Help (again) with S and college "perceptions"

Parent Cafe
1

He again everyone. You were all so helpful when I first came with helping me understand how this whole process works. The learning curve is steep! But my S is ploughing ahead.

Here is the issue right now:
My S (will be senior in fall) is fixed on ED Duke. Duke tuition is about &50k, which I can and will pay if it comes to it. We have no chance of FA.

Enter DAD! Dad is married to a nice lady and lives a mile away. He’s a good guy. He is agreed to pay half, and he will redirect support to college for R and B. So presume RB a non issue. Dad is worried about S doing ED Duke bc it is binding and “cut off all other options”. Understood. In reality, I think he may be a tiny bit overwhelmed bc, while he can afford it, he has a lot of financial craziness right now. Not short on $, just craziness. He is where I was when I came here (sticker shock, with a lot of misinformation). He also is somewhat convinced our son should do Cornell Dyson, I think bc it is so much cheaper. (NYS Residents). Tuition and logistics (airfare and the like) as it is just a few hours away. But Dyson may limit the Econ bent of his studies?

Now I spoke to DAD and told him to back off bc, like a girlfriend, any criticism makes S love Duke more. He understands. I also told him the kid had ZERO options to discuss or to cut off bc he has zero acceptances, and once he has some, we can discuss. We’ll discuss ED in August.

My S is fixated though. Kind of bewitched. I’m not sure if it is his perception of Duke, or if he really fell in love. He’s a very practical kid, so I’m thinking it may be a trophy girlfriend and not love.

Soooooo…after all that…

I have asked S to pick one school a week and scour its website to see what they offer, and we can go to those schools and find out more.

I asked DAD to consider ONLY whether he can afford and do $25k a year and ignore the rest for now.

Am I doing the right thing with Dad, and how do I get my kid to look past that bewitching blue devil? He knows even with ED it is a long shot. He has a 3.93 if 92% is a 4.0. 4.0 if 90% is 4. ACT is 34. White kid, suburban NYC public HS. No extraordinary ECs, but a few deep committments. He wants to study Econ and Spanish, go to South America on internships to study how 3rd world economies can thrive within their own confines and cultural standards (ie, not imposing a 1st world model in them), and maybe end up at. a Santander or Banamex for a while. (He is fluent espanol, but native English speaker).

What do you think folks? All thoughts welcome. I’m trying to stay back for now to give him room to be the decider, but I want to give a steer where I can, (and keep dad from trying to make the decision for him!

List besides Duke:

Michigan
Penn
Cornell
Dartmouth
UVA
William & Mary
Villanova
Bucknell
Lehigh
UNC
NEU
Tulane
Elon
Miami OH
Binghamton

2

What do we think about what? What are you asking?

3

I’m asking if I am handling this “right” and how to get my son to look past Duke. Sorry, long lost so maybe the question was hidden.

4

Has ds even visited Duke?

5

He’ll have to make a commitment sometime. I think that, given your circumstances, I would require that my child justify their decision. He could make a list of pros and cons of each school he wishes to apply to and see if Duke really does rise to the top or other schools surprise him. Emotion may be a factor but sometimes it can cloud judgement. If he is forced to be objective about his decision it will either make you more comfortable with it or give him some pause. As for looking past Duke there is the real possibility he will not be accepted or be deferred. ED might give him a slightly better chance for acceptance but he will still be one among many excellent students.

6

Is the South American internship included in the tuition at Duke or is it an additional cost?

What assistance does Duke provide in securing internships?

7

He has seen Duke. And the stories of summer trips like this were told by the tour guides. Good point in asking him to find out a) if it is likely he can get an internship, and b) who pays, bc we would already be paying a lot.

I realize he may get deferred or rejected ED, which is why I asked his dad to back off. It may not even be an issue (likely not, as Duke rejects thousands of kids like him!). But it does require the commitment if you get in. So I see Dads point too. I thought I was figuring this out…but I’m getting lost again!

I’ll ask S to keep a spreadsheet o pros cons as he looks in depth each week. Maybe black and white facts will help.

8

ED at Duke is fine especially as a full pay and he wants the edge. Keep in mind UNC schools can have no more than 18% OOS so the ones in at UNC have ivy-like credentials. What about Wake Forest (work forest)? Would have that instead of Elon or NEU.

