college because despite its size and finances (which are still higher per capita than USC), it is providing a comparable education and post-graduate outcomes as the others. There are some aspects where Wesleyan is the very best, such as science research funding and its film/media department.

I have no personal connection with Wesleyan, and I have regarded it as a peer school to all the colleges you mentioned (I’m a graduate of one of them). I think most people who are intimate with LACs will agree as well.

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From USNews:

USC:
Overall score 77/100
4 year graduation rate: 77%
ranking: #23
classes with less than 20 students: 60%

Wesleyan:
84/100
4 year graduation rate: 92%
ranking: #21
classes with less than 20 students: 72%

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Quite seriously, the USNWR NLAC category includes 239 schools, and they stop reading before they get to 21?

In any event, Wes and USC appear to be comparable when viewed by entering standardized scoring factors, with both appearing below among the top 50 nationally:

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-610-smartest-colleges-in-america-2015-9

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So my two cents. I am a Wesleyan alum who grew up overseas, never visited before attending and majored in International Politics. Though to be clear closer to having kids in Wesleyan than being there myself.

In all honesty I do think Wesleyan has lost a little momentum, but in my mind many of things that have been losing rankings are not relevant to one’s education. They have also always positioned as a school that is a bit different/progressive so I think you get equally bright people but a bit less test focused and more creative. Neither is better but a personality element.

They had a strong East Asian studies department when I was there - can’t comment on today. Someone mentioned applicants - but when you don’t control for a class size that is far smaller it is a invalid comparison. I suppose you could compare applicants per Freshman spot and guessing they would be similar. The key to me is how important is “name brand value” and what sort of school do you want?

USC has a stronger brand and name recognition - and sure it is MUCH stronger in Asia. It is on the West Coast, it is bigger and yes it has a great set of sports teams. People will know the school when you say it and it might have more value for finding a job in LA. That said it won’t be any stronger with graduate schools.

All that said the single biggest thing would be type of environment you want. Neither is inherently better. I came from a small international school - I did not want 5000 people in my Freshman class. Wesleyan is smaller and in a small city. You will recognize and get to know people. Have more informal chats and conversations with professors and students and likely have smaller classes. That said USC will have 15 Econ 101 classes so you can fit to your schedule - though they may all be 3x as big. Wesleyan is a small critical thinking liberal arts school. USC is not. Not saying one is better - but the college environment is different and you need to choose. For extracurricular activities you will likely have better and deeper programs and clubs at USC, but you might be able to do 5 things at Wesleyan whereas only 2 at USC since the sheer number of folks fills up all the say … DJ slots at the station.

Wesleyan is about Wesleyan and your experience with students and faculty. USC can be that but could also be about LA. I don’t think either is inherently better - but I think the choice is easy. Stop looking at data and lists. Sop equivocating and decide which sounds better to you and how you want to learn and live for a few years. Which environments sounds more interesting? Pick on that - not lists.

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@harvard2021 I would be careful about your sources. I wouldn’t use the lack of “Wesleyan vs X” threads, one or two anecdotes about a grumpy alum, or the US News ranking alone to tell you about the quality of a school. As a few other posters have mentioned above, Wesleyan significantly outperforms USC when it comes to graduation rates and small class sizes (this is reflected in Wesleyan’s very strong Forbes rating, which actually uses outcomes in its methodology). Wesleyan’s acceptance rate this year was 15.4% (applications to Wes climbed 10% this year), virtually identical with USC. Both have 95-96% freshman retention rates, so students are quite happy at both places.

It’s true that Wesleyan’s endowment fell behind Amherst and Williams, but Wes just completed a $480 million capital campaign and is trying to catch up, and has gotten its finances back in order. Aristocratic old money sustaining Wes is absolutely not what is going on. You have alums like Bill Belichick, Bradley Whitford, and Joss Whedon filling Wesleyan’s coffers. Old accomplishments? Heard of the new smash hit Broadway musical Hamilton? Written by a Wes alum, directed by a Wes alum. TV shows How I Met Your Mother, Mad Men, Game of Thrones? All Wes alumni.

As for name recognition, sure Amherst and Williams are likely the most recognizable LACs as they flip flop #1 in various rankings, but I’d challenge you to find someone who has heard of Middlebury or Bowdoin and not Wesleyan. Wesleyan has more famous alumni (largely due to pop culture) than any other LAC.

Though it sounds like you already want to go to USC.

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Thank you so much for all the inputs!!!
Thank you guys so much

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@harvard2021 There is a thread like this with someone asking about Bowdoin vs. USC that you should read.

Wesleyan/USC is not quite as extreme as Bowdoin/USC, which is quite possibly two of the “most different” “elite” schools you could imagine, from all sorts of perspectives. But SC and Wes are still two vastly geographically, philosophically, conceptually, intrinsically (I’m out of ally-ies) different schools.

I’m from a long line of Connecticut-centered NE/Northeast and live in CA with a kid at USC. I just can’t imagine a student walking onto USC and Wes campuses and not knowing, or at least having an extremely strong feeling, that one makes way more sense than the other.

Trying to make this decison by ranking “stats” is a fools errand. The questions are really simple:
Super-Urban gentrifying mega-school/Picturesque, rust belt meets NYC bedroom milltown
40,000 + students, grads, TAs, Profs/3k UG, few grads, 40,000 in all of Middletown
California/New England
Large research U/LAC
D1 INSANE (like maybe too much for some) sports culture/DIII sports with great NE college rivalry.
Where do you want to live after? (“Trojan Family”/Network super strong, but mostly in CA, esp SoCal. Wesleyan will be strongest in NE.

It’s all about fit.
Are you going to “vibe” better with small-town historical Conn, or super-urban, hot, sunny, ramen and pupusa truck LA?
Would you rather spend a Sat walking to the Natural Hist museum or a Rams game or hiking along the Connecticut river?
Unless there is a specific program/prof/opportunity that you MUST do, the academics will be similar to the point of indistinguishable. (SAT range is similar. GPA is similar. USC will have more Palos Verde and OC kids. Wes more NY suburbs… Profs essentially from same pool.)
But the school culture is completely different. Do you want a small, intimate school that is the night out equivilent of a Meg Meyers/Passenger concert in a packed 50 person coffee shop with local micro-brew where you can see the sweat drip off Passenger’s lip as you sit on a rickety bentwood chair eyeing a girl in a Bean barn jacket.
Or do you want a school that could be a city unto itself. Lolapolooza with dayglo face paint, a drunk guy puking in the corner, Foo Fighters playing after Girl Talk with an LAPD helicopter circling the parking lot headlighting an unrelated Grand Theft Auto arrest.

The experience of going to Wes will be 100% different than that of going to USC. And either will be awesome if that’s the experience you want. But rankings won’t tell you much. Talking to current students, alum, profs and visiting should be what you really need at this point.

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Wesleyan might be better described as a MGMT/Das Racist concert with a little Hamilton soundtrack thrown in. :smiley:

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@CaliDad2020 Thanks a lot.