Hello everyone, I have recently been accepted to all these schools, but I have no idea on what to do in terms of deciding where to commit!! Amherst College and Williams College are practically full rides, but I live in California so UCLA and UCB will be relatively cheap to attend.
I intend to major in math, with a minor in CS or the other way around.
I would like to learn more about the pros and cons of each school. Particularly, the California weather attracts me to UCB and UCLA, but the small class sizes attract me to Williams and Amherst.
Giant public universities most known for their graduate-level research vs. small, rural (Williams) private LACs focused on undergraduates and considered among the best for undergraduate education. Above all they represent a fundamental CULTURE difference. Do you want to be a small fish in a big pond? Or would you prefer a small, intimate and academically intense environment? Maybe as a Californian, it would be good for you to live on the East Coast – it’s very different (and not just in weather) and very interesting, and it would give you deeper understanding into this country. But first and foremost you need to decide about the kind of vibe you want and the kind of community you’ll thrive/live in for the next four years of your life.
Since no one has yet mentioned the major-specific academic considerations yet…
If you intend to major in math, how advanced are you in math?
If you will complete college sophomore level math (e.g. multivariable calculus and/or linear algebra) while in high school, then consider whether the larger math departments at the UCs would be helpful in terms of selection of upper level courses (see catalogs and schedules on the colleges’ web sites), the possibility of taking graduate level courses, and lots of research activity to join in. The usual advantages of LACs with smaller lower level courses would not apply to math courses if you have already completed the lower level math courses while in high school, but could apply to courses outside of your major.
Williams does have a stronger math department with more offerings than most LACs, while Amherst is in a consortium with University of Massachusetts - Amherst that could allow taking additional upper level and graduate math courses.
However, if you intend to major in CS instead of math, then the considerations are slightly different. In addition to the upper level CS course selection (again, see catalogs and schedules on the colleges’ web sites), consider entry to courses and major. I.e. if the CS courses are always full, that may mean more difficulty getting into them.
Also, both UCB and UCLA have restrictions on entering the CS major, in order to keep enrollment in CS courses within capacity. At UCB, you need a 3.3 GPA in three lower level CS courses to get into the L&S CS major (the EECS major is also possible, but very difficult to change into if you did not apply for and get admitted to it directly). At UCLA, getting into the CS major is very difficult if you are not directly admitted to it.
I would expect all of the fish in these ponds to be big. UCB and UCLA would be big ponds full of big fish, while Williams and Amherst would be small ponds full of big fish.
For major-specific pond sizes, graduates in major in recent class at each school, from NCES College Navigator:
Math (including applied math and variants, but not statistics):
40 Williams
44 Amherst
299 UCB
416 UCLA
Computer science:
45 Williams
25 Amherst
~800 UCB (532 L&S CS plus assumed majority of 331 EECS)
255 UCLA (213 computer science plus 42 computer engineering)
Math is a strong department and currently the second most popular major at Williams (after economics).
However, computer science is too popular for the availability of courses; some freshmen who intend to major in it were blocked out of the intro course this year.
Relative to the UC’s, of course, the northeastern colleges will be cold, and turn dark early, for a lot of the year. If you are excited to experience the beauty of autumn leaves and snowfalls in New England, then that may be a plus; otherwise, you may prefer the warmth of California.
The other big difference between the UC’s and W&A is size. Williams and Amherst are similar in many respects, and share these advantages and disadvantages of small colleges:
Class size and course catalog: Students will experience more small classes at W and A, right from freshman year. However, the course catalogs will be less extensive than at a large UC.
Research and Professor Access: There may be more cutting-edge research at a big university, and students with a highly specific research interest may be more likely to find a professor who shares it. But at W and A, the professors will have undergrads as their research assistants, instead of graduate students. Professors at W and A are expected to be excellent teachers, not just excellent researchers/ writers. And they are very accessible- they know each student’s name and may join them for meals and events on campus.
