Gosh, thank you for this post. For one, the description of the student at Cambridge sounds very much like my son - he actually recently was described to me as an outlier by another parent. It’s not that he’s disliked, it’s just that he’s never quite fit in. He is quiet and his interests don’t align with the kids around him and theirs don’t interest him so much, either. Mostly, that’s what he is looking for in college: lots of ‘fun’ work and peers that find the work equally enjoyable.
In his words, as this thread has sparked a lot of conversations (thanks to all of you!!!): “I am looking for people that are interested in what happens in the classroom, to talk to about it all the time.”
And then: it’s a big relief to hear that your daughter (?) found the self studying quite achievable. We have had zero exposure to AP material or tests, so reading that they are the equivalent of one year college sounded very difficult.
You write that collegekid1 studied to meet her Oxford offer - does that mean she got the offer and then took the APs?
I have to say, posting here has brought a lot of energy and excitement to our family - it was meant as a forage into possibilities to be explored somewhere down the line, I was actually patting myself on the shoulder a bit about being so early - no way did I expect to jump in to (what feels to me) warpspeed, reorganizing the entire rest of the school year, having the kiddo shooting off e-mails left and right. Took me a day to wrap my head around it.
However - my son is super happy and enthused, he is loving the challenges. Bright eyes and smiles all around, the whole kid is lit up. He has written a schedule for studying and has started right in - hooray for Khan academy, they are amazing!
So mom is trying her best to take deep breaths and just go with the flow, let’s see where all this takes us.
Thank you, Tigerle.
I wonder if the AP results are viewed as equivalents to A-levels in term of admissions, to me it read more like a prerequisite, not anything of value in and of itself? But that is only my interpretation, if this thread has shown me one thing, it’s that I don’t know terribly much about applying to colleges. Although I attended an incredibly selective college (less than 2% acceptance) it was so specialized that none of my experiences in any way transfer to nowadays.
I hope somebody at Oxford gets around to answering my son’s e-mail to clarify after the holidays…
You are spot on, Tigerle - preparing for the MAT is thrilling to him. Being a little perfectionist his only worry is about not getting it right, but he is already planning on using the problems in his math club to collect different approaches.
The AP tests are truly a PITA to organize and execute, but the stuff about ‘passion’ I wrote above holds true here - the kid is so excited by the idea of doing them that I’ll try my best to make it happen.
And a huge thank you to you, Beekmom! CCS was actually on our radar, his college counselor in school suggested it to him, however, he had a bad experience with an admissions officer (was stood up at a visit we had driven to SB for, when he finally got a zoom meeting ao couldn’t answer any of his questions). But I just read him your comment and convinced him to take another look, maybe talking to the math department directly. School size and party reputation is a concern to him, but I also thought it sounded interesting (and it is A LOT closer - and warmer- than England!). As kiddo is very impressed by your son your endorsement of CCS holds a lot more weight than mine…
Exactly- and that is the norm in the UK. Actually, it’s even more stressful there, as they get offers based on their A-level predictions- and A-level results don’t come out until early August! (v early July for APs). UK people do tend to look down on APs as being ‘less’ than A-levels, but in our experience, US students who get in do just fine with their AP prep (ha! I said it). Oxford puts a lot of weight on their own aptitude tests- Math particularly so.
The person who wrote her LoR (only one for the UK) had to ‘predict’ her scores, and obviously the predictions had to be 5s. In the end her offer was for scores of 5 on 2 subject-specific APs, and one of either of the other 2 she had put forward. For three of them she had taken that subject in a class (not an “AP” class, as that wasn’t available), and one of them was 100% self-study (ie, had never taken anything like it, but relevant to her subject, so interesting to her). She got 5s on all of them, so it worked out! the least fun part was having her AP exams really matter, when all her school friends were into college by May & well into senioritis mode!
You get 5 applications for the price of one (one LoR / one essay / one fee), so your son should check out other options as well- reading the description of the courses at unis such as Imperial, Durham, StAs, UCL or Warwick would be worthwhile (they will all want the same 3 APs). StAs is very US-friendly, Durham is collegiate (like Oxbridge).
There is a UK version of CC called The Student Room. The director of undergraduate studies at the Mathematical Institute answers Oxford math related questions there all the time. If your son doesn’t get a reply to his email, you might want to try that as another route.
Yay, they do take AP predictions without the corresponding class! I thought that was iffy….so that would be another route for your son to take: predicted AP grades and a conditional offer. Not the route I’d recommend because you have to wait until after the end of senior year to be sure of your offer, but it’s there if junior year APs end up not being feasible for you.
Agree that while there is the official stance that three APs equals three A levels, a UK tutor who has gone the A level route themselves would probably look down on APs, but who knows - the tutor might be American, or Indian, or Chinese. Your instinct is spot on: it’s three boxes to check (they are a state school after all and have rather more transparency requirements than, for instance, Ivies), the MAT is where it’s at.
If you look at what the maths department requires in the way of A levels (maths and, if possible, further maths) it tells you exactly how much value they place on the non maths scores. Three boxes to check.
Something to note about applying for joint schools (ie maths and philosophy): it makes admissions less predictable because it’s not just the maths tutors who have to want you, but the philosophy tutors, too, and it’s harder to tell what they want. He’d have to do some heavy reading before the interview, too. He’s got time until October to think about this, but wanted to mention it.
Fingers crossed for a useful answer from the maths department soon!
It’s not uncommon to ask joint-subject applicants ‘would you take just X’.
