Help: give me some reasons she should get A's in college

Parent Cafe
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<p>I agree. What parents ought to encourage in their children is learning--in the broadest sense of the word (not just grades)--and balance--and finding joy in learning and balance.</p>

<p>Here is a cautionary tale, a story about Princeton's valedictorian in 2002, a young woman who went on to become a Rhodes Scholar (like her older brother, also a Princeton graduate.) She had a better than 4.0 average. To me (and to her parents, I think) the price she paid is way too high.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Epaw/archive_new/PAW01-02/16-0605/features.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_new/PAW01-02/16-0605/features.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Life is a journey, not a footrace. The pursuit of perfection can jeopardize health and happiness.</p>

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<p>A big yes to the previous two posts, but just realize that the situation is made much worse by the constant harping on grades and by the machinations many profs are doing in order to achieve the curve that have been happening on campus for the past two years. So what you are saying goes double.</p>

23

<p>Hmm. I seem to have hit a sore spot. Sorry. Didn't really mean to.</p>

<p>My original post said I felt somewhat uneasy. Because this is new, and because I really don't know how much it matters so I have no data to help me decide what is the right guidance. I am not being a maniac, yet, hence my post.</p>

<p>Where those cautioning me to get a grip are right is that I need to separate the thrill I get from her performance from the real honest role I play in guiding her for her own sake.</p>

<p>I was really just looking for facts - do As matter in her life, would they have any material impact. Sounds like at this stage not.</p>

<p>All I would plan to do going forward is give her data if she seems not to have it and it has material impact. Of course, best laid plans and all, I am sure she will feel I am nudging her too much but I really do try to keep my own emotions about all this to myself.</p>

<p>If this is what is she capable of, I would never shame her and tell her to do better. If this is less than she is capable of, I wouldn't shame her, but I might tell her that if X.Y or Z are her goals, grades at this level will have an impact.</p>

<p>Thanks for the input. In any case, this email thread has kept me from mentioning grades at all and she's been home for 2 hours:). I think I can keep the virtual duct tape on for the rest of the visit.</p>

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<p>Put out your hand for a cyber smack, Alu. You've lost the plot a bit.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Whinging about A-/B+s at Princeton will NOT be tolerated or encouraged. Let her decide HER level of ambition.</p></li>
<li><p>Working yourself into a state of hypo-anxiety over a clearly successful and happy Ivy league freshman will also NOt be tolerated or encouraged. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>We love you but you do need more exercise!</p>

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<p>Cheers to cheers! </p>

<p>I really thought the heading of this thread should have been 'Gee, I'm thrilled my daughter is doing so well at Princeton'</p>

<p>On a serious note, alumother, you indicated above that you wanted to give your daughter data. Rest assured, she can find out data on her own. What I believe she needs from you is encouragement, an interested listener, and any wisdom you may have gained from your own experiences.</p>

26

<p>OK OK. I'm cyberslapped. I'm off to Sinner's Alley. I promise I'm done with wondering whether there is any chance I ought to have concern over D's grades. All the rest of you can come too but for tonight you have to sit on the other side of the bar. You can, however, pick up peanuts from the floor and throw them at me....</p>

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<p>Here's my reasons not to worry. Their names are Chris, and Tom, and I still think about them often. Two friends of mine who committed suicide in college because they weren't meeting their own self-imposed (and parentally imposed) standards of excellence. Tom had just flunked out of medical school; Chris got the first non-A of his life. </p>

<p>Get over it. Bs and As are great grades. Succeeding at college is a great thing. Telling your child that what she is doing isn't enough is a BAD idea.</p>

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<p>Alu, she doing fine and so are you. I think your attitude and posting are entirely appropriate . FWIW, I can't imagine anyone thinking those grades were a harbinger of anything but the fantastic academic career she has coming square at her. Pat her on the back. This is gonna be a wild ride, huh? Enjoy it.</p>

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<p>Reasons not to be concerned:
1. If she heads to a graduate program, the grades in her major, her recs from professors, and perhaps some research involvement will count much more than overall gpa
2. Even if she's headed to law school or med school, she doesn't need a 4.0 if she does well on the MCATs or LSATs. My niece, who got a couple of C's in advanced math classes her first year at an Ivy League school, just graduated (law review) from an excellent law school and is off clerking for a state supreme court judge.
3. If you look at the requirements for honors in the departments she might major in, I'm willing to bet they are closer to a 3.6 than a 4.0 -- meaning that they expect even honors students to sometimes get less than straight A's. Maybe even a B or two!
4. Kids who get hung up on A's tend to start picking classes based on how difficult or easy the grading is, rather than on what really interests them or challeges them. They also can make themselves sick with stress.
5. College isn't like high school. The GPA is not everything. Her involvement in ec's might lead to the very experiences that not only help her determine her future field, but get her the first job in that field.
6. First year is about making friends, managing time, learning to do laundry, starting to figure out who you are. These are all forms of learning, as well. </p>

