<p>Hi I've been lurking on the boards a few months and am seeking advice for our high school dilemma. S is a freshman in high school and has always been a great student, (A's) and tests well. We are discouraged with his high school. He's in band and wants to continue, but with block schedule band will take up 1/4 of total classes, not just electives! This doesn't allow for many electives, and of the 2 AP courses they offer, not sure if he could even fit them both in. (He has obsessed about this with a spreadsheet planning out his future.) His high school is small, less than 900 students total, and they offer nothing for bright kids in classes, ie. honors, etc. </p>
<p>Well his school has changed math curriculum to something called Core Math. He has become increasingly frustrated with Core Math. They must work on problems as a group which takes much longer than it would if he were responsible for problem solving alone, and even more frustrating is that he is spending a lot of time on the problems but is not LEARNING anything new. I got a handout recently for Core Math 1, 2, and 3 (through junior year) and I became livid because all the material they will cover through his junior year I had before sophomore year, 20 years ago! </p>
<p>There are no alternatives at the school, and I even asked if he could double up 2 and 3 level in sophomore year, and teacher said, no they don't have staffing for that. So there is another high school that is much larger, about 2000 students, that is actually home school district. They have regular math, (algebra, geometry, etc) more choices, etc. </p>
<p>So our dilemma is to stay or to go? Of course he has wonderful friends and teachers, friends whose parents we've relied on for rides and supervision as I'm a single parent working some crazy hours. His teachers rely on him, he has a lot of school loyalty, this other school is the "rival" school, etc. I haven't even brought it up to him because I don't want to stress him out. But I don't want to hold him back either, and I know he is feeling that way with band taking away virtually all electives and now with math. I want to talk to his school, and let them know our frustration, but I don't even know who to talk to. I'd love to have some outside input.</p>
<p>Chances are good that the school administration believes they are doing a great job. I would suggest becoming active in the PTA. If other parent feel as you do then a combined voice can make a difference.</p>
<p>S1 had the same experience doing math in groups in k-8. He complained that the students liked to argue for the sake of arguing, well past the time when they should have gotten to the solution.<br>
Group learning can be very useful (S2 in college is part of a study group) but it can be very frustrating when students are at very different levels of ability and motivation. S2 had similar experiences to S1, and used to do the work of the other 3 students in his group. He did not mind, but the other 3 did not learn anything by his doing the work they should have been doing.
If the school has decided to go for a program that your S dislikes, there probably is nothing much you can do to change that decision. Whether right or wrong, it was made with much thought.</p>
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His teachers rely on him,
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<p>This raises a red flag to me. It seems your S is more advanced than his classmates and is being used as a teacher's aide, perhaps to the detriment of his own learning.
You should talk to the principal and the GC since this is not a matter of a single classroom but of school policy. The Core program was adopted by the school; the block schedule, ditto.
My Ss attended a school that had about 2000 students, divided into 5 houses or small learning communities. They had the same GC for all 4 years (S1) or 3 (S2). The important thing was that the classes were relatively small (capped at 30, but many had as few as 12-15 students). Good luck.</p>
<p>I doubt parents could influence such dramatic changes to the school, esp. in the time frame you have. Really - schools are danged dinosaurs. </p>
<p>Since your son seems to already be very aware of the problem (the disconnect between what he wants out of school and what his school offers), there seems to be no point in not bringing it up with him. He will probably be relieved that you are willing to address it. Calmly discuss the pros and cons, including ideas for addressing the logistics, and make the decision together. You might find the logistics are not that insurmountable. </p>
<p>It's great that your son is aiming high, and for that reason, I personally would want to move to the other school; the difficulties of the transition should be temporary and the rewards of seeing him remain challenged and excited about learning permanent. </p>
