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<p>I know some people who did accelerated BS/MD programs. If they could do it over again, most would not have taken that path due to its intensity and severe constraints on academic exploration and social life. </p>
<p>As for law programs, one thing the UK does that the US should consider doing is not only making law an undergrad or at least a transfer-type program like UCB describes, but also a one year conversion course for qualified graduates with other bachelor degrees.</p>
<p>Okay, JHS. I thought you were saying you had to make a definite choice to be a physician by the age of 13 in any European country.</p>
<p>I am not sure it happens it middle school in UK. India and UK have similar systems and the break is after 10th.</p>
<p>ddahwan - Fascinating and troubling.</p>
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<p>How would that be different from those who do the usual pre-med path, where course selection is constrained by both needing the pre-med courses and GPA management (i.e. avoidance of difficult or rigorous courses outside the pre-med specified courses because of fear of getting a grade lower than an A)?</p>
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<p>The mainstream 4-year pre-med path in such programs ends up getting scrunched up into 3 years or sometimes even less because the 3-4th year in the program is often the first year of medical school for many of them. </p>
<p>Think not only having to take excessively high credit loads…but that most of them are pre-med core courses with less flexibility for academic exploration due to time/workload constraints of the accelerated BS/MD programs. Not to mention the fact that one needs to keep up that GPA at a reasonable level defined by the program to maintain eligibility for med school entry…even if it is slightly relaxed.</p>
<p>The Ohio (Akron) program is the NEOMED (North East Ohio Medical School) which is 6 years plus but they start the summer after high school and includes further summers I think. </p>
<p>The AMA would never go for a 6-year MD, heck, even 6-year pharmacy is out the window (a lot of schools are 2+4). My cubemate’s kid is trying for a 6 year in-and-out Pharmacy and most of the good programs (and insanely expensive) are 2+4 or even Ohio State’s 4+4…</p>
<p>1) Why attack Beliavsky for his choice of thread topics? You don’t have to read them.</p>
<p>2) The reflexive mocking - oh, 5-6 years, do you want to be like Brazil - misses the point. The UK and Australia also have an undergraduate medical degree system, and it would be hard to argue that their doctors (from their own system) are worse on average, or worse at the top, than US doctors.</p>
<p>3) If I needed a liver transplant I would seriously consider having it done in China. Don’t underestimate the abilities of the top end of a system that serves over a billion people.</p>
<p>4) Thousands of new US doctors a year were trained under the 5-6 year undergraduate system - mostly from India. They seem to integrate in pretty well, for the most part.</p>
<p>Despite their foreign medical education,all foreign medical graduates have to be retrained here (completing another residency) in order to practise here.</p>
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<p>I’m convinced all you need to do is reward intellect more in admissions, and the kids will be able to do it, regardless of where they went to school.</p>
<p>Sorghum with all do respect. My husband is a doctor. Graduated in South America. With two residencies degrees, one in US one in Canada. He is the director of a fellowship and a residency program that has trained doctors from all over the world, specially India. I ask you. Why do they come here to be trained? If you go to any college, boarding school, residency, fellowship program, why do you see so many people from Asia,South America, Europe, Middle East? Because despite everything everyone says, the US has the best medical training in the world.</p>
<p>I also believe that the US has the best medical training in the world, and that’s why many FMG come here to train. However, they also come here to live and make money, and they can make more money here usually than they can in their own countries. Many of them hope to live and work here as their goal. </p>
<p>And though I can get scornful of medicine in other countries, I am also reminded that when I did residency, one of the procedures that was up and coming for an abdominal emergency in children was developed in China, where my (radiologist) husband said many exciting innovations in radiology have their origins. And one of my friends’ daughters just returned from Italy, where she did a Physical Therapy rotation as part of her PT doctorate program, and was amazed at the hi tech stuff they were doing, well ahead of many academic centers in the US. So I need to be humble and recognize that in much of the world, medicine is quite modern and patients are in good hands.</p>
<p>We are comparing US 4 year MD training with 6 year MB BS type training. There is nothing mystically wonderful about what the MD student learns in a US medical school. Of course, I agree, the real learning comes after graduation.</p>
<p>If people want to spend 4 years learning about Greek painters before they go to med school, so be it - let them spend the time and money doing so. But to force everyone (or at least a big majority) to do so is a waste to society and a money maker for the Universities. Unfortunately, it doesn’t stop with this. If you go into some specialties, you have to go through the entire training that an internist is given before you start with cardiology, or whatever, where the time & resources could have been better spent for both the specialist and opening more slots for internists. I still can’t understand why is it a highschooler is informed enough to make a decision to become an engineer, but can’t do so to become a lawyer. </p>
<p>As to FMGs coming to the US, the reason is not their desire for better training, but overwhelmingly for better money following the training, compared to their home countries.</p>
<p>Many doctors do make more money here is true, but a great number go to back to their home countries. And while techniques are developed in other countries is true, the oversight and patient protection do not compare to the standards we have here. I have seen American doctors going to train new eye surgery tecniques in Central America because of the lack of liability.</p>
<p>It is quite obvious that good patient care in the US is much better than in MANY countries, but it is not better than in SOME countries - other advanced western economies in particular.</p>
<p>And even a country which does not provide absolutely the best medical practice can still have perfectly functional medical schools which provide a product that can be trained into highly competent specialists.</p>
<p>I went to the Penn State-Jefferson Medical College accelerated BA MD program when it was a 5 year program ( one year plus 3 summers at Penn State and 4 years at Jefferson). I dropped out of the program, stayed in college for 3 years to earn my degree (2 actually), got a regular job, then went back to school for my MBA.</p>
<p>I wanted more time in college to pursue other interests, not just complete core requirements and take science classes. Some who completed the program regret the loss of their college years, some are happy they did it that way. I would not encourage my children to do a similar program. A guaranteed acceptance to medical school is very nice, but I want them to grow and develop as people during college.</p>
<p>My personal thoughts based on experience…</p>
<p>Our D looked into a couple different UG/Med school programs. They had 7 year options where your last year of UG was really your first year in med school. You were accepted based on high school GPA/ACT/SAT as well as an interview process. They had parameters that had to be met every step of the way to stay in the program. The 7 year program required students to take a minimum of 18 credits each semester not including labs. They had an 8 year option as well. The coursework was exactly the same, just more compressed in the 7 year plan. She opted not to attend either of these schools for other reasons (and against our advice :D).</p>
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<p>These thoughts are exactly why I started this thread.</p>
<p>I recall Knox College in Illinois has a “guaranteed admission” agreement with Rush Medical University in Chicago, which allows a handful of admitted students obtain a “guaranteed” med school spot at Rush after graduating from Knox. I think that several students are added after two years at Knox to that same class list. I suspect that several other LACs likely have such an arrangement with a particular med school. Knox is a great “sleeper” college that unfortunately doesn’t get much CC attention.</p>