Good catch on TSR, @HazeGrey. Fwiw, replies from the math department are unlikely before early January -between holiday closings & getting this year’s offers out there isn’t a lot of bandwidth!
Agreed @collegemom3717 . @AnnaW - all of the Oxford colleges are closed from roughly Dec. 22 to Jan 3 and then once they come back from holiday, that next week is busy with finalizing offers for Jan 11. Very likely not to hear anything before then. For those applicants who didn’t get shortlisted for interview, they are explicitly told not to ask for feedback on their applications until after Jan. 11.
Fish around on the Oxford websites - the Mathematical Institute has lots of info posted on the programs and the process.
Yes, we figured as much - as he wrote to the admissions department, courtesy of the ‘international student’ booklet, the hope is that they have a dedicated ao that might be able to answer his question.
Typically each college has their own admissions officer. There is also an admissions officer/schools liaison at the Mathematical Institute if your question is specific to the Maths & Phil program.
Whew. After intense discussions through the holidays, this is where we are at: kiddo will throw his hat in the ring for Oxford, in full recognition of the fact that the chances are slim. He will also go for the three AP scores this May, as he thinks “it would be interesting to see if he can get them”, also: if he misses one five and needs it, he can take the test again next year, now that we will have figured out how to do it (IF we figure out how to do it, that will be the next task on our ever growing to do list…)
He discovered that one of the youtubers he admires is a math lecturer at Oxford - looks to me that a visit will be in the future at some time, so he can fanboy, running around the hallowed grounds trying to get a glimpse…
His calculus skills should be pretty solid, too, after three passes at the same material.
I have calmed down somewhat, too - to quote the incomparable Doris Day: que sera, sera.
Now that we determined what he’s drawn to and considering the chances - still trying to build a list for US colleges, so if anybody has more suggestions, feel free.
And, a question for the UK experts: how different is Oxford from other UK colleges? Would one find the same enthusiasm for learning there, as well?
As an aside: we took a look at the maths and further maths syllabi - it seems to me that the UK is way ahead of the US both in breadth and depth in their general math curriculum. Germany is, as well, as is Japan (my son has a friend from there). It seems easy to infer that the US high school curriculum, at least for quantifiable STEM subjects, generally is a bit slower and shallower than the rest of the western world?
Not how you thought you’d spend your Christmas vacation, eh?
But I think he’s making good choices! And he sounds energised, and happy, and he has very clear goals for the next year. Much clearer than shooting for top ten or top twenty US unis, and frankly if he does well on the MAT, his chances are rather better than “slim”.
I do think Oxford and Cambridge are quite different from other UK unis, yes. However, you do get five choices, and since you can’t put Cambridge, might as well put another four unis as safeties. @Twoin18 would probably know best. Maybe Imperial, St. Andrews, Edinburgh and Warwick?
As to breadth and depth of math education…the US and the UK are probably the two hardest countries to compare, common language notwithstanding. Remember that after year 11 (tenth grade), if they even stay in school, kids in the UK take only three, at most four or five subjects, usually interrelated, altogether, and only kids who a) want to go on to higher education and b) are aiming for a quant heavy course, take maths A level. And many fewer take further maths.
US kids mostly stay in high school until they are 18 and are required to take math all four years. Meaning most of the options must be much shallower in order to be even feasible, but at least no one can get out of it altogether. But as long as colleges dare require no more than SAT level maths, and a lot don’t even require that one any more, there is no reason to go any further unless a student is seriously interested. I think only Caltech dares hint at really wanting to see calculus.
German kids may not be in high school anymore between 16 and 18, but for those who aim for university entrance qualifications, calculus is at least required. But a lot just scrape by!
A somewhat objective measure for math attainment until 10th grade may be the OECD’s PISA survey. It appears that the US does have less to build on for the last two years of high school.
This is likely because not all US high schools offer calculus (although the number has been growing over the decades), and access to calculus in US high schools is often dependent on math placement decisions made while the student is in middle school. Both may be “tainted” by non-academic criteria (e.g. SES, race, ethnicity, rural), so colleges are hesitant to shut out more potential applicants whom they see as demographically underrepresented. In addition, the US does not seem to favor early specialization the way some other countries do (e.g. in Germany where students go to different high schools depending on whether they are university-bound or trades-bound, as determined in middle school), so there is a desire to keep the doorway to university open as long as possible (while in countries where there is earlier specialization, high school education for the university-bound can be accelerated based on the assumption of the students being stronger in university-prep subjects).
Although Warwick is very strong, they have asked for STEP, at least in the past, which probably rules them out (not knowing your result until mid August is infeasible for US students). Durham is a decent substitute, or you could add KCL or Manchester as an easier admit. But the weather in either Manchester or Durham would be pretty depressing for a California kid.
@AnnaW If you are going to try to visit, my strong suggestion would be to go during the Open Days this coming summer (restrictions permitting). Your son will be able to get a sense of the different colleges, the faculty there and the other students. There will also be department wide presentations at the Mathematical Institute. My son saw probably 14 of the 18 colleges that offered his degree program over two days and found it very helpful to both his decision to apply and then which college to apply to.
All of your arguments about the differences between the various countries make sense. Just to throw two more thoughts in: in general it seems to me that the US places more value on language based skills such as debate (which also would be reflected in the PISA results), not so much on numbers based skills. Would you agree or is that just my subjective impression?
I also have wondered if the fact that multiple choice questions are the norm in the US but not in UK, Germany, etc. might have something to do with the fact that the maths results don’t compare? Specifically: does being able to back solve a problem require the same deep understanding as having to solve it straight out?
Just wondering out loud here…
