Hooks That Work

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Admission to Ivy League and similar caliber schools should not and needs not to be based on just GPA and SAT. If that were true, then all of the Ivies would be filled with nothing but bookworms who do nothing but study. By accepting kids with "lesser" stats and with some dedication to a select number of EC's and have made themselves unique through their essays, the Ivy League and those top schools are ensuring that their graduates will succeed after college.

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<p>Sure, who wants to go to a top school with a bunch of geniuses when you can share your classroom with a lacrosse goalie or some kid who got in by collecting the world's biggest aluminum foil ball and writing a "cool" essay about.</p>

<p>Mensa160,
Not everyone who is smart has the desire to go to an Ivy. If what you want is being around the smartest people possible, my suggestion is to go to the most stat-driven colleges possible CalTech and Cooper Union and, I think, possibly University of Chicago are more stat driven than are Ivies. </p>

<p>Instead of complaining about colleges that look at other factors as part of admission criteria, choose to go to colleges that have the kind of atmosphere that you desire for your undergraduate education.</p>

<p>"Sure, who wants to go to a top school with a bunch of geniuses when you can share your classroom with a lacrosse goalie or some kid who got in by collecting the world's biggest aluminum foil ball and writing a "cool" essay about."</p>

<p>mensa, at the top schools, that goalie and that aluminum collector are likely to be academically accomplished and profound thinkers as well. If you're looking at selective schools, your attitude is going to trip you up. Elite colleges want it all -- and they can get it.</p>

<p>Mensa you don't need to be snide about it. You asked for advice about hooks; people tried to help you a little; don't shoot the messenger. </p>

<p>Can it be that nothing at all interests you? I find that hard to believe</p>

<p>Mensa mensa mensa....do you have goals, ambitions, passions? Anything?</p>

<p>so let me get this straight......even if u don't have any big school ECs or anything u do after school that is not at home.........but u do have some passion that u do at home allllll the time.......then an IVY will like u more than a person who does the former?........how would u even be able to show this passion ........for example, someone said that a person should collect bugs or something.......would u then send the college a sample of ur bug collection......would u simply list it on your EC list..........if that is the case, then why is it that an admin officer can see that someone is not being true when they see a laundry list, but its ok for someone to list some obscure activity that an admin officer can't even verify?..........couldn't people (if they had nothing else of course) just list some "passions" then?...........i'm pretty sure admin officers have realized this, and don't like either case.......they won't like u with a laundry list....and they won't like u with some obscure activity u might have just listed for the hell of it.......</p>

<p>jaug1, thought that happens sometimes, generally you will see more 1500's get accepted than 1400's, and more 1400's accepted than 1300's. This is true for almost every college. Thought ivies are the ones that look more at EC's, a large portion of schools in this country look only at stats (mainly public schools).</p>

<p>...but your bitter and sarcastic remarks about basketweaving and "world's biggest aluminum foil ball" are uncalled for. It also makes it EXTREMELY doubtful that you are really a genius - someone with creative, insightful, brilliant thought processes, as opposed to a grade grub or one who does great on bubble-in tests. If <strong>I</strong> had been your Ivy interviewer, you'd get a 1 or a 2 from me --- out of the top of 9 points: someone we definitely didn't want.</p>

<p>Here's an example of someone I interviewed (and gave top scores to) who got into my Ivy: a girl who began to love the ocean and sailing and tidal pools as a little girl, and who, as she grew up, found ways to do unique studies of marine biology; learned to sail and was able to CAPTAIN huge boats by her teenage years; became an expert on celestial navigation; worked on an oceanographic research sailing vessel; did an inner-city school internship in which she worked together with the students (NOT as a "superior") to develop videos and other projects on biology for a local marine biology center; etc. etc. etc. </p>

<p>I don't have time to tell you all she did, but she was clearly someone who was captivated by marine biology and with her sailing and navigation skills could become a great field researcher --- plus her volunteer activities tied in, in an integrated way, with her passions for the stars, the oceans, sharing with others, her amazing leadership abilities (believe me, captaining a boat and being responsible for navigation is an amazing hook - she was responsible for other people's lives. They sailed in the dark, entered strange harbors where the navigation had to be perfect, etc).</p>

<p>All this with top grades in AP science and being in the top ten in her school.</p>

<p>Now THAT's a passion - and that's JUST ONE EXAMPLE. You sound like an embittered person who probably hasn't done much, and so you are trying to tear down everyone around you by denigrating ECs into "aluminum foil" collecting.</p>

