Wondering if anybody has had any experience with a high-stat child who is/was in an honors college or program in a mid-tier school. I’m wondering about class rigor outside of the honors courses at these schools, and if the student feels that it is high enough, or if the normal course selection can at time seems ‘too easy’? Since we are looking for merit awards for my daughter, schools with honors programs have been a staple of our search. I’d never really considered the lack of rigor, but a family friend mentioned that they knew a few students in the honors program at a school that we are looking at, and they were unhappy with how their classes with the ‘regular’ student body seemed too simple.
I figured if there is access to research and honors programming to take up down time, that this would make up for some easy classes. Has anyone else had this experience with their child, or know of a situation similar to this? Any things I should look into more at the schools we are considering? Questions to ask?
What do you consider mid-tier? I have not heard of many students thinking “regular” classes at a state flagship are too easy. Most are grateful to stumble into an easier class here and there to offset the very difficult ones. If by mid-tier, you are talking about a regional university or a directional university, then I don’t have a lot of experience with honors programs at those schools.
If faced with that, I agree with you that a student could offset boredom with research, leadership roles, work, etc. that are resume builders for both grad school or a job search. If they are truly too gifted for the classes, these opportunities should not be difficult to find.
@gettingschooled Yes, that’s a better definition, as most of the programs we are looking at are indeed at state flagships, so maybe ‘mid-tier’ was not the best description.
It is probably hard to generalize. A lot of top students enter with significant credits. That means they skip over some of the the lower gen ed courses and jump into upper level classes with jrs and srs. Majors are self-selecting. How many hrs do they take? what does the honors program offer? Is it just extra classes? Or does the program provide extra mentoring, UG research opportunities, create a peer group, etc?
One thing to consider is whether the student’s major is seen as an “easy” or “gut” major at the particular school (it may not be so at a different school, but some other major may).
I think it all depends on the school and your D’s major. It’s a YMMV situation. S is in an honors program at a school that was a safety by stats, but he applied to one of the most selective programs there. As mentioned above, he had 23 credits coming in from AP classes, and he has jumped into mid-level courses from the beginning, and is pretty much done with his gen ed requirements. He should be able to take a couple of minors, or graduate early at this pace.
While I don’t think his classes are necessarily “easy,” because he had the flexibility to do what he wanted from the get-go, he actually enjoys his classes and is doing well in them. I feel like he is probably working on par with what he did in HS, and he seems to be doing well. He is also taking a course of study that he enjoys, so that obviously helps too.
D is in an honors program at a Jesuit school. While some of her non-honors classes could be more challenging, the level of rigor in her Honors classes more than makes up for it. She’s also pushing herself by having a double major as well as a minor, and participating in multiple research opportunities and extracurriculars. For D, small, seminar-style courses is how she learns best, and her honors courses are capped at 15. Her honors course on robotics had 9 students. The relationships she’s developed with some of the Honors faculty have opened all kinds of doors for her.
Honors programs vary wildly. Some don’t do much at all except stick a label of honors on a couple of classes. Some have separate Honors housing - which is good or bad depending on your viewpoint. D’s college stopped having separate Honors housing a few years ago so the honors kids spend more time with non-honors kids. Honors has offered many extra activities including museum trips, visits to the symphony and such. I’ve heard some schools offer early registration for Honors. Some honors programs require a capstone project or thesis.
If there’s any interest in smaller private schools, look at some of the mid-tier Jesuit schools for merit aid.
My DD is also in an honors program at a large state school and it has been a good experience. The honors classes she took as a freshman were tough. She is majoring in CE, so even the regular classes weren’t easy. She takes 18 hours a semester, she is getting a minor in a totally different area. She is in the top of her class and that has brought her to the attention of the faculty for research opportunities as well as internships. Honors housing was good and the friends she made she has kept. She is taking a couple of required GE classes this semester that she finds easy but it is a nice break from last semester with multiple lab courses. Overall - a great experience for her and she is taking advantage of all opportunities.