My middle son majored in Econ with a greek studies minor (certificate) at an ivy and we are NC residents, and have a familiarity with most of the local schools. Did he consider Davidson or any of the other LACs? The others on the list sound good, an ED at Dartmouth might also give him an edge. What is it about Duke that he really likes? Can he put it in words, and if so that would provide some clues as to what other schools your son might find as a fit.

Middle son applied RD and EA no ED due to finances, and honestly he had no first choice. He had a group that he liked and as acceptances came in he was able to sort through them and his list changed after the accepted day visits. Once he comes to the realization that it is HE who makes the difference in his educational journey and not the school then he will be able to look past his focus on Duke. It’s a great school (son was admitted) but if your son can articulate what it is that he likes and WHY then you/he can discover other schools that have some of the same qualities.

Son also applied to U of Chicago for econ/math for some of the same reasons. At Penn he was in at the Jerome Fisher program (M&T) but your son might like the Huntsman program at Penn. Son’s GF’s brother graduated from Villanova in finance and acct 2 years ago and is an i-banker in NYC now and he thoroughly enjoyed his time there. Looks like through their school of business econ is also a major so there are some great options there and a possibility of some nice dual majors.

His 4 years of college will be what he makes of it, not the school he attends. As long as he takes advantage of all the different opportunities he will be successful and learn and grow. And what he feels now will be different than what he feels 9 months from now. Son thought his EA admittance to MIT was what would happen but the school he ended up attending did not admit him until late spring RD.

His view of what he wanted and what he didn’t want became clearer after acceptance visits and where he saw himself. Much different than summer before senior year. HUGE difference.

And I am very glad he did not apply anywhere ED, even though it was due to our need to compare financial aid packages which is very different than your financial situation. He wanted the ability to compare all the schools and their cost, its the econ major in him! And he did indeed end up following the money, since our aid packages varied by so very much. It was close between the top two in the end.

Again its not the school that will make the difference, rather it’s what he does while he is there that will determine how much he gets from his college experience.

Hope this helps.

9

Sounds like you are handling it fine. I don’t know how many times I asked my son “are you sure?” about his ED school, and he flip flopped between two schools, one which we ended up deciding together was way too much of a long shot and the ED application would help him at the other school (which apparently it did, he got in).

Duke does say there is an advantage applying ED.

But I’m confused, if you aren’t sure if he’ll get in Duke ED, he’s also applying to a bunch of Ivies? I’d want to ask how he feels about Miami OH and Binghamton, if he doesn’t get in Duke ED.

I’d also suggest he start looking at dates and application types. Miami OH for example has both ED and EA, so he could apply to them EA and Duke ED.

10

If he wants to major in economics, Cornell’s Dyson school is not the right place. Dyson is a business program, not an economics major.

My daughter was an economics major at Cornell. She had friends in the business program. The curricula were substantially different. There were kids in the business program who were there because they were trying to do an economics major on the cheap. They were not especially happy.

11

Has he selected safeties that is sure of getting admitted to and which he likes? Will you and his father pay list price for any of the non-Duke/Cornell schools, particularly any that may otherwise be safeties?

12

Miami, Binghamton, Elon are his safeties. I am ok with the price of each, as he will get merit from Elon and Miami that will make the comparable to Binghamton.

@rhandco
No one can be sure with Duke ED. I think his chances are the same at Duke as at Dartmouth or Penn. His chances at Cornell are better bc they take a good number of kids from his HS each year. His stats are not the problem. It is where he may appeal to that college (or not).

It is sad that when spending enough to buy a house, my kid has to sell himself to the seller!! Lol.

@marian thank you. I was concerned about this. The Cornell Econ program is not in a contract school. I don’t want him going there simply to save $17k a year, and then transfer out to the non contract school for Econ! Did your D end up going to Grad school?

13

And he “likes” both Miami and Elon. No love, but like. Binghamton is a dad requirement.

14

If Miami, Elon, and Binghamton are the only three schools he is admitted to, will he happily go off to college at one of them, or will he think it is a disappointing let-down to attend any of them?

15

Couple of things.

First, you and your ex sound like amazing parents. After reading so many heartbreaking posts by kids or custodial parents who can’t find a way to pay for college because the parents can’t work together, it was a joy to read your words that “he is a good guy” who will “pay half.”

Second, I am also a NY state resident and I wonder if you should consider Binghamton a safety. They aren’t very kind to in-state kids recently and their process shows that they give preference to out of state kids, and they will actually say that straight out. My D was a full-IB student and several of her classmates who otherwise got into Ivies or very top schools didn’t get into Binghamton. Just a thought.