<p>Maybe you should have spent your time developing something you truly loved....</p>

<p>No, a passion isn't just something you write down! See my reply above. This girl's integrated life was BACKED UP because ALL her recommendations spoke about it; many of her awards and scholarships were based on projects (like the inner city collaboration for the marine bio center) that backed it up; etc.</p>

<p>Mensa,
If all that you have is your high IQ, you are not likely to get into an Ivy. Ivies want students who'll be active on campus and who will go out into society and make some kind of mark. People who just sit around studying and patting themselves on the back for their sky high IQs aren't likely to do much with their lives that add anything to the campus community or to the world off campus.</p>

<p>Such people also won't go far in the world. Even to do well in graduate programs, one needs to have social skills. Acting like, "I am a brilliant genius. You, commoner have an IQ that's lower than mine, so forget you," will not help one establish relationships with professors or peers, both of which are helpful as one makes it through graduate school.</p>

<p>When it comes to getting a job as a professor, researcher, etc., one also has to be able to get along with others, share ideas, work as a team, etc. People who only study and condescend are not desireable in any kind of work situation.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, I note your name. It is not a big deal being in "Mensa" when one applies to top colleges. In fact, my guess is that adcoms would snicker if one put down Mensa membership or listed one's IQ on one's application. First, most people who apply to colleges like Ivies have IQs that qualify them for Mensa. Second, what matters to the adcoms is not how high your IQ is, but what you do with your IQ. </p>

<p>Thus far, you have not posted any indication that you do something remarkable with your intelligence. Simply getting 1600 board scores or 5.0 gpas in tough courses is not an especially remarkable achievement when it comes to the Ivy applicant pool. What's remarkable is when a person can have excellent scores and grades (They don't need to be perfect to be "excellent") while also having some kind of other remarkable achievement, preferably in an area that is rare or highly desired to create a well rounded class.</p>

<p>"Thus far, you have not posted any indication that you do something remarkable with your intelligence."</p>

<p>What do you expect from a high school student? Other than a few child actors, I don't know any that are famous yet. The EC's like "climbed Mount Kilamanjaro" or got some job "curing all diseases" through their parents connections are rich-kid fantasies. Show me a kid who's written something that really means something to other people, and is not just their precious "experience". My hat is off to that person.</p>

<p>The sailor I wrote about provided a tremendous growth/learning experience for those city kids. A girl from my sister's school who got into an Ivy made and patented a medical invention that simplified emergency tracheotomies. There are many, many examples of people who've done more than simply have their parents pay for "rich kid fantasies," buthave truly helped others. As an interviewer I assure you we did not take kids SIMPLY because their parents could afford fancy summer "experiences." It had nothing to do with money (the sailor learned her sailing for free in Sea Scouts, something she sought out herself, NOT from having rich parents. In fact, her parents were middle class landlubbers).</p>

<p>Someone - I think NSM - once wrote very eloquently on WHY this is important. It's that the intiative, intelligence, creativity, interest in community, etc. that the passions STEM FROM mean that the person will be a great addition to the ccollege community. </p>

<p>Besides, once your scores are over 1350 or 1400, there's very little statistical difference among people - except for the truly, profoundly gifted. Colleges know that. That's why top LACS and Ivies go beyond numbers. Pretty much everyone who applies qualifies statistically, said my son's LAC, so we look for more.</p>

<p>Again - you may get in anyway. Happens all the time. But I would hate to have my kid sit next to you. You are presenting yourself as an obnoxious whiner that has no insight whatsoever into what makes someone "smart."</p>

<p>It goes without saying that people who are prodigies and demonstrate the intelligence and academic background to succeed at a place like Harvard will have a big advantage. However, such people are rare, so few people in any Harvard class are like, for instance a Yoyo Ma, who was already a world famous cellist by the time he went to Harvard.</p>

<p>The other type of people who stand out in the admissions pool are those who have pursued their interests above and beyond what is typical, and who have done such things through their own efforts, not as a result of their parents' deep pockets.</p>

<p>Thus, a student who loves the French language, has done so well in h.s. French that they are the only student in the high school who is taking French at a collegiate level would stand out. They would, however, stand out even more if they had, for instance, worked a job in order to fund themselves on a trip to France or Quebec. Another example: If they had spearheaded a schoolwide fundraising campaign to help the hurricane victims in Haiti. </p>

