<p>And again, by focusing on the Big Scary Predator, we’re missing the point that the vast majority of women are raped by men they know, by their roommate’s boyfriend’s friend, by the guy from the “brother” fraternity, by the guy they just broke up with… Not by strangers with histories of sexual assault.</p>
<p>We ignore the fact that boys are not taught that drunk means no, that no means no, that anything short of a clear yes means no. </p>
<p>Everyone, no matter their gender identity, needs to make safe choices. And as parents, it is incumbent upon us to teach them to do so. By couching it in terms of “don’t do this or you’ll be in danger of being raped” (or conversely, “do this and you won’t”, which is darn silly because women have been raped sober and wearing nun’s habits), by implying there is absolute control of men’s behaviour and that it can and should be exercised by women rather than those men, one absolutely makes it about the victim.</p>
<p>“We hold drivers responsible for driving while drunk”. Yes, exactly. When was the last time we heard this comment about someone hit by one: “well, he knows the bars close at 4 a.m.-- what was he thinking driving on that part of the freeway when there might be an impaired driver going the wrong way on it?”</p>
<p>Personally I find your reasoning about the drunk driver not very persuasive. There are rather predictable consequences and those that are far less predictable.</p>
<p>And nothing about what I said had anything to do with whether the assailant is known or unknown to the victim. It had only to do with providing oneself with the greatest chance of avoiding a bad situation. Yes, to go back to your driving example, one could stay off the roads entirely. But that’s absurd, and you are missing the point of that which is only to talk about bearing the responsibility for one’s own actions. That doesn’t mean one bears all the responsibility for what happens next, or even most of it. Of course, one can be stone cold sober, do everything else right, and still become a victim. It happens every day, unfortunately. But that isn’t at all what we are talking about here, and you are changing the topic by bringing those examples into the conversation.</p>
<p>It is not silly to say “don’t do this or your chances of something bad happening increase”. We teach our kids things like that from a very early age. There are things I do to try and avoid getting mugged, and there are things women should do to minimize the chances of getting assaulted and raped. That doesn’t mean it won’t happen. But since we are talking about college here, and so many of the assaults reported involve the woman being inebriated, it bears discussing.</p>
<p>I really don’t think it is too much to say that, while certainly the emphasis should be on punishing men for criminal behavior and, if possible, teaching them to avoid the situation in the first place as well, the reality is there will alays be criminals and there will always be men that use very poor judgement in these situations. Given the min/max equations (in other words the terrible consequences of a poor decision such as what we are discussing), it is also important to continue to emphasize that getting drunk, and especially getting drunk without a sober companion, is putting oneself in a worse situation than the opposite.</p>
<p>“Of course, one can be stone cold sober, do everything else right, and still become a victim. It happens every day, unfortunately. But that isn’t at all what we are talking about here.”</p>
<p>Well, no, that’s a very big part of what’s being talked about here. Because that is exactly the reality that is involved in rape, and in the reality of it.<br>
Look, perhaps I’m misjudging, but I’m assuming you’re a male parent, and a generally nice guy. For generally nice guys, particularly those of a certain vintage, I’m guessing it’s probably pretty horrifying to think one cannot control circumstances on his daughter’s campus (or his alma mater, or wherever) and that women are raped in a place that should be the site of safe, life-enhancing experiences. I totally get that.<br>
The thing that women have known, and lived with, for a really long time is that no matter how much we might have been taught we can control men’s behavior (via parental admonishment, via school dress codes which say girls cannot wear sleeveless shirts because boys find them distracting, via popular media which objectifies young women and portrays young men as mindless dupes)…we can’t. Men have to control themselves. Because when it comes down to it, rape is not a crime about sex, it’s about power, and it’s (once again) mostly not committed by Big Bad Evil People. By all means, teach your kids-- of all gender identities-- about Big Bad Evil People. There are a few out there. But by and large, rape is committed by guys who often have, themselves, been drinking, guys who make stupid choices when they’re with their buds, guys who think lack of clear and clear-minded consent is just sex and not rape, guys who think girls with previous sexual history and/or short skirts are “asking for it”, guys who think lesbian women “have never been with a real man or they’d like it”. </p>