My D. was in Honors college (not sure about mid-tier or whatever, we did not check the rankings, she did not care about rankings of the colleges that she applied to). The major attractions at the in-state public that D. had chosen to attend were acceptance to a very selective program that had only 10 spots for incoming pre-man and full tuition Merit award. However, D. made sure that the college and the student body there fits her personality and very wide range of her interests. She had UG experiences that were far beyond our expectations and achieved her ultimate goal of being accepted to few Med. Schools.
One thing that did not coincide with the OP expectations at all - the Honors and non-Honors classes were exceptionally challenging, which was actually shocking news for my D. who graduated #1 in her private HS class at #2 private HS in our state. There were only 3 exceptions - the Gen. Chem., Honors English and Stats were easy, but the level in these classes was plenty enough for D’s future and after Gen. Chem. class she actually did not need to prepare Gen. Chem for the MCAT. These classes were easy for her primarily because of her HS classes and great teacher there. She had witnessed some Honors kids (her very small Honors program had only top 200 kids, primarily valedictorians) who actually did not survive on the pre-med track, got derailed in the very first Bio class in the fall semester of the freshman year. The reason for this valedictorians to drop out of pre-med was the failure to adjust their academics levels up at college.
So, do not expect your top caliber student to have an easy time with academics at college, it will not happen, I guarantee that. My kid had to work exceptionally hard to achieve a top college GPA required by Med. Schools.
In regard to Research opportunities, it was plenty at D’s UG, including the Med Research internships despite the fact that D’s university did not even have a Med. School. D. was interning there for 3 years with the result of great LOR for Med. School.
18 - 19 hours a semester was normal semester hours for my D. She had to have a bit lighter schedule in junior and senior year to allow preparation for the MCAT and travels to Medical schools interviews. So, in senior year, I believe she had only about 16 hours / semester. She did not take a single summer class, her Merit scholarship did not pay for summers. She was able also to graduate with the Music minor.
Actually, Honors classes are considered easier by some because of the prof’s accessibility. D. did not find them to be more difficult than non-Honors.
My son was in an honors program at a large OOS flagship. At times he actually considered dropping out of it, because they made the program so much more difficult than it needed to be…probably in an attempt to please those who were deciding between that route and a more highly-ranked school. However, he was an engineering student, so even the regular classes were not a cake walk. OTOH, he had friends that were majoring in something “easy” and appreciated the honors classes a little more, but felt that their writing was graded much more severely than it should have been.
A friend teaches bio and chem at a local HS. Sometimes kids come back from their college classes with examples of their college work. In our state, the science classes at our mid-tier are more rigorous than at the state flagship. Business classes are easier at the mid-tier.
One more aspect that I forgot to mention.
One needs easier classes to have a balanced semester schedule. D.'s goal was to have only 2 very hard classes per semester, with the rest easier. She would not be able to pull a college GPA of 3.98 if she had only hard classes in her semesters. So, take advantage of the easier classes, use them to balance your schedule. As a warning, some easier classes can actually be the most time consuming also. That was the case with the Honors English and Paper Making. The other warning is that some easy classes may result in actually lowering your GPA simply because you miss certain talent. That was the case with singing classes of Music minor. D. did not have any voice training nor she was in choir prior to college. She had to sign the duets from the sheet music with great voices of Music Majors and she got her 3 A- in these classes. So, easier does not mean at all that one would sail thru the class.
My daughter has also applied to our state’s flagship honors program but we will be furthering our investigation to determine if she will accept or not (assuming she is accepted). Her plan is to double major (math/stats and business data analytics) and then get her masters in statistics. Her coursework will already be hard enough and we need to do the pros/cons of the honors program to see how it might benefit her. She doesn’t need a program that is piling on unnecessary work just to increase rigor.
Valid question OP … honors programs aren’t a slam dunk for every high stat kid. The program needs to be considered with the kids major, aspirations, social needs, work ethic, etc… Good luck!
I’m working on accumulating anecdotal data on a theory of mine…
If a particular college is a good fit in most ways, the honors program can often take the school from being a good fit to a great fit. Conversely, if a particular college is NOT a good fit (wrong geography, too pre-professional or too preppy or single sex or too whatever) then the presence of the honors program- whether well executed or just some window dressing, is not likely to make a difference.
I know a lot of kids who chased the money at an honors program at a college which otherwise did not meet most criteria- and most of those kids were either unhappy, transferred, or took a long time to graduate because of semester’s off, a year abroad with only half credits transferring, etc.