<p>Thanks so much for the info and advice! I called and talked with a guidance counselor at the "other high school" and got some info and figured out some transportation logistics. So tonight I discussed it with S and he was FAR more open to it then I thought he would be. After looking over some info on their website he said the chances of staying at the current high school are "getting slimmer." He wants to meet with the counselor next week and get more specifics. He is not concerned about losing his friends and knows that even though there is a rivalry with this other school, he wants to discuss it with his friends and he said he thinks if he tells his friends all that the other school offers that they just might want to go to this school too!</p>
<p>foobs, I was glad to get to the end of this thread and learn that your son is open to a change of schools. As a freshman, he will have time to make new friends at the other highschool. </p>
<p>You might also consider supplementing his courses at a community college if there's one nearby.</p>
<p>I can sure understand your son's frustration with group learning! My son is more of a humanities guy, but similarly in English and Social Studies this kind of group approach to learning was way overdone in his school system -- from elementary through high school. I'm all for learning to work and play well together, but this disproportionate emphasis on group problem solving and creativity can be debilitating if one child is more capable or motivated than the rest of the group. </p>
<p>Worse, there was no way to complain about it as doing so would mean that you were being uncooperative e.g. just the kind of kid could most benefit from group dynamics. :)</p>
<p>Good luck and we look forward to hearing more about your son's progress.</p>
<p>I read your concerns with interest because our school district went through a similar thing. We had UCSMP math (University of Chicago School Math Project) which I was very happy with. It includes math courses with traditional titles and the textbooks have alot of verbal explanation of what's going on with minimal repetition of problem types. The class did a small and unique section of the book every day. Really, it could almost be self-taught. </p>
<p>Although I was not on the curriculum committee, I believe it was determined that there was not enough repetition for the average student since many could not score well enough to advance to the next course. They changed to some other sytem but kept Chicago Math for the accellerated students. The true test of a program is how well kids learn, no matter what the style. Chicago Math was great for my kids, but clearly didn't work for others.</p>
<p>Here is just one link I found to one evaluation of the Core Math system. Most people seemed to comment that it was a waste of time and that they were unprepared for traditional college level math. That would scare me. Ultimately, math is a solitary subject and each student has to be sure he/she understands it alone...math does not strike me as a "group subject".
<a href="http://www.math.wayne.edu/%7Egreg/original.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.math.wayne.edu/~greg/original.htm</a></p>
<p>Good luck with your decision. I think if your son is going to make a move, now is the ideal time.</p>
<p>My daughters high school used what was called PBLs (Problem Based Learning). It relied heavily on tech and group projects. Worse, this system was used across the board--from English to history to math.</p>
<p>My daughter hated it and felt that the system was stifling. As has been suggested by Marite, one student normally ends up carrying the water for the whole group and quite often the teacher. Moreover, the system involves an inadequate amount of actual instruction from an instructor...relying most often on the most advanced student to guide the group.</p>
<p>Anyhow, we, along with many other parents, made our voices heard not only in PTA but in the local newspapers. My daughter graduated 1st in her class last year so it didnt hurt her prospects but the system was no help to her intellectual pursuits, but over the summer the Superintendent of Schools was fired, as were a quite a number of other administrators after a school board election in which half of the board along with the whole PBL system (which cost in the millions to administer and implement) was dumped.</p>
<p>Even if it is too late to help your son, you may be doing a public service for the kids who will come after him. That's how we viewed it.</p>
<p>I'm just repeating Woodwork's comments, but your S seems open to the change, and realizes the academics are more importnt that rivalry betw schools.
