haverford or swarthmore

Colleges and Universities A-Z Haverford College
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<p>That is absolutely not true. A serious musician needs other serious musicians to play with. A musician CANNOT develop in a vacuum.</p>

<p>Paid lessons at a distance away, even if it's only a half hour, can be a detriment to a practice schedule.</p>

<p>My S (pianist, violist, violinist -- seems to be settling in on viola for performance) decided against U of Chicago which he loved because his teachers would have to be in "the city" and he felt this would be time consuming and difficult.</p>

<p>He practices two hours daily along with other work. Music theory courses which involve keyboard work also take at least an hour a day and meet every day.</p>

<p>A serious musician needs more support than a weekly lesson.</p>

<p>Williams is a much better choice for a serious musician. The composition courses are phenomenal and the Berkshire Symphony is semi-professional. Half the performers are or were professionals or professional caliber. The teachers play in it.</p>

<p>However, I am sure Haverford, Swat or Bryn Mawr all attract musicians of sufficient caliber that the orchestra provided would satisfy most.</p>

<p>Bard is also an excellent destination for a serious musician who wants a liberal arts education as is Oberlin and the Ivies. The most serious musician DS knows (won every composition award a young musician can take and is a cellist) attends Princeton. Yale is not as appealing because the undergrads are not welcome at the Yale School of Music according to my understanding. I could be wrong.</p>

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<p>froghorn--</p>

<p>NO! well maybe we did, but I'm really good at missing all of the important deadlines/emails. I know that the customs groups at ford go over to meet our sister (or is it cousin?) customs groups at BMC sometime during the week.</p>

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<p>Mythmom, I think “cathedrals” is very appropriate when discussing colleges. It’s interesting that cathedrals were built (ideally) to commune with divinity by creating a sense of tradition and awe. Even though the intent was something celestial, cathedral building often became a contest of who had the bigger dome or tallest spire. Even though colleges are (ideally) about the purity of knowledge and personal development, like cathedrals of the past, there is also competition too. I agree competition doesn’t speak to the ideals and history of either HC or SC (you know Nixon was a Quaker too, right?). </p>

<p>Froghorn, BMC is diverse. International students generally top 10% and there are the McBride scholars as well… accomplished women in their 30-50s who are given a chance to go to BMC because circumstances didn’t allow them to attend college prior. As a minority person who went to HC when it was 19% minority, I really don’t think there’s much difference between 27% to 31% or even 40% as having “diversity” has more to do with how outgoing you are and how you approach other people than numbers alone. </p>

<p>Interested Dad, I really hope you got more out of my reply than tacking on “Swahili” (BMC), “Italian”(BMC) and “Bronze casting”(HC) to your list as that wasn’t my intent. Even though the majority of Swat’s departments are smaller than those of BMC, HC and BMC/HC, I’m sure if you comb through the course catalog, you will find topics covered at Swat and not in the Bi-college. It’s really futile to list every single difference in curriculum between Bi-co and Swat, and it’s an unnecessary distraction for applicants as well IMO. My point is that, with about 312 faculty to 181, odds are greater for providing greater breadth and depth of coursework… and to make my point, I listed those examples. </p>

<p>If people are interested in understanding the differences in academics/extra-curriculars, the comparison should be Bi-college and Swat. If people are interested in understanding the social difference between the schools, then it’s BMC, HC and SC. People should itemize their "must haves" with a college experience and then seach each college site accordingly. In the case of HC, one should also search the BMC site too as they function like 2 halves of a whole.</p>

<p>Woohoo!!! Several colleges have honor codes (academic, social or both). I think it’s not the honor code itself that makes HC unique but rather the process, tradition, and intent that go into it. An honor code developed out of military culture or southern chivalry (UVA, Davidson and the academies) is conceptualized and implemented much differently than one borne out of Quaker traditions of “inner light” and consensus. Mistakes will happen and people will cheat, but it’s how the community responds to these things that makes having an honor code like HC’s valuable. If it’s perfect, then you’re not going to learn from it. Just something to ponder over the next few years… </p>

<p>Memake I think Swat’s performing arts are stronger. Two of my classmates were music majors… one went to Julliard for piano and the other is in residency for ophthalmology. I think the music department at HC is very good but I know my classmates had other reasons to go to HC.. Just to clarify a comment above, I believe music students already have regular on-campus practices with professors (for most instruments) but the $ for students to go off campus and to Curtis is additional... to get a new style or a new perspective. If other aspects of the Bi-college resonate with your child, then you should consider it. If the sole reason you would consider HC/BMC is the music department, then there are places with stronger reputations (namely, Oberlin and Williams, and then Swat).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Interested Dad, I really hope you got more out of my reply than tacking on “Swahili” (BMC), “Italian”(BMC) and “Bronze casting”(HC) to your list as that wasn’t my intent.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What I would like to get out of somebody's posts from Haverford and BMC are additions to the list of a-level unique qualities from people who know the schools. I'm think that somebody from Bi-Co can probably do better than bronze-casting, but at least you gave us a start.</p>