<p>A student who has done exceptionally well in French because they have French speaking parents who took them to France every year and who also sent them to expensive French camps would not stand out in an elite college admissions pool. Their skills would simply be due to good luck, not to their own passion and work ethic.</p>

<p>A student interested becoming a doctor would stand out if, for instance, they had gotten so into the research required for a paper for their chemistry class that they contacted a local college chemistry professor and became that person's longterm mentee. </p>

<p>I know someone who got so into an 8th grade science project that he established a relationship with a local physicist, and that led to the student's getting a lab tech job that started when the student was in 9th grade. The student's research as totally self-driven. He wasn't pushed by scientist parents. He wasn't trying to pad his resume, but was simply pursuring his interests. This is the kind of thing that impresses top colleges.</p>

<p>Frankly, very few people, including very smart people, become so interested in intellectual pursuits that they create opportunities for themselves. People who lack such passions don't understand what drives people to do things that aren't required for class or aren't directly spelled out by colleges as part of their requirements. </p>

<p>Yes, there really are students who write things that mean something to otheres and aren't just their experiences. They are rare, but they exist. It is these kind of rare abilities and achievements -- coupled with strong stats and a strong curriculum - -that lead to acceptance at places like HPYS. </p>

<p>This isn't something that one can fake or manufacture. One is either born like this or one isn't. The people who can understand what I am describing are probably the ones who pursue intellectual passions themselves.</p>

<p>
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Besides, once your scores are over 1350 or 1400, there's very little statistical difference among people - except for the truly, profoundly gifted.

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<p>If you get a 1400 without coaching, the difference between 1600 might not mean something. But if that's the best you can do after prepping, it means a lot. Face it, any judgment you can make as an interviewer, good or bad, is intrisically superficial. Why you inist that is more "statistically significant" than a highly verified standardized test that is fair to everyone is exactly the problem with the admissions process. Interviewing is like reviewing War and Peace by reading the dust jacket. The SAT is put up or shut up. When middle class parent's kids get 1350s, they blame the SAT. Let me tell you, I know great kids with with 1350s, and a few great kids with 1590s. The latter are a lot smarter. Don't kid yourself. I compete with these people every day.</p>

<p>" The SAT is put up or shut up. When middle class parent's kids get 1350s, they blame the SAT. Let me tell you, I know great kids with with 1350s, and a few great kids with 1590s. The latter are a lot smarter."</p>

<p>But once students demonstrate they are smart enough to succeed at the top colleges like HPYS, the colleges aren't selecting students by virtue of who is smarter. How the top colleges narrow the field of the overabundance of highly qualified candidatees that they get is by selecting students who most can contribute to the college's atmosphere by contributing to ECs, dorm conversations, etc. </p>

<p>The top colleges aren't interested in filling their classes with self centered geniuses who think they are too smart to interact with peers or to do service to help the community or who only want to interact with their textbooks. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, there are colleges that use stats as their main way of selecting students. Instead of wasting your time in a futile effort to get HPYS to change their standards, simply go to a place like CalTech, where the selection process favors students like you, and the adcoms think like you do.</p>

<p>Ne, Northstar: </p>

<p>Lets sum it up for mensa as: </p>

<p>intelligence + creativity + initiative = interesting experiences and accomplishments that indicate what you care about, & 'who you are'</p>

<p>I was accepted to an Ivy without any world-beating ECs. I did dabble in a few things too... but looking back I was deep in two areas and had one good area. </p>

<p>(1) Arts: I was extremely active in music & theatre; did all the plays, choruses, musicals, county honor choir, independent productions, revues, etc. Also directed productions. (Clearly I loved it and did well, and I participated in these same activities college, but-- hello-- I was not Broadway material.) </p>

<p>(2) Employment: From age 13, I consistently worked "real" jobs both summers and during school year. In the last one, though pretty menial (mailroom), I had a huge amount of independence, set my own hours, no oversight from "adults" and I stuck to it for three years. Worked about 15 hours a week during school year.</p>

<p>(3) Community service: Worked as volunteer in local children's hospital all day Saturdays for 2 years. Active in Amnesty International.</p>

<p>My teacher recs probably said that I genuinely cared about learning & I participated in class.</p>

<p>Nothing so "impressive" but certainly I came across as a doer and someone who stuck to major involvements over long term. Also I was able to succeed in school while having lots of other demands on my time.</p>