Looking back, my S was doing his own math from 7th grade on. He helped math teacher post grades on computer while in MS, and in HS, acted often as tutor. Not until another student suggested carpooling to college math classes, did I realize how passive S and I had been. I really do encourage you to pursue the path you know will be more productive.</p>
<p>Our school offers two tracks of math -- traditional (algebra, geometry, calc, etc.) for college-bound math-oriented students. And Core Math for everyone else. To be honest, I haven't heard a whole lot good about Core Math.</p>
<p>The district where I sub uses CORE math and since I sub a lot in math, I'm familiar with the program. Like much of the public school curricula out there, it's aimed at the middle 80-90%. It doesn't work well for the kids at either extreme. The fast-to-get-it kids are bored silly (and end up just lecturing to the slower kids in their learning group, which doesn't work well for them, either) and the slowest-to-get-it kids don't take the notes (or get the drills) needed to retain the knowledge. If you skim out the faster kids, then the middle kids have no leaders, and the program fails.</p>
<p>Why do schools use it? Well, it does work well--probably better than most programs--for that middle 80-90%, and schools don't give a flying leap about the kids who <em>will</em> pass those NCLB tests, they need to worry about the ones who <em>might not</em> pass those tests.</p>
<p>So, what to do? Go with the selfish solution. What works for YOUR kid? (I sent both my children to private schools even though I teach in the public schools and faced a LOT of criticism from faculty members I worked with for pulling them from the school. "We need their leadership." Not at their expense, you don't.)</p>
<p>If that makes you feel guilty, you or your kid can offer to tutor the kids who need help with math. (Yes, I've volunteered as a math tutor at the school. Three kids graduated last year because of the time I spent with them.)</p>
<p>Ah, the age-old question posed by The Clash...Should I stay or should I go?</p>
<p>I say, go, by all or any means! The young mind needs stimulation before the passion is lost and IMHO the learning at high school age is far more important than at college age. This is the foundation for life's learning.</p>
<p>Hi, I'm a student and I thought I could give another perspective to this problem.</p>
<p>I have always, ALWAYS, disliked group work because I would end up being the one explaining and leading everything. Right now, I'm in calc and we have group work due two times every week. What frequently happens is that I have to spend two hours explaining even though I could have finished in thirty minutes. I don't gain anything from these sessions because I basically spend them re-explaining the lecture that I already understand.</p>
<p>For all means, go for it. It will be intimidating in such a new environment but the benefits (academically and intellectully) that your S will gain are well worth it. You could supplement with community college courses like one of my friends, but she just ended up even more bored in class and with a workload that was much too heavy.</p>
<p>Now, I do agree there is a problem at the OP S's high school...he should have the opportunity to teach students more advanced mathematical problems than basic math (though I must admit I don't know anything about 'Core Math'). I bet you have already asked school official but are there any opportunites at the community college level where he can take classes there and not have to leave his friends? If not, I'd definately look into other options for your son...it seems like an under-performing school that won't prepare him for the college he would eventually get into and attend.</p>
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I don't gain anything from these sessions because I basically spend them re-explaining the lecture that I already understand.
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<p>However, squirrelgirl, you likely do get something out of 'teaching' calc to the 'slower' students in the class. It is a great technique to solidify information in your head and take the information from your short-term to long-term memory. I find I really don't learn most of the material in my field of study until I have to explain it to people.</p>
<p>Hmmm... My S would agree with Squirrelgirl. It is true, in general, that explaining things to others clarify certain things and make them stick in memory better. If, however, others take more than 2 hours to grasp something that you learned in half an hour (meaning it took them 2.5 hours to reach the same level of understanding), there is a real mismatch in abilities. They should not be in the same class. That was the problem my S complained about when his 5th grade teacher suggested he could explain math to his classmate. He did not even realize they had not understanding of concepts he took for granted they should know. And unless he was training to be a k-8 teacherwhile in 6th grade, there should not be any reason why he should find out what they did not know and build from there.
The Harkness method used at Exeter does depend on explaining things to others. But the others are operating at the same level. This is true in general of college study groups. There is also a similar level of motivation. No one is carrying water for the rest of the group.</p>
<p>Foobs - my husband teaches chem, AP chem and physics at a high school with the kind of block schedule you describe. If your son is open to leaving, and the logistics work out - do it! The whole point of that type of block is to allow 8 classes per year instead of 7. This was done widely in our state in response to new high school graduation requirements for a 4X4 curriculum and everyone having to have algebra and geometry to graduate (for some of you who are floored that it took until 1995 to get these requirements, remember I live in Ala, ;)).
In practice what it means is that there is an extra class per year for those kids who are going to flunk algebra, geometry or English at least once or who really want to get to the "trade school", as we call it, for classes, and still have time for those core academic subjects. The people most hurt are are the college bound band geeks, sports kids and chorus kids at the medium large, "mixed expectations" high schools - who have to make decisions between band and English, or who may miss out on physics which, because of scheduling, is taught at most once a year, or maybe every other year, and if you are a senior on the off year - tough luck. Foreign language can be a nightmare, too - French 1 as a freshman, French II as a second semester sophomore, etc.</p>
<p>The schedule is efficient, science teachers like it because you can have "real labs", but if there are not sufficient resources, or a LARGE percentage of college bound students to skew the class offerings, then the college bound kids with serious ECs are the ones who suffer.</p>