Help! SAIS vs. KSG--Deadlocked!

Graduate School
1

<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>So SAIS gave me a 2/3 funding fellowship but it is tied to area studies that is not my first choice. BUT...I still think I can do what I want to do at SAIS. The econ training will be really helpful for me. </p>

<p>Still, I feel like KSG is the best program for what I want to do (international education policy).</p>

<p>What concerns me is that either way I am going to end up in debt. 50K at SAIS, 100+K at KSG. </p>

<p>Personally, I think I'd be happier in Boston than DC.</p>

<p>HELP! I've run this through too many times in my head.</p>

2

<p>Ladyseacow: </p>

<p>1) What do you want to do when you get out? I mention this because I think there are several paths you could take. The one you take would determine my view.</p>

<p>2) Coming out of either of these schools with that much debt is going to be tough, not that you don't already know.</p>

<p>3) Related to question 1, are you thinking about doing a PhD?</p>

<p>My general take is that KSG would be better unless you want to get a PhD in which case I am not sure it matters. Did they give you a Canadian studies fellowship at SAIS? That was a popular one, always.</p>

3

<p>Let me put this to you bluntly:</p>

<p>If you think you can go to harvard and take on 100K+ debt and actually work in public education policy, you're an idiot.</p>

<p>If you want to work in the public sector, go where you will have the least amount of debt. If youre just another international development student who can't resist the pull of Harvard's name, go for it, but realize that you will almost certainly be working in the private sector for several years after you graduate.</p>

4

<p>I just made my grad school decision yesterday and, honestly, it was sort of nice to have strangers give me their strong opinions about my own dilemma. I say SAIS. That is a big difference in cost and, even though I know KSG/Harvard have more to offer in your specific area of interest, a much lower loan obligation will make it a whole lot easier to pursue your passions. So take SAIS, pursue an amazing and relevant internship next summer to fill in curricular gaps, and then go for a dream job at the end. </p>

<p>But first tell KSG about SAIS's offer. Tell yourself how close to matching it would have to be for you to accept, then see what they say. </p>

<p>BTW, I've decided against SAIS (for money reasons and fit reasons), and I'm going to be pretty sad to leave DC. I'll pass on some DC love if you choose SAIS.</p>

<p>Did you (or anyone here) go to SAIS admitted students day?</p>

5

<p>Thanks all. </p>

<p>Incredulous: I would want to go public, non-profit, think tank or multilateral. I am open to working in the US but the long term goal would be to work outside the US. The fellowship was for Southeast Asian studies (with guaranteed assistantship + summer internship). The catch: I have to study a southeast asian language I'm not so keen on studying. I had wanted to study French but the funding is tied to the area study. </p>

<p>JM: Thanks for being straight up. The thing is, I want to do policy analysis. SAIS's program seems to be macro-econ trade and monetary policy-type orientation. Can I still get the tools to do program development and evaluation? </p>

<p>And is 50K too much debt for a public servant? I am looking at 26K in tuition debt at my current rate + living expenses. </p>

<p>African Studies: I know what you mean. It seems like strangers can be the most honest when it comes to decisions like these. Example: my SO is being artificially "neutral." Anyway, big congrats on your decision and I'm so happy for you that Yale came through. </p>

<p>I have done what you said--I've appealed Harvard's FA decision and am doing as much as I can to secure outside funding. Keeping my fingers crossed! Have an extension to decide till the end of the month.</p>

6

<p>AS08: I went to the SAIS Open House yesterday (as well as Fletcher and SIPA earlier this week), and I think you made the right decision. I absolutely loved SAIS as a school and overall program, but the African Studies information session was entirely underwhelming. It does seem to be improving gradually year after year (particularly since Peter Lewis took over), but it clearly lacks a certain level of strength at this point that would justify spending $55k/year on a degree for it given other, less expensive options. Granted, the econ component sounds incredibly strong at giving all students a solid quant skill set, but if your goal is to immerse yourself in African Studies, I'm not quite sure it's the best place to do it. Current students even mentioned that the department lacked a lot of course offerings (gender issues, refugees, migration, etc.), and that the only way to really get those aspects was to take the general courses in other departments and then apply what you've learned generally to the study of Africa yourself. And there were no offerings (from what I can remember) in African history or culture, despite the faculty's statements during the sessions that these were important aspects to implementing proper regional policy. In total, the program seemed small (about 20 students for both years, including PhDs), the course offerings slight (about 6-8 a semester), and the funding minimal (though getting much, much better).</p>

