<p>I have a daughter who wants to be a nurse. As far as I can see it, she can either apply as a transfer student to a nursing school after completing her prerequisites or start at a college as a freshmen, hoping to get admitted to the college's nursing school. Our state doesn't have any direct entry programs and none of the out of state colleges that do interest her. She is not a big partier type and is a diligent student but would like to enjoy some life at the college outside of academics. It seems the choice is get settled and then transfer, and only be at the first college a year or two (she is getting most of her pre-reqs done as dual credit) or go to a college with a nursing program and possibly have to change schools. Am I missing something here? She would like to earn a BSRN. If she transfers and enters that college as a nursing student, it seems that nursing school is so rigorous that not much time for a social life is left. And not having been there before the rigorous course load hit, she would not have made those connections that might be helpful to have in place as a junior and senior. Would someone help me make some sense of this?</p>
<p>Sounds like you have it figured out! D went through the same analysis. The BSN choices are a direct entry program, a 2+2 program, or alternative tracks such as RN to BSN or earning a degree before applying to a nursing program.</p>
<p>Direct entry programs obviously vary a lot. There are programs that start off with nursing classes right away, and programs that have more college prereqs for the first year or two so that students get to experience general college life before getting into the nursing program more intensely. The nursing students do have a little time for a social life (D goes to events, an occasional party, sports events, etc.) but they really become very dedicated to their studies. D eventually found that she had to drop her social sorority because of time constraints. There were just too many sorority events that conflicted with nursing school obligations, and D wanted to continue to do very well academically. Another trade-off for that BSN. She does have some friends in nursing who are willing to trade off grades to continue experiencing college life … nursing schools are small enough that everyone including the professors know who those kids are :-). By senior year, she is doing so many clinical hours that she is very seldom on-campus anyway. </p>
<p>Even if a nursing kid is planning on applying to a program for upper level classes in a 2+2 program or as a transfer student, prospective nursing students are a studious bunch. Those applications in sophomore year are intense and competitive, which means that students planning on trying to transfer or apply to the nursing program are committed to their studies, continuing volunteering and otherwise working towards their next application. </p>
<p>Nursing requires a lot of tradeoffs. D didn’t choose the university that she really wanted to attend because it was a 2+2 program. She also wanted to avoid possible transfer applications to improve her chances of getting into nursing somewhere. Ultimately, getting into nursing was her #1 priority, which dictated her choice of a direct entry school even though it wasn’t her ideal university. Aside from the relief of knowing that she was definitely getting into her desired program, D thought having some nursing classes in years 0-2 was better since that could mean the work in years 2-4 could be less intense or offer more clinical experiences. D still mentions going to her #1 choice of university for graduate work someday, and is somewhat wistful about the tradeoffs that she felt she had to make for nursing. </p>
<p>Everyone will have a different experience though. For some students, the 2+2 schools turn out to be ideal. It could be argued that nursing doesn’t mean that students give up having college experiences or social lives any more than other majors, especially in the first year or two of any program. The engineering kids are in labs, business majors are doing internships, student teachers are off-campus and working on lesson plans, premed kids are working in research labs and building their resumes, etc. Every major will have its own requirements. As each student advances in their program, their programs tend to become more rigorous so that time for a social life decreases anyway.</p>
<p>I remember thinking the exact same thing as your post when D was applying!</p>
<p>Personally, I’d much rather be at the same college for 4 years. It would be hard to make a new set of friends after 2 years - particularly if other students have already established their group of friends at that second college. </p>
<p>I’d look at some more out of state options. Remember that if you are eligible for need or merit aid, some private colleges can end up being cheaper than some flagship in-state universities.</p>
<p>In a 4 year BSN program, you need to keep your grades up for the first few semesters to stay in the program, but you don’t need to maintain the type of superhuman GPA that you might need for a transfer into a highly competitive 2-2 program. </p>
<p>The first few semesters are a standard science-oriented curriculum. Therefore, it is easier to do college activities. However, once clinicals start, your scheduling becomes more complex, particularly if there are long travel times to your clinical locations. (That is a matter to consider). </p>
<p>My daughter is playing a varsity sport as a freshman, but realizes she probably won’t be able to keep doing it all 4 years. The games are mainly scheduled Friday evenings and Saturdays.</p>
<p>
