Tough (high school) decision

Parents Forum
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<p>This is going to be long but I am struggling and would like any advice or thoughts you care to give. Here's the deal: our daughter and son attend a private Catholic high school. Daughter has been happy there since day one and we have been very pleased with the education she's received. </p>

<p>Son is a freshman this year. In the fall, he liked the school but this week he admitted to us in tears that he is no longer happy there for a variety of reasons, mainly social. This is not the first time he mentioned this to us but the first time that we really understood just how unhappy he is. Although he's made plenty of acquaintances and seems popular, he just has not found the same sort of great group that my daughter did freshman year.</p>

<p>He is an A student in all honors classes at this school. His teachers at the school all like him and he is on track to do very well there academically over the next three years. He did very well on his SATs in 7th grade for JHU CTY and I would expect that his junior year scores will be at least equal to that if not higher. </p>

<p>Here's the thing: the school will be relocating to a new campus next year. It will now be at least a one hour drive each way from our house, some days longer. We will be making the drive with our daughter next year anyhow and made the commitment to do so for the next three years for our son. A small factor to consider is that son plays football which means he will not be home most nights until 7 or 8 at night and will need to leave for school at 5:30 am every morning.</p>

<p>Our local high school is not the best but it is not the worst. It is a relatively new school that is still working out the kinks but it has improved since we looked at it for my daughter three years ago. This year they have a new principal who seems to have made some great strides in further improvements. But it is definitely NOT of the same academic quality as son's current school and I think there is a good chance that my son will not be challenged there intellectually, even if we can get him into all AP and honors classes. For example, the "honors classes" at this school are not really separate classes - kids get the "honors" notation on their transcript for doing extra assignments but are really in a "regular" class. Math classes are taught by computer - 50 kids in a room, working independently on computer with a teacher available for help as needed. </p>

<p>As I said, son is going to do fine where ever he goes in terms of grades and test scores, but he will probably not be as academically challenged at our local public. Still, he is asking us to consider sending him there next year. His main reason is that he wants to be with the friends he has had since kindergarten (he still sees them on weekends) and he wants to be closer to home. He understands that the academics won't be as good and says that if he is bored he will take community college classes (very do-able at this school because every child has a mandatory 2 hour study hall and the community college is right next door)</p>

<p>This has really thrown me for a loop. It is so unexpected and I am torn. My husband is firm that he should stick it out at the current school but I am wondering if it is really worth making him stay if he doesn't want to be there. Any thoughts?</p>

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<p>Hi Carolyn, </p>

<p>I vote to let your son decide. I think, from what you have stated, that he is the type of kid who will seek out more academic challenges than what the public school can provide. My son, also a CTYer, has augmented high school with 12 community college classes over four years (the CC is also right next door). It's worked out well and allowed him to take courses just for fun. I think with your S's football schedule, the friends issue and the fact that he would need to spend 2 hours(!) of his day commuting to the private school for three years is enough to give the local school a try. </p>

<p>It's a hard decision, but my vote is with your boy. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Carolyn, only your family knows how much your son wants to move and the quality of the schools involved.</p>

<p>Go to the high school he wants to move to and ask to see information about college acceptances for similar kids.</p>

<p>My sophomore son is taking a college statistics course online and he likes it. Last semester he took a psychology class at a community college and liked that too. Going to the community college for courses may be academically better than the situation he is in now... plus he will be accumulating college transfer credits. :)</p>

<p>Quality of life issues seem to favor the closer school, less time traveling in cars, home at better hours, friends .</p>

<p>If my son really, really, wanted to transfer, and the closer school was good enough academically in combination with the community college, I would say yes.</p>