<p>Enjoy your successful daughter. She's doing fantastically and you should tell her that. After she leaves, have a glass of wine with dinner...</p>

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<p>huskem, Now I am worried. My S is at Pomona and wants to get into a doctrate program for clinical psych , He has A- and B+'s and is a sophomore so if he has a 3.5 GPA you are implying he is screwed. He is doing research and working in the field and doing leadership stuff but I doubt he will graduate above a 3.5. Are you saying no clinical psych program would probably take him. He does not believe in taking easy classes to get a grade but takes what interests him even if the professor is known as a hard marker. He doesn't want to play the game of sculpting the perfect GPA. I admire his ethics but also want him to combine it with some reality. Does anyone know if that is pretty accurate and what folks that don't have a 3.6 GPA do that want to be psychologists</p>

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<p>sac--#4 is sooo important--I so agree with you--you don't want to not to take risks, avoid classes you might be interested in trying that are outside of the 'ol comfort zone, just because you might not get an A (or might have to struggle to get a B in some notorious classes). </p>

<p>Good for you alumother, for keeping mum about this to D and posting this concern here, even at the risk of you know, seeming obsessive. I think you got lots of good feedback. Anyway, be proud of your D, she's doing great!</p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>I seem to be agreeing with you a lot lately, curmudgeon. I don't know if that means anything significant!</p>

<p>Alumother, this is the appropriate place to express concerns -- much better than discussing it with your daughter, I think. And I understand completely where you are coming from. We just returned from a day visit with our son, and my H commented about how wonderful it is that he is happy and well-adjusted in the social realm. We don't yet have a good feel for grades, since he's in the middle of mid-terms. But my H, always one to see things in terms of the big picture, said that it is better to see him happy and social, and not obsessed with grades, than it would be to see the opposite. He's always been quiet, and we are amazed at how social he has become -- this is also a good learning experience. FYI -- S said that many of the freshman he knows are having a difficult time with mid-terms, so it sounds like your daughter is doing well. For our son, we'll just have to wait and see how the first quarter goes!</p>

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<p>I just had an "aha!" moment. Now I know where my more average kid actually may have an advantage over the wunderkind that are all over these boards: she has actually seen plenty of B's, a few C's and - hold on here - once, even a D+. So seeing that grade in college is not a shock at all. (Of course, I might add, that her grades in college are way better than her high school grades with plenty of A's. We're pretty ecstatic about that.)</p>

<p>Freshman year, we had one brief discussion about grades. I told her I truly didn't care what grades she got - I knew she'd do her best and that was good enough (we didn't need a repeat of the severe high school depression and I was trying not to put stress on her). She told me she wants to go to grad school (in psych, also). I said great but she'd probably need at least a 3.3 She looked at me and said, mom, I need at least a 3.5 and I'm gonna get it. As hazmat pointed out, she's a lot more aware of what she's going to need than I am and is working toward that goal - on her own, as it should be.</p>

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<p>Alumother- I think we need to cut you some slack. After all this is your first kid in college and many of us already have years experience with college grades. When my oldest was a freshman the school sent out a letter to all freshman parents followed by their grades as of midterm a few days later. This also coincided with the school's fall break. The letter explained that every student at the school had been an outstanding student in high school and that parents could not expect to see the same grades in college. In fact there was one line that said, "Don't be shocked when you see you S/D's grades." It also went on to explain that freshman year was an adjustment and students who had done poorly could bring up their final grade. It reminded parents that despite the rigor the school they had a 95% graduation rate.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Think about it: if your d takes a physics class and there are 5 students in it who were on the U.S. physics team, the ones who have done research, etc., they get the As. The exams will be made harder and harder so that the truly spectacular achievers will be outed, and they set the curve. Even when these top students are placed in a more advanced section of a particular course, they still set the curve. Makes no sense to me; they ought to have their own course, but then unfortunately (because of the infernal curve) they'd be eating one another for lunch gradewise.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>These kids do have their own course. After 3 weeks the top students are taken out of Physics 103 and place in Physics 105. It's a whole different class with a different textbook. Rather than having each other for lunch, they help each other with problem sets both in and ouside of formal study groups. In fact they've been told by the Physics faculty that the Physics community is one of cooperation not competition. As scientists they will be expected to share their knowledge with each other for the common good. They told the kids if they see any of them getting competitive they will "hammer it out" of them.</p>