Community size: If you like to meet a lot of new people and be able to reinvent yourself periodically, a large university gives you more flexibility. If you want to know a reasonably high percentage of people in your class by the end of four years, and be part of a tight-knit, nurturing community, which leads to very, very loyal alumni with a strong network, then W and A may appeal.
Here are some distinguishing features of Williams:
The tutorial system. Two students take a class with the professor. Each week, one student prepares a paper and the other reads the paper and prepares a critique. Very intense, but amazing.
The freshman entry- Your child will live in an “entry” with about 39 other freshmen and 3-4 Junior Advisors (who are like big brothers/ sisters and do not have any disciplinary role; they are unpaid and chosen by their peers, not the college). Your entrymates are a built-in friend group when you first arrive. And each entry is designed as a diverse microcosm of the college community, so you will really experience the diversity of Williams.
The freshman orientation program- Start the year with two weeks before classes start just to make friends and get used to being away from home. Do a bunch of activities with your entry mates. Read a book and debrief it with a professor and a group of students. Sign up for an Ephventure of your choice with another group of students, and spend intensive time getting to know those people as you go on adventures together.
Winter Study- a month every year in which to study one subject pass-fail, possibly going to another nation in a travel class or doing an internship in a potential career field. With lots of free time to socialize, enjoy winter sports, and be active in your clubs and activities.
The happiest students at Williams will enjoy being in the mountains (and enjoy traditions like Mountain Day, when classes are cancelled and students hike up mountains), and being on a tight-knit campus where most of the action (student performances, guest speakers, club and sport activities, activities like All Night Trivia, etc.) takes place on campus as opposed to off-campus. If you crave more off-campus action, you may prefer the UC’s.
You have some great choices! Which is best for you is a matter of personal preference.
What you might consider is to first decide between Cal and UCLA and Williams and Amherst. Once you have a favorite from each, you should think hard about whether you want to be in a more rural and beautiful campus with a very small student population, or a larger campus. There are pros and cons of each and sometimes it depends where you are coming from. (I think kids who grow up in an urban environment sometimes eventually find the transition to small college life more difficult, and vice versa.) But it’s really more about each individual’s preferences. But those are great choices to have.
Hopefully you have a chance to visit at least the top two.
@katliamom Thanks for the input! I definitely want to be uncomfortable and attend either Williams or Amherst now because of the small intimate environment. I just don’t know how I will personally react to East Coast weather. I feel that the environment would also fit me well at Amherst and Williams. Another concern for me is the food lol. Do you know if there’s access to Asian, especially Vietnamese food at Williams and/or Amherst?
I am currently enrolled in Calculus BC, so I would enter college taking multi-variable calc, linear algebra, or differential equations. Do you think I would still be able to pursue graduate work at this rate? Also, do you know of the CS departments at Williams and Amherst? Thanks for replying to my post!
@TheGreyKing Wow, thanks for the long and informative response!! I also heard that Williams has three math professors that have won the Distinguished Teaching Award of the Year of which no other university in the country has more than 2. It is very appealing. Also, your information of how most events take place on campus is extremely helpful! I was really concerned about the surrounding areas of Williams and Amherst and how it is a rural setting with not much to do. I am used to a suburban/urban environment where there are many events going on at once.
With the 4-1-4 academic system of Williams, do you know if students will have a break in December or January? I would love to have some type of break to come back to California.
Honestly, I’d just go to UCB as it is not that much more expensive and has one of the best math/CS departments in the world. You can’t really go wrong with a giant public school. More than that though, UCB is right next to silicon valley and has a much larger reputation.
Two weekdays after a weekend in October (“reading days”)
Wed-Sun at Thanksgiving
There is a two-week break in December between the end of first semester and start of Winter Study
5 days between Winter Study and second semester- weekend plus 3 days (“Dead Week”)
Spring break- This year, 3/16-3/31
Students may stay on campus for the shorter breaks if they want (October, Thanksgiving, Dead Week). Students were allowed to stay for spring break this year, too.
Students with travel issues can make special arrangements with the college to stay on campus in December break, but would have to switch to only one dorm for the week. Generally, everyone goes home in December and most go home in March.