<p>Plus, you would save money. :)</p>

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<p>Carolyn
I had a similar but different situation- but I hope my perspective can help your husband.
my younger daughter is the same age as your son- last year she attended a K-12 school but wanted to switch to a huge ( relatively) comprehensive high school to be with her friends. Even though I wasn't happy with her previous school- I was very hesitant to let her switch to a completely different sort of school- one that all her former teachers warned me that she would flounder in.
She didn't want to attend the brand new neighborhood school- where she could have walked and attended school with girls from her recreation league teams- she didn't want to attend the private prep school her sister attended- she wanted to attend an inner city comprehensive high school that was due to be refurbished after*she graduates.
After talking to her and to thoughtful recent high school grads who knew her- I decided that it was very important that she have a large say in where she attended school. After all soon she would technically be an adult and would legally have to learn to live with her decisions, so it made sense that since she was very vested in attending this school * and in doing well enough to quiet the naysayers, that I would allow her to do that.
She has done very, very well. Fall semester she recieved straight A's in 6 academic classes- as well as even the most studious of her friends. It has made a huge difference to her to be with her friends. Even though she only had a friend- in one class- knowing they were at the same school and seeing them at lunch was enough.
I feel that had I made her attend a school where I felt she would fit better, but that her best friends didn't attend, would make life very difficult for her * and me!*
It can be very difficult to fit in at a school that isn't working for you- high school is the time when you spend all those social chits you accrued through middle school, but if you don't have connection to those kids- you can be left out and never find your place.
I realize your son undoubtably is doing better than I did. Being on a sports team is a great way to find your place in a big school.But if he is this upset at spring break- and you can still get him into the school with his friends- I would do it.
Not to try and scare anyone- but I attended a junior high with a group of friends who lived on the other side of town. However for high school- they didnt go to high school with me as we had planned- they went to a brand new school in their neighborhood. So in high school I was left out from all the other groups that had formed in early adolescense. If I had been more outgoing and more sure of myself- i probably wouldn't have had so much problem, but as it turned out- the only group that accepted me, was the misfits- the kids who mostly skipped class to get high or just because they didn't want to do the work. I could have done the work easily- but it was more important to me at the time to belong to a group- and I eventually dropped out of high school. I am not saying that if you don't change schools or else your son will drop out- but if his friends are good kids and you like them- and the school is a decent school- I would let him make the decision- late adolescense is about a lot more than challenging academics.
+ since he can take online or community college classes- that sounds like you have that covered anyway.</p>

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<p>I'd definitely let your son decid. 2 hours a day of commuting is definitely a lot of life to lose, and he shouldn't have to do it unless he wants to (and wants it so much that he actually begs you to let him attend it). Plus with all the football - it will just be a nightmare of driving. Top students w/ good test scores at public schools do just as well (or better - less competition) in college acceptances. Do your son and yourself a favor (think of all that gas that won't be wasted!) and let him choose a close school, good friends and the opportunity for college credit while he is still in high school!</p>

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<p>Carolyn, are the kids in his group at the local school the type of kids that are good for him to be around? If so, I vote for the local school. </p>

<p>What are his college goals? Can he get what he needs at the local school (perhaps combined with summer enrichment elsewhere) to get what he needs? Our local high school is kind of borderline, yet I know that kids who are motivated have gotten into top schools (Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford, MIT, etc.).</p>

<p>I would not force him to go to a school where he is truly unhappy. </p>

<p>My daughter transferred last year from one high school to another because she was miserable. It was a good move. She is very happy.</p>

<p>Good luck. It is a tough decision.</p>

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<p>Very tough decision, but all in all I lean toward letting your S attend the public HS. The football comittment is what tipped the scales for me -- I just think it would be very difficult for even the best students (in terms of grades and self-discipline) to not eventually become worn down by that schedule. If the public HS was absolutely unacceptable I would of course feel differently, but it sounds like the school is at least trying to give their kids a challenging academic program, taking into account their financial/size limitations.</p>

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<p>Just reread your post--the community college is right next door? That is a definite plus! Iderochi makes a good point about the football. . .</p>