<p>So, now I'm very undecided. I want to do development and thought African Studies might be the way to do that at SAIS (since I didn't apply to IDEV), but the AS session was really the weakest part of my day at SAIS. However, I definitely think SAIS outshines SIPA in regards to its faculty (SIPA's faculty — with the exception of perhaps Esther Fuchs and one or two others present that day — seemed very elitist, cynical, and distant), administration, and course offerings. So...any advice for me? I can do development at SIPA, but I prefer the feel, student body, and faculty at SAIS. Though I still liked SIPA — moreso than Fletcher (unlike a lot of people), which I've ruled out as an option. Is it worth going to SAIS if I can't study exactly what I want and feel that my particular program is weak? I'm also interested in developing a strong quant-background, and SAIS seems slightly better than SIPA for this. So...help!</p>

<p>Oh, and in contrast to the OP, I received no funding from either school. Still not sure how it works at SAIS, but at SIPA you get money your second year if you score a first semester GPA of 3.2 or higher (according to one of the students, at least).</p>

<p>As for the OP, I'd agree: given your field of interest, the least amount of debt is probably best. It's not like you have to choose between a strong and a weak program — you have two fantastic options.</p>

7

<p>Lady,</p>

<p>If you can succesfully appeal Harvard's FA decision and then attend there, then that is obviously your best bet. However, if your appeal doesnt work out I think you need to be conscious of the tradeoff between debt load and your future career path. It is extremely difficult to enter the public service when you have massive debt of the type KSG will saddle you with. I think that 50K debt is managable even if you go into the publiuc service but anywhere north or 75K starts getting dicy.</p>

<p>Consider this: many recent JD graduates from top schools who go straight into coporate law making 140K a year+ still have to live quite frugally to pay back their law school loans. 100K is A LOT of debt. Keep that in mind.</p>

8

<p>decidedfactor,</p>

<p>As a current SAIS student, I can tell you that it's very possible to transfer into IDEV after you enroll. I know two people who switched into the program right before Fall semester began (they were originally Latin America and Africa Studies concentrators, respectively, and both had strong IDEV backgrounds). You will have to meet with the program director (Frank ***uyama) to get his approval, but it seems to me that as long as you have some IDEV-related experience, you shouldn't have a hard time transferring in. </p>

<p>I would also recommend taking intermediate micro during the pre-term in August (even better would be micro and macro, but that's pretty intense)....the one person I know who was not permitted to transfer into IDEV was denied on the grounds that she hadn't yet taken intermediate micro. As long as you do this in per-term before regular classes start, you should be good to go. </p>

<p>I'm glad you enjoyed the Open House....it was fun for us current students too. I think Fletcher is a really good school, but would not recommend SIPA. Everyone I've talked to who has gone there has been, at best, ambivalent about the experience. The biggest critique seems to be that it's very large and impersonal and the university tends to treat the program more as a cash cow than anything else. While I'm sure many of the professors are top notch, I hear that the most famous ones (such as Sachs) don't even teach classes for SIPA students.....so you will be out of luck there. Fortunately, all of the famous professors at SAIS teach.</p>

<p>Finally, all of the 2nd year students I've talked to say that it's pretty common to get tuition assistance your second year. </p>

<p>Good luck with your decision and let me know if you have any more questions.</p>

9

<p>IR Guy,</p>

<p>I am someone who wants to go into development/public policy work but has little quant background and funding that is tied to the Southeast Asia program at SAIS. </p>

<p>a) What are your thoughts on the program?
b) How difficult will it be for me to get skills in dev econ?
c) What are the support systems available for folks with not much of a quant background?
d) What would you estimate living expenses in DC to be? I know that the website puts it at around 15-20K--true?
e) Is the econ orientation very macro-level policy vs. program development and evaluation-type skills?</p>

10

<p>Hi Ladyseacow,</p>

<p>a) My impressions of the SEA Studies program are very positive. I'm taking a class on SE Asian Security Issues this semester (taught by the assistant director of the program) and it has been both informative and enjoyable. My girlfriend is also taking a SE Asian development class with Bridget Welsh (who I've heard is pretty well-known in the field) and she has gotten a lot out of it...although she also says it's very challenging. I can put you in contact with her if you want (she's an IDEV concentrator). </p>

<p>b) I know they offer several development-related econ courses, including microfinance, which is very popular right now. So I don't think it will be difficult at all to get skills in dev econ. </p>

