I know very little, perhaps close to nothing, about law school applications. My D has applied and is waiting. Graduated last year from an Ivy (3.7 gpa), took the Feb LSAT and got a 165 after fairly focused prep. Currently working at a smallish (100 people) law firm and learning a lot. Good, probably great “softs” - essays, other experience, and recommendations.
She’s applied to BC, BU, Georgetown, and a few more in that territory. She’s really late in the cycle, which concerns me. Does she have a good shot? Nuclear option is to take LSAT again in the summer and apply to T14s if her score is closer to 170. She’d rather not do this…would be happy with one of the schools in Boston and not looking for “big law” or a super fast paced NYC environment. Happy to stay in the Boston area. Firm she works for now is a nice situation and they’ve already offered her a spot upon LS graduation. Any advice or comments?
If she retakes, she’ll have to wait another year, and I think she would only do that if she’s not accepted anywhere she’s already applied. She’s happy to attend any of them. Even if she decided otherwise, would she have to reapply or defer for a year? Of course, merit aid is always nice, but it isn’t the first priority…she has enough left in her UTMA/529s to pay for law school. Merit aid alone would not be enough of a reason to wait a year.
All of her full, timed practice tests (around 20) were 167-173, with most at 169-170. Oddly, her lowest section on the Feb test was critical reading, which is normally her best area. She said the reading passage was very arcane (astronomy or something) and she didn’t follow it well. That said, the next test could have another section that she doesn’t hit just right. She definitely has test anxiety, and she does not think that she can do much better. She’s always been very self-aware, so she’s probably right. Also, I don’t think that she has low expectations, but rather realistic expectations of how she wants to live. She’s a hard worker, but not hard driving, if that makes sense.
Sorry, but does not compute (and is illogical for someone with Ivy SAT/ACT scores).
But to answer your question: yes, a late app is at a disadvantage. OTOH, her numbers are in the top quartile of BC/BU which would otherwise indicate a high chance of acceptance.
But just understand that only ~60% of BC/BU grads are employed 9 months after graduation in a job requiring a JD. In other words, 40% are under/unemployed.
A 170+ score would put her LSATs in the median 50% at Harvard Law. Even if she doesn’t want to run the world, she would be better off as a HLS alumna than from any other school she’s applying to.
Question: she’s applying late in the cycle. Re-taking the LSAT isn’t something you seem thrilled about, nor does waiting in the cycle. What on earth is the rush?
Also, your daughter has two ways to get over her test anxiety: now, or when she’s in law school and her entire grade relies on a final.
How is this even a thread? With a 165 the answer is obviously to retake and go for 170, then apply early in the cycle when all the merit cash is sitting around. A year is nothing. A hundred thousand extra in debt, however, is a lot.
This is D’s mom - D doesn’t use CC, although I have for years. I’m simply trying to educate myself so that I can offer a little bit of guidance, or at least be able to fully understand what she tells me. There will be no debt, and we’re in the lucky situation that law school will not impact our finances at all. For any advice, I ask that you please take finances out of the equation.
While I agree that a year is nothing, D is anxious to get going on the next phase. Are BC or BU that poor of a choice? She could spend another few months prepping, and that may be what she ends up doing. But for what? To be accepted to schools that she has no interest in attending? From what I understand five points is a considerable jump. She really prefers to stay in Boston, and will live in the area after LS graduation…so it’s Harvard, BC, or BU. She’s not interested in pursuing Harvard…feels it’s too much of a reach and too high stress…doesn’t want to join in that race.
unless your D is in the ‘trust-fund baby’ category, it’s hard to leave $$ out of the discussion. (If she receives a scholarship for grad school, the 529 money can come out penalty free, so it’s a nice chunk of change that you/she are foregoing.)
She probably has an inflated view of the difference between the quality of students in law schools. Alternatively, she is discounting the pressure at all law schools. (Unless she was a STEM major in undergrad, she has no idea of how a curve works in practice and on the emotional well being of the student.) She applied to GULC…why does she think that would be any less stressful than HLS?
even is she doesn’t want big law, prestige is HUGE in the legal world. I can assure you that even a small, family friendly law firm in BeanTown would love to post a graduate of HLS on their website (vs. BC/BU). Moreover, that degree will be with her for a lifetime.
BC/BU are fine choices at a huge discount. But get past the emotional (“d is anxious to get going…”, “nuclear option”…) and look at the hard, cold facts: 40% of BC/BU grads are unemployed 9 months after graduation. In other words, after three years of LS, and nearly $300k, a job as a barista is looking pretty good.
Sure, a 5 point jump in scores is a lot for the average test taker (~150), but not for an Ivy Leaguer, nearly all of which should be able to clear 170 with rigorous test prep. With proper practice, for example she should be able to consistently miss zero on the logic games. And an Ivy reader should be able to get thru the dense passages.