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<p>Carolyn, happiness is something that really is important to consider. Is there a chance your son could shadow a student at the prospective new school for a day....sitting in on classes, etc? Sometimes the grass "looks" greener on the other side, your son needs to see for himself if the grass really is better. Also, consider making a list of pros and cons of both programs (e.g. travel time, sports, academics, facilities, courses, ecs, social ops, etc). Maybe that will help.</p>

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<p>Carolyn, My daughter wanted to leave the school she was in and transfer to another one (in 9th grade) because she was unhappy where she was. She was so serious about not wanting to go back to the original school that I took her at her word that she would be much happier in the new school, and I had her apply there. The transfer wasn't my husband's first choice, but he agreed to deal with it for our daughter's sake. The change meant various kinds of struggles and sacrifices for us, but I haven't regretted it for a second, as I saw that my daughter was right about where she thought she would be happiest. I think you should let your son change schools, as that's what he really wants to do.</p>

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<p>Hi Carolyn,</p>

<p>don't you just love boys!!! OK, this is pretty much a no-brainer at least from my point-of-view with my 3 boys. You know how the classes compare academically, how is the public high school's football team? What division is the Catholic school in, are they in one of the lower divisions for size or are they comaparable to St. Bonaventures or De La Salle? What division is the public in? Does the public one have a summer football camp? Give the athletic director a call to talk to him or the assistant coach. If your son wants to leave his current school he should know what he is looking at in terms of size, practice time, bench time and how hard he is going to get hit.</p>

<p>If he is unhappy, to the point of tears (he is a football player) do not let this continue. It is just not worth it. No way, no how. I can't imagine what it took for him to tell you. Have him go to some of the spring practices at the local public to check out the team. He will have a better feel that way. Sometimes, the grass can seem greener but it isn't always. Better to check and know exactly what the lay of the land is before you pull him.</p>

<p>My kiddos were in Catholic school when they were younger and went to public for high school. Some had to do with finances, some with academics (gifted and talented programs) and the rest was the boys themselves. I can say they liked the switch for the most part and have really excelled academically. They were able to take college classes and the local publics have been very accomadating for all sorts of things. They were tops in their class at the Catholic school, but they were stars in the stratosphere at the public. And like I said, many of the teachers and administrators went out of their way to really help them fit in and especially shine.</p>

<p>DS#2 just received an award (plaque, presentation) from his varsity wrestling coach for being ranked #1 in his class as a junior and had some local sponsors donate for a summer camp wrestling scholarship, plus the cost of some of his college classes for his senior year of high school. Made a much bigger deal about his academics and successes than anyone ever did at the parochial. Overall, it has really helped the boys' self-confidence level, and has really helped to focus on their academics as well. My daughters' were also affected but not to the same degree.</p>

<p>And that driving time for him is killer. The extra time can be spent doing so much more and the extra money can be spent on college classes and all sorts of camps. And he will be with his friends from childhood.</p>

<p>Hope I have helped.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>We live in a small town and went thru a similar decision for our son. We felt that he needed more of a challenge than our local school could offer, but son really wanted to stay w/ his friends. An older and much wiser friend suggested that a such bright child would find a way to learn no matter where he was, so we made a deal w/ our son. He agreed to continue to take the most challenging classes and that even if the teacher could not do extra we would expect him to do extra on his own. It was the right decision and has not kept him back academically ; what's more, he has friends for life, which is actually one of the reasons we chose to live in a small town in the first place... Since your son is doing well despite his unhappiness, he is obviously a self-starter & since he's obviously given it a good go, I'd encourage you to let him have a say! </p>

<p>That said, you know your son! Has he made good choices for himself in the past? No doubt your husband and you are trying to do what is best for your son ; sometimes the better school is not the better choice! Good luck!</p>