<p>I don’t disagree with most of what you said (especially the part about me being a nice guy ). And perhaps we are talking past each other a little bit. I am strictly talking about the assaults that occur when the woman is drinking and to some extent that inebriated state contributes to her not being able to defend herself as well as she might have otherwise, and with making poor choices about going into a room alone with a male, stranger or not, at a party. If this were a relatively rare occurrence at colleges, then I could certainly be accused of being off point. But unfortunately a great many of the cases involve drinking by both parties, and it is the woman that bears the physical and psychological trauma. In those cases and to that extent, drinking to that excess or, if you know you want to drink that night not having a sober companion, represents bad choices. In all other cases, I couldn’t agree with you more.</p>
<p>@petrichor11
I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying you make yourself vulnerable by making yourself a more desirable target to sexual predators. Think about it who would you want if you were a predator being accused of rape in court: A girl who didn’t drink at all the night in question and was not dressed provocatively and was not looking for sex or the girl who was plastered drunk, dressed provocatively, and was looking for sex. It’s not rocket science to know that you could convince a lot of people that sex was consensual with the latter girl or she’s an unreliable witness. You don’t have that same level of opportunity with the first girl. Back to what I said, the victim doesn’t share in the responsibility of the rape but she does have responsibility for making herself more vulnerable to rape. It has nothing to do with men not being able to control themselves for most cases. </p>
<p>Niquii77 basically stated the same sentiment if my post was at all unclear</p>
<p>@fallenchemist: I appreciate your effort at narrowing the argument down to a fine point, and not bringing in predators or false Madonna/whore dichotomies.
I’m still not sure we’re on the same page, but we might be edging a bit closer.
Let me ask this, then: if we are indeed, as responsible parents, to caution our daughters that they should dress, drink, and socialise a certain way, what is our responsibility as parents of sons? </p>
<p>@petrichor11 - Actually I am not in the camp that includes dressing and socializing a certain way as being on the same level as drinking to inebriation. To act like tank tops/short shorts or flirting is inviting rape is absurd. Now obviously one can bring up outrageous examples of behavior for those two aspects, but they are not the same thing because they don’t impair a woman’s judgement. No is still no. Which is one thing, to answer your question, that we must teach our sons. No equivocation, no rationalizing, no excuses. I was never more disgusted than when I heard about the Yale men wearing shirts that said “No means yes, and yes means anal”. Frankly I would have suspended every man that wore such a shirt immediately. We must teach respect, equality of choice, and what true consent really means. And taking equal responsibility for protection, of course. That, at least, is the context of the talks I have had with my son. But the sad reality is that not all parents are going to get that message across to their sons and/or some sons will make bad/criminal decisions anyway. That is why the women have to take the extra measures, unfair as that is. What is fairer is that the criminal liability rests solely with the perpetrator, but of course then it is too late.</p>
<p>I hold drinking (and some drugs) in a singular category precisely because it affects judgement, memory, and physical reaction abilities. I don’t think young women shouldn’t drink. It is going to happen, period. They just need to learn better to keep it within bounds, or have the sober companion agreement. The latter of which includes calling campus police if, in a drunken state the drinker tries to wave off the sober companion. These are the kinds of measures that have to become more normal and accepted by all, given the reality of college drinking.</p>
<p>I teach them that people will form judgements about them according to how they comport themselves and how they dress-- they don’t wear their pants pulled halfway down their butt.</p>
<p>At this point everyone knows what to tell their daughters to keep