So this is a hypothesis I’m working on- and so far, plenty of anecdotes to support. Just the honors designation, AND the better dorms, AND some classes specifically for Honors kids, AND some special advising, is likely not enough to move the needle on a bad fit school. YMMV.
And OP- for some kids, it just doesn’t matter. They can pretty much go anywhere and get the most out of any situation, have friends, get involved, do their thing. if this describes your kid- you can stop worrying!!!
I completely agree with Blossom and it coincides with the comments of my (then!) 17 y o HS senior who simply said: “I will do fine anywhere”, but what she meant by anywhere was a place that matched her personally and her wide range of interests very well, and that was the big reason for her not to be bothered with any rankings. All other things will follow. The kids who want to be challenge beyond their academics will find the way to challenge themselves in a positive direction, I would not worry too much about it. Most classes will be challenging at ANY place, some will be used as fillers to balance the schedule. Do not overlook one important factor, misery usually does not produce results, make sure that your kid is at the place that she can call her second home for the next 4 years.
I think you need to look carefully to see if the Honors College has a lot of Honors Classes that meet gen eds, especially if your daughter is planning to major in humanities or social sciences and/or if her APs are not sufficient to skip 1st year classes (or if she’s in IB and didn’t take AP exams at SL level, since many universities don’t give credit for SL even when it more or less matches an AP class.) This is a lot of tedious work for the parent, since you need to know what each college requires, how they treat AP/IB (including if they grant credit for some and not all APs) ie., email Admissions, then see how much will remain. I will add it is often a good idea for students, even higher level ones, to take seminar gen ed classes in college, where the focus is on depth rather than breadth (ie., Piracy in the 16-18th century vs. Modern European History).
A good resource is this book: http://publicuniversityhonors.com/yes-we-have-a-book/
All “5 mortaboard” and “4.5 mortarboard” programs listed here are excellent: http://publicuniversityhonors.com/new-top-programs-by-category/
Some Honors programs only offer 1 class per semester to the students - those are not good picks for a high-stats kid.
@blossom I think that’s a good theory that will probably prove itself out. I (I’m going to drop the ‘we’, since it has mostly been me so far) have painted the initial search with a broad brush (merit+honors). I think in the end I’ll find that we may not need an honors program at all (my daughter is currently interested in eventually doing medical research of some kind, but won’t want to pursue med school). There are some schools with programs that have competitive admittance to certain programs, and may provide all the rigor we want…assuming they admit directly to the program (tOSU comes to mind).
I have a copy of the book mentioned above and find it useful, but honors program/colleges vary in what they provide so much that it is difficult (for me anyway) to consume it in that format. It’s a good starting point to then look at the websites.
I am a big fan of big universities for kids like your D, Quan. The fact that the school of education has lower admissions “stats” than your D- just not relevant. The presence of some recreational studies majors in the cafeteria- not going to reduce her exposure to what she needs academically. The Divinity School, Ag School, etc- they can either be positive or neutral, but definitely not a negative (and attending a lecture or two on medical ethics sponsored by the Div School is a good thing for a young prospective scientist).
Honors or not, there is no large research U in the US that couldn’t provide opportunities for an ambitious undergrad. So the issue is not the university- it’s your D. Initiative, self-starter, a bit of a self-promoter? She’ll be fine. Less of an extrovert, doesn’t like to toot her own horn, needs some support to speak up and assert herself- a structured Honors program may be really helpful for her.
Our son is applying to two schools with honors programs. One requires an extra application, a thesis, and a 3.5 GPA to stay in. He’s not applying to this one. For the other admission is automatic for students receiving the top two scholarships, and a 3.25 is required to stay in. He’s seen the list of classes offered the past semester, and says he’d probably do this one. Now HC one may look better on a resume, but for him it isn’t worth it.
A good public honors college/program should have approximately 40 honors sections per 1000 honors students in the fall semester. Having reviewed honors colleges for 4 years, I can say that many flagship honors programs easily beat this ratio. On the other hand, it is wise to verify how many sections are in the disciplines of greatest interest to a prospective student. Sometimes econ, business, and even advanced math sections are limited.