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<p>carolyn:</p>

<p>1) are there any other publics in your district that your S could attend?
2) does he know the quality of athletes at any of the schools (playing time is much more fun than bench time)?
3) since you local is a relatively new school, what is the Principal's attitude towards honors/ap? Will s/he be looking to add such classes in the future. (btw: in Calif GATE law, honors/ap kids are supposed to be grouped together, and not scattered across all classes)
4) a relatively new school, what sort of placement rates/reputation do they have (if any) to some of our favorite cc schools? (it can take sometime for a HYP adcom do understand the school's offerings and even decide if they want to take a kid from that school)</p>

<p>Nevertheless, it's much better to "love the one your with" as opposed to dreading getting up every morning. It's likely that you S will shine better where he is happy. Plus, the cc option is perfect for advanced math or science courses.</p>

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<p>Because of a weird split, my son was separated from his best friends for junior high. Granted, they spend most non-school waking moments together, but he can hardly wait to be reunited with them for high school. He's made a few (just a few) friends in junior high, but it's they guys he's known since first grade that he wants to be with. Doesn't matter that they will probably be in different classes - they'll be at the same school. They are each other's support system. My guess is they'll all wind up at UT together.</p>

<p>Good luck with your decision!</p>

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<p>Two thoughts: let your son decide (that way there are no recriminations against parents!!) and if football is likely to continue thru h.s. then go for the local public h.s. The commuting and hours could be another emotional sore spot.</p>

<p>Given the vicissitudes of adolescent emotions, he could feel very differently in a week but it sounds like this has been brewing in him for awhile and won't alter substantially. Shadowing a friend at the local public h.s. would give him a concrete feel for the social dynamics there.</p>

<p>There is nothing worse than a miserable teenager and if this will make him happier, the other things will fall into place. He will still get in to a great/suitable/good fit college even if the h.s. academics aren't as strong, right?</p>

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<p>Carolyn:</p>

<p>It seems most posters advocate letting your son decide, and I will go along. As you know, my S has been attending a school that is not great in many ways, especially if we look at the median stats. And yet, there are enough high-achieving kids to provide a supportive group of peers and teachers who are willing to provide extra challenges. Despite the fact that, for two years, my S was in heterogeneous classes with a huge range of skills, he managed to do well partly through extra challenges, partly through access to college courses. An important factor in his success was his group of friends. True, he's not an athlete like your son, but I believe being with friends was important to him.
You might want to enquire from teachers, deans, principals, heads of departments, about the type of classes your S could/should take; the possibility of extra assignments (through participation in National History Day, for example). Would your son be interested in Mock Trial? Students seem to learn a huge amount of information and how to present it.<br>
Proximity to the community college seems like a great benefit. Sooner or later, if your S stayed with his Catholic school, he might want to take college classes, but the commuting would make it very hard. College classes, by the way, seem full of kids who've gone to CTY or TIP or similar programs.</p>

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<p>Carolyn: you've most likely read my threads about my kids going to the barely adequate public school, yet thriving in selective colleges. I'm definitely a believer in the idea that the kid has to be with the program; if he hasn't bought in, it will be misery for all of you.</p>

<p>Being in the public with their friends was very important to my kids. Most, though not all, of their friends were the Honors kids, with definite goals. They also both were in band, which gave them a "geek support group." :) </p>

<p>Unless the friends he wants to be with are totally non-academic focused (which I'd guess is not the case) I'd definitely send him to the public--and, as others have said, put the money toward the CC, summer programs, and other forms of enrichment.</p>

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<p>Oh thank you all so much. I have been miserable about this since last night (hubby and I actually had a bit of a row over it all) and it is helpful to hear from my CC friends that it is OK to consider this change.</p>

<p>Some answers to your questions:</p>

<p>(1) Football - Kat, laughed out loud when I saw your questions because, while this isn't important to us, it is to son. The schools are in two different divisions. Current school has an excellent football program, often ranked in the top schools in the state in its division. Professional level coaching staff, the facilities at the new school will be awesome. Local school's team is fine, not outstanding, but fine. I think son only cares about still being able to play which I don't think would be any problem at the new school. </p>