<p>c) I think you'll find that most of the students at SAIS don't have much of a quantitative background, excluding maybe coursework in intro micro or macro. That's one reason why the school requires certain econ courses.....they want everyone to have a decent level of knowledge by the time you graduate. So I don't think you'll find the econ courses to be any more challenging than most other students. Every econ class also has a TA, although these can vary widely in quality. But at least you will have that extra level of tutorial support. Also, the school sends out pre-calc and calculus DVD's to new students so they can refresh over the summer. These were actually very helpful for everyone I know. </p>

<p>d) If you want to live anywhere near school, expect to pay no less than $1000 for rent a month, and that's only if you get a good deal. You can cut costs a little by living further away (or even outside the district), but then you'll have to deal with the metro and long commutes, which I don't recommend. Almost all of the people I know who started school living far away (Northern Virginia or Maryland) have since moved to the Dupont Circle area because it's much more convenient. So with rent, food, and other stuff, I'd say that 20K a year is probably a realistic estimate. Getting by on 15K would require a very spartan way of living though. </p>

<p>e) The required econ (micro, macro, intl. trade, and monetary policy) is very macro-level policy oriented. You'll probably be able to find some econ courses that deal more with program development, but I doubt there are too many. If you want, I can put you in touch with a development person who knows much more about this than me. </p>

<p>BTW, I also considered going to KSG, but realized that SAIS and the other IR schools are much more focused on international relations than the public policy schools (to some degree this is obvious, but it really hit home when I visited the different schools). However, our interests are very different, so I admit that my case isn't very comparable to yours. </p>

<p>Feel free to ask any other questions. Good luck with your decision!</p>

11

<p>Hi IRguy,</p>

<p>Thanks so much for the reply. Really, really helpful. Would love to be in touch with people who are in development and who have taken SEA courses.</p>

<p>Are these area studies courses ones in which you apply econ theory or is it more like readings and then discussion? I'm done with the liberal arts style--I need some SKILLS! :) </p>

<p>Is the macro core curriculum very theoretical, or is it somewhat practical? </p>

<p>You know, it may seem obvious but to me, it's not. What do you mean by these schools are dedicated to IR so much more than the public policy schools?</p>

12

<p>IDEV concentrator @ SAIS here, if you have any q's ask away :)</p>

<p>HoT</p>

13

<p>Thanks for your response IRguy, very thorough and thoughtful.</p>

<p>You echo my exact worries about SIPA...though I did enjoy the Open House and I really like the curriculum for their Economic and Political Development program (particularly the consulting workshop), I'm worried I won't get the alumni and career services support that seems so integral to the other top programs. The tough thing for me is that I don't have much IDEV-related experience aside from a few courses in undergrad. I scored high enough on the quant. GREs to qualify to take both intermediate micro and macro during pre-term, but I only took 3 econ courses as an undergrad (micro, int'l trade, int'l finance...skipped macro for some reason). I'm fluent in French (spent a year of my undergrad at Sciences Po), and I'd like to focus on Africa (for which I've heard English and French are the two most important to know). Do you think it's still possible for me to switch into IDEV given my background?</p>

<p>Does anyone know anything about the EPD program at SIPA and how it compares to the IDEV concentration at SAIS? Are they generally considered as comparable, or is the IDEV concentration at SAIS supposed to be a clear step above EPD at Columbia? Is it the academics at Columbia that are lacking, or is it merely the administration?</p>

14

<p>Helen, I see that you're in Bologna, care to talk a bit about how it's been? I am thinking about switching to go there, but the exchange rate makes it much more expensive than DC. I've been living in DC for a few years, and the idea of taking off for a bit appeals to me quite a bit. How has the cost of living been? Are you satisfied with the classes and professors there?</p>

15

<p>Honestly, it's expensive but like any place it has its pros/cons. If you carefully pick your profs (and stay away from Italian ones - with exception to 1 or 2 decent ones), you should be fine (Harper #1, Plummer #1, Jones, Doctor, Amman, Moses)! Housing is not nearly as comfy or convenient as in the States, shops close around 7pm, public services (post office, banks) around 2pm...it's a bit annoying! Food/wine/travel opportunities are the pros of course...but the FX and inconvenience are cons (apts are not as furnished, internet is a wishful thinking, heating/hot water can be a problem if you don't solve it in advance). On the other hand, studying with 35 nationalities, hearing 20-30 different languages in the hallways is an amazing, rich experience! :)</p>