<p>Don't be dissuaded from EC participation because you set your bar at too high a level (world fame!) Just do things that interest you, and keep doing them! Dabbling is okay too, so long as something or other catches fire eventually. If you dabble, it is to find an interest and go for it, not to pad your resume with lots of mini-ECs.</p>

<p>I appreciate the nuanced approach above, SBmom. Frankly, of all the things you did, the mailroom job impresses me the most. I'd take a kid stocking shelves at the supermarket or sorting mail over an Amnesty International type in a second</p>

<p>I don't agree that CalTech is the answer, as northstar seems to say. I'm not a a tekkie. And I think that HYPS are about 90% of where they should be, but drop the ball on the last 10%. Don't take a kid with 1400s over a kid with 1500+, unless there somthing wrong with him her. And I'm not Asian, but face it, that's what this "looking beyond SAT/GPA" is all about -- keeping the Asians out. Which is really unfair.</p>

<p>". I'd take a kid stocking shelves at the supermarket or sorting mail over an Amnesty International type in a second"</p>

<p>Basically, that's also the way places like Ivies operate, too. They take a person with a noncookie cutter activity that depends on the person's work ethic and motivation over a person with a more standard opportunity that was there for the taking. Although the subject was controversal (the black power movement), I also brought it up at my interviews. I figured that if Harvard would reject me based on my interests, I didn't need to go to Harvard.</p>

<p>Incidentally, among things that I did in h.s. were working cleaning a woman's house, work after school as a store cashier, and I also pursued music activities intensely including playing in a local college's orchestra and in several of my high school groups, and serving as an officer in countywide select music association. When I did the senior year research paper that my school required, I went way beyond what was required, even managing to travel several hours away to see a speech by a major figure in the subject that I was researching.</p>

<p>I didn't have 1600 scores or perfect grades (though my grades, curricula and stats were high enough to succeed at Harvard), but I did certainly demonstrate intellectual passion. I also had not pursued activities to pad my resume to try to get into Harvard nor did my research or music skill approximate a prodigy's. My choice of research topic, ECs, job all were out of my own quirky interests, and I had taken advantage of the opportunities that were available in my small community.</p>

<p>As an added note, there can be a "downside" to EC/passions as well. My child is nationally ranked in a non-NCAA and somewhat obscure sport. She could represent the USA in international competitions next year, if she continues to train. There is a CC "top 25" LAC in our hometown which would be the "logical" choice from my daughter's perspective. She could get a great education and could her EC. (No similar opportunities in the towns where her other college choices are located.) Yet the LAC where she would love to go views my daughter's "passion" as detrimental. There is no college team or student club on campus and the skill level involved precludes starting one. The college is "concerned" about her focus being on something that is not school-centric. Since her EC/passion is documented on her application -- as well as her desire to represent her country as a member of the National Team -- she probably will be turned down by this LAC. Incidentally, she has great grades, test scores, recs, etc. </p>

<p>To be a "hook," your activity needs to be unique and you need to be exceptional in it. Yet excelling in something that is unique can backfire, if that's your only reason for selecting an EC.</p>

<p>boxmaker1917,
Harvard doesn't interest your D? It has more NCAA teams than does any other college, so I imagine she could pursue her sport there, and her passion would be viewed as a plus. Since she has the stats to consider a top LAC, I assume she also would have the stats for Harvard . The minimum for Harvard is about a 1200 SAT, 3.0 gpa plus a college prep curriculum.</p>

<p>From Harvard's web site"
"The position given athletics within the University framework is both idealistic and realistic. Harvard is a member of the Ivy League--with Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Pennsylvania, Princeton, and Yale. Under the League's founding document, the Presidens' Agreement of 1954, there are no athletic scholarships. Financial aid to students is based solely on need.</p>

<p>This structure has allowed for Harvard teams to compete successfully within the League and on a national level as well. The men's ice hockey team won the NCAA Division One Championship in 1988-89, and the women's lacrosse team captured the NCAA title in 1990. In recent years, the men's lacrosse team, men's and women's tennis teams, field hockey team, men's and women's fencing teams, and men's and women's soccer teams have all qualified for the NCAA playoffs.</p>

<p>The motto "Athletics for All" is also a reality at Harvard. With the introduction of women's golf in 1992, the University sponsors 41 varsity teams, the most of any NCAA school. Knowing this, one shouldn't be surprised that Harvard introduced intercollegiate athletics to the country nearly 150 years ago. The Harvard-Yale crew race, held on August 3, 1852 on Lake Winnepesaukee, was the first college sporting event in America."</p>