I would recommend that your daughter reconsider her decision not to attend an out of state direct entry program. As mentioned above, the transfer into a 4 year BSN program is usually VERY competitive. While one of these OOS colleges may not be her “dream” school, they may be her best choice to attain her desired career. </p>
<p>Good Luck!</p>
<p>I would highly recommend that students applying for Nursing to non-direct (2+2) entry Nursing Programs obtain information from the college about the average percentage of students admitted as pre-nursing majors that are subsequently accepted into the Nursing Program in the third year. I would be very leery of Programs that would not provide you with this information (there is no reason why they should not have it). Once you are aware of this percentage, feel it is at an acceptable risk level (personally I would like to see a minimum percentage of 75%), and feel confident in your abilities to handle the work load, then I would see no reason not to attend the Program. Of course you will still have the onus of the subsequent application to the Nursing Program hanging over your head. There are a number of very good 2+2 entry Nursing Programs out there.</p>
<p>Nursing Programs have been progressively modifying their curriculums over the last 10 years in order to address the evolving role of the Nurse in providing clinical care. IMHO one significant advantage of direct entry Programs is that most of them begin to provide some level of Nursing Education in the freshman year. This makes the transition to subsequent clinical courses easier by providing didactic/simulation education in basic nursing principles/practices which can then be applied and expanded upon once a student begins their more advanced clinical courses. IMHO, from an educational perspective, this is a better way of doing things rather than trying to do both initially at the same time.</p>
<p>Nursing students do not necessarily need to end up as social outcasts if they enter college with a well formulated study plan and stick to it. Obviously studying needs to be prioritized but IMHO students also need some time to relax and recreate or they will put themselves at risk for “burn out”. You will probably find that most of the students who do well in their Nursing courses are students who have been able to formulate a balance of both of these things, although it will need to be skewed more to the studying side. But you have to have a well organized plan. Good luck.</p>
<p><a href=“personally%20I%20would%20like%20to%20see%20a%20minimum%20percentage%20of%2075%”>quote</a>
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Does anyone know of any specific examples of a BSN program that has a pre-nursing track and takes 75% of their own pre-nursing majors? This type of information would (IMHO) be very helpful for other students/parents that are considering this route.</p>
<p>My daughter was able to have a very enjoyable college experience in her 4 year program. She was rather jealous of her friends who had such little class time compared to her class/clinical/work hours but she still had time to be in a sorority, have a boyfriend and hang out with her great group of 10 non-nursing girlfriends - plus graduate with a hospital job. As MWmd said above - it requires a good sense of balance which she has always had.</p>
<p>In addition, it may make sense to select a college that does not have highly selective admissions and a highly competitive student body. Nursing will be a difficult major at any college. However, at a highly competitive college, you will need to strain to keep up in your non-nursing classes. At a less competitive college, your non-nursing classes will be less competitive, which will free up more time for your nursing work.</p>
<p>For example, my son attends a university where half of the students in the math and science classes are trying to get into med school. The students are highly competitive, and everyone is desperate to get an A. In comparison, my daughter attends a less selective college. Her freshman math class is not difficult, which frees up her time to concentrate on her challenging chemistry class and lab.</p>
<p>Society tells students they should attend the most prestigious and selective college where they can be admitted, regardless of the cost and other factors. However, with nursing, a less competitive college may be more suitable. In addition, remember that the nursing graduate from the $15,000 a year college will probably have the same starting salary as the nursing graduate from the college with the $43,000 a year tuition.</p>
<p>IMO, very good advice Charlieschim. My D intentionally chose a school where her stats were at the upper end, instead of going to a school where she would have been average or on the low end. She wanted to feel that she had the chance of getting top grades, to help her with grad school admissions if she chose to continue her education. If she was at the upper end of her graduating class, she also thought she would have a better chance of job placement. It’s worked out for her. It’s my guess that if she had gone to a sink or swim program with an extremely competitive class and course of study, she 'd be a C or B student instead of an A student. </p>
<p>On the other hand, those programs put their students through the grinder for a reason. Students learn a lot of information that is likely to be important as nursing becomes more and more complex, have research opportunities, and may have “in’s” for special clinical experiences or grad school opportunities – for the students who get through their programs successfully.</p>