16

<p>Hi Ladyseacow,</p>

<p>Glad I could be of some assistance. I'll try to answer your other questions as best I can.</p>

<p>Are these area studies courses ones in which you apply econ theory or is it more like readings and then discussion? </p>

<p>I can't comment on this, because the only area studies courses I've taken have dealt with security or general foreign policy issues. I will try to get someone to post to this thread who has taken developmental area studies courses. </p>

<p>Is the macro core curriculum very theoretical, or is it somewhat practical?</p>

<p>For the most part, the core econ is theoretical/conceptual. You don't get into the weeds too much. The intent is to teach people the basic concepts and theoretical models of intl. economics. That being said, the theory is kept to a very basic level and the instruction is intended to give you a "practical" understanding of intl. economics so that you can apply it to your job in the public or private sector. </p>

<p>You know, it may seem obvious but to me, it's not. What do you mean by these schools are dedicated to IR so much more than the public policy schools?</p>

<p>By this, I meant that everyone at SAIS, Fletcher, MSFS, or SIPA is studying something relating to international relations, whereas at KSG or WWS, only a portion of the student body is focusing on that area. This affects the culture and atmosphere of the school. At the IR schools, EVERYONE was into IR, and it seemed to make the student body more cohesive. The other thing that turned me off about KSG MPP was the required curriculum, which if I remember correctly, included courses that didn't relate directly to IR (although they were related to "policy" in general). </p>

<p>But again, my interests are different than yours, so our perspectives certainly aren't the same. It seems to me that you are genuinely excited about KSG and policy in general, even if the cost is daunting. I'd say go to the place that you have the best FEELING about, or to put it another way, go to the place where you think you will have the least regrets. If you think you might regret turning down Kennedy 10 years from now, then that's a pretty good indicator of where your heart is. I know it's cliched to say this, but you really should follow your heart. This will probably be your only opportunity to get a Master's degree, so be sure to go where you think you'll be most satisfied.</p>

17

<p>Helen of Troy and IRGuy--thanks so much!
Helen, I'd love your insight on dev courses--how difficult is it to gain a specialization in Dev Econ? How integrated are dev skills/tools in area studies, e.g. Dev in Southeast Asia/Asia? </p>

<p>IR Guy/Helen: One criticism I've heard of SAIS is that there is no thesis project like at KSG. Does that hurt one in the job market/for further study?</p>

<p>Have you heard that area studies folks are at a disadvantage when it comes to generalist jobs, e.g. at the World Bank/UN? I was looking at the graduates of the SEA program and it looks like a huge majority of them go on to jobs specifically related to SEA (often right in SEA).</p>

<p>Also, what's with the large number of people in the private sector? Is this because they cannot get employment in the public/non-profit or is that the starting intention?</p>

18

<p>Well I don't know what's "worse" a thesis project or 2 comprehensive oral exams in front of the Intl Econ & IDEV panelists/judges (haven't heard if that hurts your prospects but SAIS employment record is impeccable). IDEV is not difficult but you have to come prepared in microeconomics. You can choose your regional specialization within IDEV, I picked Latin America and take classes from regional studies! If you have spec questions, PM me :)</p>

19

<p>Hi! </p>

<p>I'm a current SAIS IDEVer and I've taken courses with all three members of the SEA dept - all of whom are fabulous! Welsh in particular is amazing- and her course will definitely leave you with skills. (As will the others- Jackson is famous for keeping students up till 3am at the end of the semester to write a group policy memo.) There are people in all the regional depts who take a lot of IDEV classes- so I think its possible to emerge very well prepared.</p>

<p>As for econ- there is a possibility within the econ dept to specialize in development economics, if you want to go more in depth- which many people do, but its optional. You could also just take a course or two such as micro-economics of development if that is your interest.</p>

<p>You will also have room in your curriculum for a few general IDEV classes, so don't be worried that you're missing out too much. </p>

<p>I agree with all the other advice given to you here by IRguy and Helen! </p>

<p>For those of you here wondering about transfering into IDEV- it isn't too hard but you are expected to have some work/living experience in a developing country or in the field of development generally, so keep that in mind if you're coming to SAIS and hoping to transfer in. Another good strategy would be to email Prof. Dornsife (acting director) directly and just ask how good your chances are- she'll tell you! </p>

<p>Good luck to all of you in your decisions!</p>

20

<p>Did you decide?</p>

<p>Also, I love how helpful people are on this board.</p>