Them safer. But even if they do all of these things, they may be raped. Make sure your daughter knows to go to the local police and not campo if raped, to get a rape kit before showering, and to get to a survivors support group ASAP. If your daughter chooses to pursue campus reporting and you can get her an attorney, do so. </p>
<p>As for the young men, be aware that campus policies are changing. They used to favor the rapist. I would not count on that anymore. Look at drunk sex like drunk driving. Just don’t do it. </p>
<p>Parents also teach their children not to sneak out and not to drink underage. If we can’t get them to do these simple things for their own safety how are we expected to get them to respond to a lesson for someone else’s safety. Teaching men not to rape may be the fair thing to do but it would not be effective (in my opinion) for reducing rape which is the ultimate objective. </p>
<p>We can only try to preach (not teach) about respecting each other and educating people on the legal definitions and most importantly create an atmosphere where rape is not glorified. But even with all these measures there will still be rapists (probably just a little fewer than there are now), but at least then we’ve changed the atmosphere and we can at least put some disinfectant on what has become a major staff infection. </p>
<p>The thing is that if women don’t do things like dress provocatively and drink to the point that they’re passed out, it would be a lot easier to prosecute rapists and that would probably have a large impact on reducing the number of rapists and this would be more effective than maybe showing a couple of males that rape is wrong or their ideas of consensual sex are wrong (I believe these messages only truly impact a small percentage of males).</p>
<p>It’s just become the difficult decision between security and freedom; You can have all the freedom you want but at the same time you usually forfeit your security in the process.</p>
<p>Focusing on the ‘Big Scary Predator’ is exactly where attention needs to be focused. Studies on college rape (Lisak & Miller, 2002) and junior enlisted Navy personnel (McWhorter, 2009) both found the overwhelming number of ‘date’ rapes are performed by a very small number of serial rapists. Of almost 483 college rapes, 44 were one time actions by the rapist - the jilted ex or frat boy who didn’t know what no meant. The other 439 were committed by 76 predators who knew exactly what they were doing, averaging almost 6 victims each. In the Navy study it was more dramatic, with 822 rapes committed by 96 serial rapists and 40 rapists who only committed one. They often do have a social connection to their victim, but they certainly are predators. You are correct that most rapes are not committed by strangers, but most rapes are not an accident or misunderstanding of consent, they are attacks committed repeatedly by a very, very small number of predators. </p>
<p>So as parents, when we teach our daughters to be careful about how they dress, drink, and socialize, it is far more about watching out for the guy who is out to get you than a general ideat that women need to be careful because men can’t control themselves. It is a small number of very bad men who are extremely manipulative that are the problem the vast majority of the time.</p>
<p>As for sons, no means no and intoxication does not imply consent are parts of the lesson. But the bigger lesson is in general to have respect for others. </p>
<p>And to battle the predators amongst us, it’s about watching eachother’s backs. Don’t let your friends get into risky situations, and don’t fight them when they’re keeping you out of risky spots. Don’t let your friends be the manipulative ‘pick-up’ artist. Predators appear friendly, then separate the victim from the herd. Normally I’m all for independance, but sometimes there is safety in staying with the herd.</p>
<p>My parents told me to be careful driving at night because there could be drunk drivers about. I told them to screw off and tell drivers not to drive drunk.</p>
<p>Poetgirl I agree that we need to discuss this with sons as well. Men of character don’t take advantage of drunk women. Men of character also do not get so drunk they lose their ability to make good judgements. There can be consequences when you do not get a confirmed yes from a girl capable of making that decision. You are ultimately responsible for the decisions you make so be smart about it or can negatively impact the future you are trying to build for yourself. I don’t have a son but that is at least part of the message I would be giving him.</p>
<p>Rules in the 80’s: guys were required to go to training to learn that “No means No.” Now, the required curriculum is more comprehensive: when a young woman consumes alcohol she is particularly vulnerable. Silence is not consent. Friends (guys and girls) should keep an eye out for predators to protect the vulnerable. I wonder what Betty Freidan would teach young people today about keeping safe on campus.</p>