<p>(2) Friends at the local school are good kids that we have known since kindergarten. They are all pretty bright kids who enjoy school as well. We know their families very well and socialize with many of them --- it is sometimes hard at the current school because we don't have those community connections to get the inside dirt on who is in the "good crowd" and who isn't. One additional factor that we have found with our daughter even is that since the kids are spread out across a wide geographic area (and we are the farthest away), things like parties, dates, and even going out to the movies can be very challenging in terms of logistics.</p>

<p>(2) Classes - the attitude of the old principal at our local was that AP and honors classes weren't needed. The new principal has added the AP classes this year for the first time and is trying to beef up the honors program. Classes are "integrated" throughout the school with honors/regular/special ed students in the same classroom because much of the "instruction" is done via computer software. Classes are also co-curricular - i.e., there's no "English" and "history" classes but rather "humanities" classes that tries to do both. The science program is a bit stronger than our current school's BUT son will have to give up Latin, which he loves, and take Spanish. They do offer French but it is hard to get into the French class from what I hear.</p>

<p>(4) In middle and elementary school son did have a tendency to ask too many questions in class when he felt the pace was slow. This tended to drive his teachers crazy until we found out that giving him enrichment assignments seemed to satisfy him. I will have to see if this is the case at the local high school. In his current school, he has told me that he is excited by many of his classes because they are more challenging and the teachers don't shy away from his pestering. </p>

<p>(5) The public has only graduate one class so far - this year will be their second. Last year, only 10-15% of graduating seniors went on to 4 year colleges. Many just went to the local community college. I'm not all that worried about him getting into college, though --- I think I can help him in that regard and haven't been overly thrilled with the Catholic school's counseling for my daughter. Not bad but not exactly worth the tuition either. </p>

<p>Finally, my daughter and son are very different people. Daughter needs and WANTS a nuturing environment. Son (probably) doesn't have the same need and has always been much more independent than Daughter.
I think that the public definitely would not have been the right school for her (in fact, most of her friends from middle school have been miserable there) but could be OK for son. </p>

<p>Well, I guess I will have a lot to think about while daughter and I are on our spring break trip next week. My husband is planning to take a few days off during the week and has agreed to call the local public with some questions, including whether our Son could possibly shadow one of his friends for a day. </p>

<p>Thank you all. I can not tell you how wonderful it is to have other parents to talk to about things like this.</p>

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<p>Ouch. Knowing how much your S likes Greek, it will be tough abandoning Latin. S does say that Latin helps with Spanish, so maybe it won't be so bad. And if your son continues with CTY, he may be able to keep up his interests in classics.
I do think the two hours saved not commuting are really worth thinking about. In theory, one could do quite a bit of enrichment during these two hours (provided one does not sleep through them!)</p>

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<p>For the record, Carolyn, I'm always impressed when you come to CC looking for help considering how much you help others!</p>

<p>This reminds me of my daughter who's now in the process of trying to transfer from one college to another. It sounds like your son is demonstrating good decision making skills - he's thought this out (with input from mom and dad) and he's comfortable with his choice. I know some people think we coddle our kids too much but it is so much easier all around when they're happy and a good peer group is ESSENTIAL during the teenage years. Sounds like he has one plus you know the parents. So that means you'll know that everyone is on the same page regarding things like parties, curfews, etc. That is very important.</p>

<p>Also sounds like the public is trying to strengthen itself academically. In which case your son could be a leader in that area - maybe petitioning for AP classes or starting a club. I see some leadership opportunities there (if he wants them).</p>

<p>As to football, well, I think unless he's a potential recruit it doesn't make that much difference as long as he's playing on and being a part of a team.</p>

<p>This seems like a slam dunk to me (how appropriate during March madness!) and he sounds ready and prepared for the public school.</p>

<p>Good luck and have a great trip next week - I'll be looking forward to your trip report.</p>