<p>I think I provided a list of truly unique qualities about Swarthmore that are either 100% unique or place it in a handful of liberal arts colleges. For example, Swarthmore is one of the two most diverse co-ed elite colleges or universities on the East Coast, the other being Harvard. </p>

<p>I know that you can come up with some for Haverford.</p>

<p>BTW, be careful recommending Oberlin for non-conservatory students. People assume that, because Oberlin has a conservatory, there are endless music opportunities for regular Oberlin students. That may or may not be the case as they are competing against the conservatory students. Kind of like undergrad research opportunities in a PhD department.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I believe music students already have regular on-campus practices with professors (for most instruments) but the $ for students to go off campus and to Curtis is additional... to get a new style or a new perspective.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Correct. The discussion was not about your run-of-the-mill piano or violin playing college music major, but about opportunities for the exceptional music student, who will almost certainly want to continue private tutoring with a master player.</p>

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<p>See above about time out of schedule. Ideally, the college provides players of sufficient merit for individual lessons even for an advanced candidate. Of course, in some cases this isn't true, but in many it is. Both the violin and piano faculty at Williams, for example, are excellent. The chair won a national composition contest this year. Not sure about the viola faculty yet. The choral director is amazing. The above are from first hand knowledge. The basic theory teacher was just okay, and I hear the same about the theory II teacher, too.</p>

<p>All who attend Oberlin attest to the many, many opportunities for non-conservatory students. This wasn't the right place for my S, but for many it would be. And a musician of that caliber who auditioned would certainly be accepted in some Conservatory ensembles as well.</p>

<p>And S's first violin teacher, who attended Oberlin, began in the college, worked so hard and had so many opportunities that she transferred to the Conservatory as a junior, not behind the other kids at all.</p>

<p>This is even more true of Bard. S was accepted EA and applied to the Conservatory very late. They had already filled their very tiny class (not saying he would have been accepted otherwise, but may have been), but the director of the Conservatory wrote him a letter assuring him he would have all the opportunities of the Conservatory students.</p>

<p>The OP and her son know best what would support this young musician the most. For some, yes, traveling to NYC from Princeton, to Phila. from Swat, to downtown Chicago from Hyde Park, would be ideal. For others, it wouldn't.</p>

<p>My S would have begrudged the time away from campus and his work would have suffered. In addition, professional musicians unattached tot he college tend to have engagements that interfere with their lesson schedule. When this is combined with a college schedule it can be difficult to fit in enough lessons. Just been our experience with some of the amazing teachers S has had.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The OP and her son know best what would support this young musician the most.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The original poster didn't ask about music for her daughter.</p>

<p>Your mileage may vary, but I wouldn't even consider paying $45,000+ a year at a school, such as Bard, that does not make its financial reports readily available.</p>

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<p>I meant the original poster of the question about music. And yes, gender was not specified.</p>

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<p>On cross registration: From various articles in the shared Bryn Mawr/Haverford student newspaper, The Bi-Co News, it appears that about 750 BMC students take at least one course at Haverford each year and vice versa.</p>

<p>in a recent semester (2004 or 5) 109 Bryn Mawr students took a course at Swartmore. 33 Swarthmore students took a course at Bryn Mawr.</p>

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<p>Hi everyone. I guess I don't check this thread often enough! </p>

<p>My daughter the h.s. senior is a cellist. She has visited Oberlin and a double degree there is one of her top choices at the moment. She has a fair amount of information about opportunities there for non-conservatory kids at her level and on her instrument, and even if she is only admitted to the college, she could probably make it work out very well. For her. Other instruments/performing ability/ambition levels might differ.</p>

<p>She has also visited Swarthmore (unfortunately, in the summer when few students were around) and was very impressed. Features of Swarthmore that she loved: the honors option, the no-grade first semester, the sense of egalitarianism, communitarianism and consensus, the commitment to academic excellence, lack of professional sports .... I'm sure I'm forgetting some (the result of seeing 8 colleges over 5 days). She also is aware of Swarthmore's commitment to music performance (through subsidizing private lessons and travel fees for students based on audition), the potential availability of teachers from Temple and Curtis (I realize how unlikely this is, but still...) and of the fact that usually there are other fabulous musicians at S. to play with. Many LACs that might otherwise be interesting to her DO NOT HAVE THESE THREE FEATURES. Again, by 'fabulous musicians' I mean kids who turned down opportunities at places like Oberlin, Peabody, Eastman. She hasn't been through the audition cycle yet so it's all just an estimate right now, but that's the kind of conservatory that would be a 'match/reach' for her. Needless to say, she also liked many of the features common to most of the top LAC's, and I only listed things that seem especially to be strengths of Swarthmore. By the way, she doesn't know what she wants to major in, but she has decided she is not interested in getting a performance degree only.</p>

<p>Reading this thread (which is mostly very informative and thought-provoking; thank you all) I began to wonder whether she is over-estimating Swarthmore's strength compared to other LAC's in music-performance-related issues. Her college list is long enough already, so I'm a bit reluctant to bring up new schools without compelling reason. So I'm grateful for the information about Haverford and Bryn Mawr.</p>