For shorter breaks, some go home, some choose to stay on campus, and students who live closer by sometimes take home their friends who live farther away for shorter breaks like Thanksgiving.
So, there is plenty of opportunity to visit your home during the year if you want!
As far as Asian food goes- dining halls will serve some and there is an Asian fusion restaurant within walking distance of campus, on Spring Street. You can also give the dining halls your requests/ recipes and they will try to accommodate them sometime! But yeah, you may miss the variety of neighborhood restaurant choices at a place like Williams versus the California schools!
@duhherro One advantage of Amherst is that it is part of a thriving college centered community in the Pioneer Valley with the 4 other colleges of the Five College Consortium and over 30,000 college students within 10-30 minutes of each other. The Town of Amherst is bookended by Amherst College on one side and UMass Amherst on the other. With such a large student population, the Town of Amherst and nearby Northampton (home of Smith College) have some wonderfully varied dining and shopping options. A free bus system Pioneer Valley Transit Authority (PVTA) provides regular access to all 5 colleges and towns including nearby shopping malls. FYI there is a popular Vietnamese restaurant Miss Saigon within quick walking distance of the Amherst College campus along with dozens of other restaurants. Yelp lists 69 restaurants in Amherst alone with 90 restaurants in Northampton and that doesn’t include other dining options in neighboring towns S Hadley and Sunderland (home of Bubs BBQ always a student favorite).
Are you planning on attending admitted student days at Amherst and/or Williams?
The main concern if you are highly advanced in math is running out of suitable math courses as an undergraduate at a small school or math department. But it looks like you are not advanced enough in math for that to be a problem.
Re: Math/CS - you have 3 good major options it seems, at Amherst. Math, CS, Data Science/Statistics. Or more than one of these. In addition to the courses at Amherst, there are courses not only at UMass but there are advanced math/CS courses at Smith and Mt Holyoke (and maybe Hampshire) as well. So if there is an math/CS/Stat class you want but it’s only offered every other semester - not the one that you want to take it - you may find it at one of the other schools. My kid did this.
TheGreyKing pretty much nailed it in his/her description of Williams. I will also repost here my thoughts on math at Williams, from another thread:
I don’t know much about computer science at Williams but Williams has an absolutely spectacular math department that places a huge emphasis on teaching. The profs won’t be at the level of Princeton math professors in terms of research, of course, but [as you seem to have heard about] six Williams math profs have won the leading national teaching award for college / university professors (only three awarded, nationally, each year), and four are still teaching at Williams:
The Department as a whole has also been recognized for its excellence, and the award release provides a nice summary of the philosophy of the math department:
There are many similarities and some important differences between Williams and Amherst. Have you had (or will you have) a chance to visit both? Your comments so far have led me to believe that you may benefit significantly from the 5-college consortium (Amherst) rather than the relative isolation of Williams, but you truly can’t go wrong here. Congratulations on having these excellent choices, and on narrowing them down this early in the decision process! You can return to California for vacations and summers, and ultimately attend graduate school at Cal or UCLA if you so desire. Good luck with your choice!
I understand the Amherst/Williams rivalry having family who attended both. They are phenomenal schools. But if you are interested in anything science or math related, Amherst College’s new science center represents the largest capital infrastructure in the school’s history. It is an architectural marvel and behemoth. Although Williams was great to visit, the students seemed very cohesive, a bit more artsy. A big con however is the Williams environs: one sole side street in town is just too small to occupy curiosity of a college full of emerging adults, and the town too remote and rural. The town and 5 college area has a lot more to offer. But congratulations, your acceptances are pretty rare and should be commended. Go visit!
Note that Williams, like Amherst, is in the midst of a massive reconstruction of its science facilities – a massive new lab building was just completed, and a second massive science building is currently under construction and will be completed in around a year. So both will offer truly state-of-the-art science facilities. Both the Williams and Amherst projects are 200 million plus investments. https://www.bpcmag.com/case-studies/williams-college-science-center-renewal-project/