<p>“IMO, this was a terrible article for a lot of reasons. It reads like a conservative attack on survivors who dare to speak up.”</p>
<p>How in the world did you make this political? Shame on you for perpetuating the problem in our society today-the inability to have a mature conversation and to RESPECT different viewpoints and opinions, regardless of whether one agrees.</p>
<p>I have a son in college. I have a daughter who soon will be in college. Do I give them the same talk?</p>
<p>I have told both of them if you don’t want a haircut stay out of the barbershop. I don’t think it is a good idea for either one of them to put themselves in situations that most likely will not end well. That means you don’t drink so much you don’t know what you are doing. That means you don’t ever leave your drink unattended. That means you keep an eye out for your friends. </p>
<p>Is that sexist? It seems like common sense. </p>
<p>I also know that my son is far less likely to be assaulted because he is a male-is that sexist? Is there any room for common sense here? The main problem is you have a bunch of kids set loose away from home and they can readily get their hands on alcohol and drugs. Mix that together and you get all kinds of situations that they really are not equipped to handle.</p>
<p>If this attention makes kids think twice about getting involved in hooking up I say good-why is that a bad thing? </p>
<p>I have told my daughter if anything happens to her she is to report it to the police-not the campus police the real police-and get the medical attention she needs. A rapist is less likely to skate with prompt reporting and physical evidence. I have told her not to feel ashamed or responsible if she is assaulted-she has had a terrible crime committed against her by a criminal-period.</p>
<p>It appears most of the cases that cause such a gray area involve diminished capacity for whatever reason by one or both parties. I tell my kids don’t be one of them-</p>
<p>I know my son drinks and enjoys himself-I hope not to the point of becoming unable to make the correct decisions. You raise them and you hope what you have taught sinks in and when push comes to shove they do the right thing.</p>
<p>I agree with most of what Pepper03 said except for one detail. If you include unwanted sexual encounters due to inebriation as sexual assault then the difference between men and women drops considerably. It gets close to 45% (Men) to 55% (women). That leads to something even more concerning which is that men are basically told from puberty that if you have sex with a woman no matter under which conditions it is good whether it is a teacher taking advantage of her students or sleeping with a girl he would never have slept with without a .05 blood alcohol level. Most guys are told they would be lucky to wake up naked with someone from the other sex when women are told that if that happened to them the guy should be thrown in the electric chair. </p>
<p>These kinds of flexible rules where it depends on the gender are the reason most of these “no more rape” modules at schools aren’t very effective. You can’t have different rules for the same situation and not expect confusion and consequences.</p>
<p>Human natures tend to have a hard time accepting “no” as an answer. I had been to “hook-up” parties before and I found out that guys seem more aggressive to girls who rejected them. They can not fathom that a girl reject him so he goes to the extra step to “persuade” that same girl. </p>
<p>This is also a two way streets. Girls must be smarter than this. Yes, the guys will take the most bulk of the responsibilities, but the ladies must know when to step out that scene before its too late. I believe an education among freshmen college orientation would be a good first step. When to say no and when to get out before it is too late. </p>
<p>What is dumb is if that if the man and the woman are equally drunk and neither can legally consent to intercouse the legal and moral burden usually falls on the man. </p>
). And perhaps we are talking past each other a little bit. I am strictly talking about the assaults that occur when the woman is drinking and to some extent that inebriated state contributes to her not being able to defend herself as well as she might have otherwise, and with making poor choices about going into a room alone with a male, stranger or not, at a party. If this were a relatively rare occurrence at colleges, then I could certainly be accused of being off point. But unfortunately a great many of the cases involve drinking by both parties, and it is the woman that bears the physical and psychological trauma. In those cases and to that extent, drinking to that excess or, if you know you want to drink that night not having a sober companion, represents bad choices. In all other cases, I couldn’t agree with you more.</p>