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<p>Mythmom, thanks for sharing your son's experiences. I'm pretty sure my daughter would not mind a trip from Swarthmore to Philly for a lesson, and she's also used to being jerked around by her teacher's performance schedule. </p>

<p>Actually, Princeton and Yale are both pretty interesting to my daughter too -- I'd say she has plenty of excellent schools on her list and has more trouble finding safeties she can be as excited about! Don't want to hijack this thread any further than I already have, though. I really enjoyed learning more about the advantages of the Bi Co.</p>

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<p>One obvious difference that makes Swat unique is its functional size. Every LAC in Swat’s comparison group functions at 2000+ students either because of size, consortium arrangement or quasi-consortium arrangement.</p>

<p>Have more than 2000 kids
Wellesley, Smith, Williams, Carleton, Grinnell, Davidson, Wesleyan, Oberlin, Middlebury</p>

<p>Functionally more than 2000 kids
Bryn Mawr, Haverford, Barnard, Pomona, Harvey Mudd, CMC, Amherst (quasi consortium)</p>

<h2>I think Bowdoin is close to 1800</h2>

<p>Swat has 1450 kids and it’s in a quasi consortium so my guess is that it functions closer to approximately 1600 kids.</p>

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<p>And HC alum, you are not factoring in the kids who are abroad, particularly the juniors, all of these schools have fewer students on campus than their official numbers.</p>

<p>Just to set the record straight -- Williams has just about 2,000, whereas Barnard has 2200+. Barnard goes beyond operating as a consortium. Columbia and Barnard are part of the same community and even closer than Bryn Mawr and Haverford, as it steps across Broadway.</p>

<p>Almost all Barnard classes except first year seminars have Columbia students, and Barnard students have an almost unlimited array of classes at Columbia. My daughter's ratio has been 60% Barnard classes, 40% Columbia classes. Therefore, their community is considerably larger.</p>

<p>Williams does not send as many students abroad as most schools because many students want to stay in Williamstown to be JA's. The junior class is not as decimated. That is a good thing or a bad thing depending on one's point of view.</p>

<p>Whoops. Now I am thread hi-jacking. I was about to say more. I will restrict my comments to the factual points of number of students in attendance.</p>

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<p>Small additional point but Davidson has 1700 students, putting it just above the really-small LAC category rather than the 2000 or just over LAC category. I am not sure this makes a big difference in terms of experience, but it does mean that each class has between 400 and 450 students. In relation to the interesting point mythmom made, Davidson sends a lot of students overseas for at least a semester junior year, so for juniors the class becomes noticeably smaller one semester or another of junior year.</p>

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<p>Mattmom, I always knew Davidson was larger than HC or SC but I guess I assumed it was much larger given the # of fans I saw during the NCAA games. I guess TV really does make you appear “bigger” than you are… (well aware that the fans also included parents and alums…)</p>

<p>Regarding the size issue, I think there are real pro/cons with size… but I think it’s important for people to know where each school is on the spectrum so they can make more informed choices. A smaller size limits one’s academic opportunities but other aspects of a college experience such as a sense of community) may be enhanced. Also, a larger school in the middle of nowhere may feel socially as small as a tiny school closer to a city.</p>

<p>Regardless, I think Swat’s functional size is more of a “unique” attribute than some of the other things listed by ID. I don’t think Swat’s size should be played down like I've witnessed in past posts… it is what it is.</p>

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<p>I agree HC. Not trying to be normative in any way. I really do think this is a case of "different strokes for different folks." And a suitcase school with a larger student body will feel smaller too, especially on the weekends. There will be fewer students and fewer activities.</p>

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<p>how do you do an advanced search?</p>

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<p>I see this question (comparing Haverford and Swarthmore) was posted quite a while ago. Would love to get some recent perspectives, esp. from anyone who has recently made their college choice, or a current student/parent.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>See this thread too <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/haverford-college/96766-haverford-vs-swarthmore.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/haverford-college/96766-haverford-vs-swarthmore.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I’m glad this thread was resurrected as my DS is on the fence about Haverford while I think it would be a great match for him. He’s specifically very concerned about the “logistics” of the Bi-Co and wonders what the benefits are when, as he puts it, “you have to get on a bus and go to another campus for things you can’t get on your own.” For example, he would be interested in working on the school paper, which he understands is a Bi-Co publication. Can we shine the lens of this thread for a few moments on this issue? Any insight would be much appreciated.</p>

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<p>I think HC Alum hit the nail on the head when he talked about “functional size”: The Bi-Co offers the opportunities of a college of 2,500 students with the close-knit community of a college of 1,200 students. </p>

<p>There’s some truth in your son’s sentiment that “you have to get on a bus and go to another campus for things you can’t get on your own.” If his main concern are resources, he might be better off at a bigger university. </p>

<p>I personally appreciated the logistics of the Bi-Co because I got the benefits of a small very close-knit community as well as an easy ‘escape path’ to prevent the Bryn Mawr bubble from feeling claustrophobic. If I didn’t have Haverford, I would look much harder for opportunities to get involved in the local community off campus.</p>