<p>arizonamom- Don't worry. Applicants to psychology doctoral programs are overwhelmingly female. The profession is in desparate need of males.</p>

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<p>I'm kind of stunned by this discussion. Am I a failure as a parent since I told my son that I didn't care what grades he got in college as long as he kept his scholarship and mastered the content? So far only one C+ in 2 and a half years. He's happy, learning, has gotten good internships, and has developed a wide circle of friends. </p>

<p>Am I missing something?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Am I missing something?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No tsdad, you're a wonderfully sane parent. Can we clone you?</p>

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<p>


I finally understand this phenomenon after 1800 plus posts (as I'm sure alu does, too). </p>

<p>We all sound a helluva lot smarter when we are talking about other people's kids. ;)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'm kind of stunned by this discussion. Am I a failure as a parent since I told my son that I didn't care what grades he got in college as long as he kept his scholarship and mastered the content? So far only one C+ in 2 and a half years. He's happy, learning, has gotten good internships, and has developed a wide circle of friends. </p>

<p>Am I missing something?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>TSdad, that was unkind. Alumother never said her slight misgivings were justified, or necessary, or the only way to feel (or even a sane way to feel). That's why she brought them here--among "friends"--to hash them out and get some equilibrium. Which she's more than gotten, along with some doses of scolding, already. Nowhere did she or any poster even whisper that a parent who accepted uneven grades with equanimity was a "failure."</p>

<p>No need to be holier than thou.</p>

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<p>"These kids do have their own course....As scientists they will be expected to share their knowledge with each other for the common good. "</p>

<p>Ah, cookiemom, sorry. I deliberately changed the name of the department in question so as to disguise my d's identity. I should have said I was using a hypothetical example. The policy you describe in physics sounds great all around -- a mature approach that reflects the kind of sophisticated thinking I expected at Princeton. Hear, hear. 'Tisn't the case in all departments, I'm afraid. Not at all. </p>

<p>Happily, several students including my d have reported that at certain departmental introductory meetings there were announcements that since most of their professors were tenured, they would not feel the need to be bothered with the official demands for grade quotas. Yes, I know they don't use the word "quotas," but if it walks like a duck... </p>

<p>To be fair to Alu, if you look over on, for example, the law boards, you will see that it is, in fact, true that numbers matter a great deal. I believe it is our job as parents to support and love our children unconditionally. I also think that if THEY (not we) have a particular goal for their future, it is appropriate for us to suggest that they explore what they will need to accomplish in order to meet that goal. We do a balancing act that centers on seeing them as whole people with various needs and dimensions -- especially when they are in a high-pressure environment -- and it's tricky.</p>

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<p>Alu~</p>

<p>I actually found myself in a similar situation a short time ago as midterm grades arrived. Before they did, though, I got an email from my son which basically said something on the order of, "I need to tell you something before you find out from the school...."</p>

<p>Seems he "bombed" his chem midterm. Oh, his grade was a good 10-12 points above the class average, but to HIM, he had bombed it. And yes, I had a moment of panic.</p>

<p>But my panic was different.</p>

<p>I panicked because in the past couple of months, I've found out about three different "golden kids" who have committed suicide because for whatever reason, they felt NOT GOOD ENOUGH.</p>

<p>So I dropped EVERYTHING I was doing when I received that email and I wrote him a long note. In that note, I told him how very, very proud I was of him for taking on a challenging curriculum at a challenging school and that he was doing VERY well given where he came from (an average public school in the midwest) and whom he was "up against" in terms of competition. I asked him to please put the ONE GRADE into perspective and that I was neither disappointed nor upset in the least. In fact, I was PROUD.</p>

<p>When I went to look at his grades on the website, I found out that he is carrying three high to mid A's and one B. And yes, I'm bustin' my buttons right now--even though I DO realize that he might have spent a bit too much time on some other things and that MAYBE he could have put in a bit more effort with the chem. But in all honesty, I'd rather have him make that B and still have some oooomph that he can put into that class than have him make that B while working at his greatest capacity....at least there's room for improvement then. <em>lol</em> :)</p>

<p>All that said, however, I cannot say that I do not comprehend your original question. I do. All the platitudes aside, reality does come into play when it comes to med and law school applications, other grad schools, etc. It's not that you have no right to be concerned or to ask these questions as some might suggest. It's just that those questions need to be put into the perspective of the bigger picture, as I'm quite sure you have already figured out.</p>

<p>So, instead of a "cyberslap", I offer you a big, warm {{{{{cyberhug}}}}}. I understand where you are coming from....we will muddle through this "first one at demanding college" together!</p>

<p>fondly, ~berurah</p>