<p>Here's my argument for elite schools for <em>some</em> kids ... the concentration of top students is higher at these schools than other schools. There are very smart kids at all schools however they are dispersed among a student body that on the whole may not be the sharpest or very academically focused. The big question is does this affect the applicant ... some kids could go to Party State U, find the other intellectually focused students, focus on school, and do great ... other kids would get drawn right to the parties. </p>
<p>So my question for you and your Mom is not a philosophical question about the elite schools and not so elite schools ... but who are you and what environment will help you reach your potential the best?</p>
<p>PS - when I say elite school I'm talking more like 50 schools and not just the Ivies</p>
Here's my argument for elite schools for <em>some</em> kids ... the concentration of top students is higher at these schools than other schools. There are very smart kids at all schools however they are dispersed among a student body that on the whole may not be the sharpest or very academically focused.
The first sentence above is obvious if "smart" means "tests well". It's when you get to the next sentence that the seemingly irrefutable logic in this common assumption falls apart. Obviously gaining the academic "cred" to be accepted to the top schools means you got good grades and test scores as well as, hopefully, accomplishments beyond the classroom. But it's no guaranty of being "sharpest" or academically focused. High-school doesn't lend itself to exhibiting true intellect much less showing how "sharp" you areand what the top "50 schools" use as admission standards doesn't either. I challenge you to find examples of successful people who've made a real contribution to our world and society who matriculated at these Ivies in the last twenty-or-so years and see if they exist at a higher incidence than in the population as a whole. I'm not asking you to go back far enough to include those like our current highest elected official in our country or his fellow alum named "Scooter"; just the past twenty years. The belief that truly stimulating people exist only or in disproportionate numbers at the Ivies gives too much credibility to factors that don't always mean that much in life. If the OP can prove this to parents by using examples of successful people who did not attend Ivies, this may be a more persuasive argument. Sure it's using hand-picked examples but you're fighting a well-established publicity machine in the Ivies and fair play may not be enough! ;)</p>
<p>I have a sibling alum of HYP, my dad was a drop-out-by-necessity from an Ivy, I'm a grad of a top-five public "Ivie", and my oldest started her college career at a top private U mentioned here. I've visited and spent plenty of time at many top schools and overwhelmingly I, and my kids, have found the kids there are no more committed to intellectual pursuits than they were in the average public high-school. And that is not much! My D left her top U for one of those under-rated maverick schools that resist categorization and ranking by eschewing standardized testing. There she finally found a community of intellectuals and learners beyond what she found in "ranked" schools. No shortage of slackers, either, but overall the intellectual environment and the creativity level far surpassed her previous experience and that of her high-school classmates at the highest-ranked schools in the country. Both of my Ds enjoy the stimulation of conference-style classes with small student-faculty ratios taught by full professors; an argument for avoiding most Ivies for under-graduate years. </p>
<p>The challenge is obviously to convince the OP's 'rents that success comes from beyond the Ivies perhaps even in superior numbers than it does from within. Of course this depends on your definition of "success". And parents are often too set in their ways. It's still worth a try, and best wishes to the Original Poster.</p>
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I challenge you to find examples of successful people who've made a real contribution to our world and society who matriculated at these Ivies in the last twenty-or-so years and see if they exist at a higher incidence than in the population as a whole.
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<p>A couple responses ... </p>
<p>First, I'd bet however you defined "real contributions to the world" that elite school grads are overrepresented as compared to the general population or even as compared to all college attendees. That said I wouldn't claim that has anything to do with the schools themselves as much as a higher ratio of highly motivated attendees probably leads to a higher ratio of "real contributions to the world"</p>
<p>Second, I am on this site in context of my three kids and their ultimate college experience. My goal for them in college is that they find a place where they are intellectually challenged, explore new ideas, explore new experiences, grow and mature as people, and hopefully turn out to be good friends, spouses, parents and citizens of the world. At the end of all that hopefully they will come out gainfully employed and doing something useful ... I have no illusions that they are all destined to do make a "real contribution to the world" ... if they do great ... if they live a good life and provide for their family that's great. </p>
<p>(Again by elite shools I include about the top 50 or so schools)</p>
<p>Well, Proud Dad's argument might work with your mom. I don't know her. It wouldn't work with me, though. I generally avoid being convinced when someone uses anecdotal evidence as "proof" that overall trends must be incorrect.</p>
<p>It may be the case that many schools fit, I only know about the few schools I know about. I just thought that, since things had evidently shifted a bit on this thread towards making specific nominations, such as you yourself did in post #33 above (which actually started this digression trend, it looks like), I would add mine.</p>
<p>But I got the idea from a parent on the Barnard sub-forum who investigated that not every place has lots of Russian, for one thing; especially among smaller schools. Couple that with the need for great creative writing and great art, and it is possibly not so ubiquitous a combination actually.</p>
<p>BTW, reminds me, Barnard covers creative writing and Russian, not sure about art..</p>
I only know about the few schools I know about. I just thought that, since things had evidently shifted a bit on this thread towards making specific nominations, such as you yourself did in post #33 above (which actually started this digression trend, it looks like), I would add mine.
Yep, but then Bard really is the perfect school for what the OP asked for. ;) Strong writing, great art, and a Russian hook few others can match. </p>
<p>Give russiasaurus' mom a couple of minutes alone with Leon Botstein and he'll convince her!</p>