Don’t settle – retake in October and volunteer doing something useful, such as for a legal clinic…
It sounds as if she has really already decided. Do you know how late someone can defer an acceptance? She could take the LSAT in June and see what score she gets and then decide to defer or reapply. I have some experience with the issue: I am an attorney and worked at BigLaw for many years, plus my son applied to law schools this year and has been accepted at two T-14 schools and several others. We also do not care about finances. I will say that your choice of school to a large extent stays with you for job changes your entire career so it is important. She may do fine career wise if she goes to BC or BU, it is just that her chances might improve if she defers. Every job she gets may affect future jobs she is offered. Of course, if her score does not improve she could be seen as wasting a year, but even one or two points might make a difference. But I cannot say that she will not have any opportunities at BC or BU particularly if she does very well. For others reading this I want to emphasize that it seems important to apply early. We were shocked at how soon most acceptances came without applying early decision (one before Thanksgiving, several before Christmas, others early January). My son’s credentials were not high enough to make him a no brainer for the T-14 schools so that is not the explanation for the early acceptance. My son may have been accepted anyway, but it seems like his chances had to have been better before the class started filling up.
@Gourmetmom: If your daughter wants to avoid stress, she picked the wrong profession. She’s also terribly confused about law schools. The higher level schools are less stressful, not more. This is because jobs are much more certain at the top so there is less need to compete. See, e.g., [number of hours of study per school](TaxProf Blog).
BU employs [url=<a href=“http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/bu/2013/%5D60.8%%5B/url”>http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/bu/2013/]60.8%[/url] of its graduates. BC employs [url=<a href=“http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/bc/2013/%5D63.6%%5B/url”>http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/bc/2013/]63.6%[/url]. That means, going to either, your daughter has a slightly better than even chance of getting to be a lawyer. Note that these are any legal job, not good legal jobs, and certainly not any kind of legal job your daughter envisions. No, BU and BC are not good choices (even if money is not a consideration).
If she wants to go to law school and has to stay in Boston and she refuses to go to Harvard and money is not an option (you know we’re talking about hundreds of thousands, right?) then sure, go to BU/BC. With that many limiting factors BU/BC are the only option. They’re not a particularly good option, but what else is left?
^^^She’s certainly not refusing to go to Harvard - she’s fairly confident that she would not be accepted (will probably not get 170+ on LSAT) and needs to consider other options. You’ve all been very clear and adamant that BC/BU are not worth the time or money…not because the quality of the education, but solely because of poor job prospects upon graduation. Do I have that correct?
IMO, both BC and BU, in that order, are fine if she wants to stay in Massachusetts or go elsewhere and finances are not an issue. The lack of student loans will alleviate a lot of pressure. Both schools are well regarded nationally. So long as she understands that it might take a few years for her to land a legal position she enjoys, the fact is she likely will survive and practice law, even if it’s in a small firm, solo, or government.
@Gourmetmom: The education is probably comparable at the top 50 schools, with the only difference being the quality of your peers. That is because the legal academic market is fairly small and supply fairly high (high pay, low hours, low stress, high prestige). The top 50 schools abound with high end professors from high end schools with high end clerkships. Of course, to the extent a professor teaches 170 LSAT scorers or 150 LSAT scorers, she will probably grade her lessons accordingly, but that shouldn’t impact the education aspect too much.
I’m also not saying BU/BC aren’t worth it. They can be, but only in very particular circumstances. If your daughter doesn’t have to worry about money, needs to stay in Boston, has strong connections for getting a job (or is willing to sacrifice the 3 years and not end up a lawyer), and can’t get into Harvard, then BU/BC are probably fine. If any of those isn’t true, she should study, retake the LSAT, and shoot for a better school.
As per above, there will be less stress in attending Harvard Law, as almost everyone will get a reasonably decent job upon graduation. She will have a lot of doors open to her that are not open to BC and BU alumni, such as clerkships, high-level government jobs, and academia.
Some kids do fine when they go to BC or BU; many others don’t. The Boston legal market is VERY small and VERY overcrowded - in fact, it’s one of the most overcrowded in the nation, based on the number of people passing the bar versus the number of openings for new lawyers.
What a lot of us are trying to say is that the short-term considerations of not wanting to re-take the LSAT, not wanting to wait another year, etc., pale in comparison to the potential benefits of having a shot at going to one of the best law schools in the nation and the best law school in her desired geographic area. Her options are also a lot more, well, option-y right now than they will be if she ends up at BC or BU and, three years from now, doesn’t have permanent employment lined up.
I raised mine 13 points. I’m sure OP’s daughter can manage 5. Even if she can’t applying next year would still be to her advantage due to being able to get early in the cycle and applying with a smaller applicant pool.