16

She didn’t go to grad school in economics. She worked for an economic and litigation consulting firm for three years after graduation and then went back to school for an MBA. (I won’t give the name of the business school because it might make her too identifiable.) She’s halfway through her MBA program now and is doing a summer internship (and hoping to get a job) in an area of business that’s pretty far removed from economics. Her interests and ambitions have evolved over time, as most young people’s do.

Given how her career path is turning out, being in Dyson rather than the College of Arts and Sciences wouldn’t have been a disadvantage for her. However, we’re out of state, so there wouldn’t have been a significant financial advantage to Dyson, either. Your son’s situation is different both in terms of his career goals and his family finances.

17

Cornell AEM is a highly competitive school, especially during the ED round, reasons being many athletes like AEM over other schools. For non-hooked students admittance rate is very low.

If AEM is not the school for him because he wants to major in econ then I would let him decide where he wants to go to school. If he had wanted to go to business school I don’t think I would freely let him choose Duke when Cornell would have been a very good (cheaper) option. I think the only other business school I would pay full fare for would be Wharton, but he wants econ.
Now, I am not sure if it is fair to tell the father to stay out of it except for his $25K contribution. It would most likely be by $60K total. If he is paying half then his opinion should matter. But it sounds like he is ok with it.

18

Let’s anticipate your ex’s next Cornell question:

No, Industrial and Labor Relations (always called ILR) isn’t a substitute for economics, either. As with the Dyson business program, the content is very different from that of an economics major.

A different thought: UVA’s economics major is highly regarded. UVA costs substantially less, even for out of staters, than Duke. It might be worth taking a close look at UVA.

19

Will provide our family’s story since it seems to overlap many of the op’s.

Last year, DS went ED to Duke for engineering. We were full-pay and both parents and son while visiting the school had drunk the delicious Duke Kool-Aid (beautiful campus/great school). Ultimately he was rejected ED. He/We was a little heartbroken, then he bounced back in short order. He had thankfully already gotten EA acceptances (which I strongly encourage application for, along with any ED app) to a number of good schools (UofM eng, Case Western, Purdue, Tulane) (many of whom gave money), which certainly helped provide balm to the hurt.

In the end, S applied for and received one of the full-tuition scholarships at Tulane. Given the likelihood of grad school/med school expenses in his future, he opted to take the offer and head to NOLA. He is now home after a successful and satisfying first year (he even has a girlfriend!). Duke ED, now a long forgotten dusty memory.

I truly believe, whatever is meant to be is what’s meant to be. So long as money/finances are not an issue (either now OR future studies), then I say let the boy have his shot at independence and shoot for whatever school his heart desires…just make sure that there is a safety in the wings that he can love as well.

Everyone’s story and situation is their own: a classmate to son turned down the Robertson scholarship at Duke to be full pay at Harvard. For him, I’m sure it was the correct choice, for others likely not.

Good Luck…try to enjoy the ride…it’s a part of you and your son’s life story!

20

"Now I spoke to DAD and told him to back off bc, like a girlfriend, any criticism makes S love Duke more. He understands. I also told him the kid had ZERO options to discuss or to cut off bc he has zero acceptances, and once he has some, we can discuss. We’ll discuss ED in August.

I asked DAD to consider ONLY whether he can afford and do $25k a year and ignore the rest for now."

I don’t think this is fair to DAD at all. You are asking him to pay over $100k per year, but to pipe down and not be part of the college choice and search. If you want all the control, you may have to pay for the entire education. If you want DAD to not only contribute but to pay half, he gets to have input too, maybe even half. That’s how it works. The father may say “I’ll pay half if you go to Cornell or to Bing, but not if you apply ED to Duke” You and Son can still apply to Duke (it only takes one signature on the ED form) but you and son need to realize you may be on your own financially. That is all part of the decision making process. Duke will cost you $50k/yr, while Bing may only be $10k/ since DAD will pay $10k too.

I made some of those decisions with/for my kids because I didn’t want them borrowing a lot of money. I’d pay $xx for school A, but not for B because B would have required my $xx plus them borrowing too much. Control? Yes. Sixteen and 17 year olds don’t always make good financial decisions and it is still my job to guide them. We’re all happy with the decisions of where they attend, but they did not get to apply to schools just because they wanted to without regard to how much they would cost. How do you get Duke out of your son’s eyes? Show him the numbers, show him the extra costs, show him the acceptance rate for students with his stats. Show him other schools.