<p>I think it depends lot on whether a kid would thrive in that setting or not, and what a student actually wants to do with a BSN. D wants to be a hospital nurse, and will be very happy in a ward with geriatric or cardiac patients. That’s it. Not nursing anaesthetist. nurse practitioner, nursing professor or pediatric nurse like 80% of the nursing students she’s met LOL. She just wants to do hands-on patient care, and has been happily worked as an aide getting her hands (and seemingly every other part of her…yuck) dirty while going through her BSN program. Since it doesn’t matter to a hospital nursing union whether a nurse graduates from School X or School Y – they’re both going to get the same salary – she felt her choice of school was better for her than a grinder program. Getting more grants and scholarships that dropped the cost of her degree because her credentials were at the high end for her school didn’t hurt either. </p>
<p>D had siblings who sweated out prereq classes that were graded on curves, where students in their majors were competing against others in tough tracks. Imagine a required math class for nurses with engineers and accountants, or a bio class where nursing students have to compete on a curve with intense premed and prepharm students. When D was looking for schools, she weighed whether nursing students were mingled with the general population for some of these classes, or if a nursing school offered its own classes limited to nursing students and material directed to the nursing major.</p>
<p>There are so many things to consider, but we really did find that the programs sorted themselves out fairly quickly. The school that D chose wasn’t in her top choices at all when she started the application process, to my surprise. </p>
<p>Admittedly, she’s starting to panic in Senior year. I see on the nursing student forums on other sites that this isn’t unusual for Seniors, and that the majority of them worry about whether they will be able to handle life & death situations when actually on their own. If they got cardiac, ob-gyn, pediatric and ICU clinicals, they panic about not having any experience with oncology…there’s always something that they feel they haven’t covered enough. There are NCLEX and nursing books all over my house everywhere I turn, not to mention flashcards and other materials. She’s planning on filling Christmas break with extra clinical experiences, and is totally immersed in nursing right now. Wish she would clean the cat litter…</p>
<p>Just to add, the scholarships and grants brought the cost of D’s private school below the cost of our state university. We were also unlucky enough to be in the middle of a family member’s medical crisis when D was applying to colleges, and were having a lot of contact at the time with hospitals, doctors and nurses. We were able to poll many medical practitioners about the reputations of nursing school graduates in the area, which helped D to choose School A over Schools B, C, D etc. </p>
<p>Going back to OP and based on D’s college application process, all I can say is to encourage your D to have an open mind about those 0-4 programs if she is truly committed to this major. She has months to make a decision and to learn more, and things may look differently in February and March than they do now.</p>
<p>Yes, that is critical, Neonzeus - if you are at the top 15% of the applicant pool of a private college, you are likely to receive offers of 50% off the tuition. For this aid, you are compared against the entire applicant pool, not the nursing applicants.</p>
<p>That type of aid will help minimize debt, which will free up debt capacity for future graduate courses.</p>
<p>Also, the nursing programs at many public universities often have more competitive admissions that the nursing programs at less famous private colleges. The higher sticker prices scare off many applicants. However, if the private college ends up costing the same as the public university because of aid, you also get the benefit of typically smaller class sizes. My daughter’s less famous college prides itself on having almost no classes with more than 30 students. Meanwhile, my son’s more selective university had some science classes with 600 students in a lecture hall.</p>
<p>Neonzeus and charlieschm make some very good points. In her BSN program our D did take biology with pre-med majors and calculus with math/engineering majors and did find it very challenging as a result. While not trying to get into a debate about whether this was really necessary or not (due to her being a Nursing major) I do believe these experiences were helpful to her subsequently in preparing to take her nursing courses from a “mind set” perspective. She entered her BSN Program with a career goal of becoming a Nurse Practitioner along with subsequent involvement in Nursing Education and Research. The Nursing Discipline is dramatically evolving in an effort to establish itself as a distinct Healthcare Discipline separate from its historical connection to the Medical Discipline. While I believe most people would not have a problem with this I feel it does place Nursing Education in BSN Programs in somewhat of a dilemma. How do you put together a Nursing curriculum that will prepare students with different career interests (many with long term career interests in functioning as RNs along with meeting the educational needs of an increasing number of students with an interest in becoming APNs and/or entering Academic Nursing/Research)? IMHO in this latter group of students is where your “more intensive” (for lack of a better way of describing it) Nursing Programs come into play to a greater degree.</p>
<p>I generally recommend to students considering Nursing that they take their future career interests into consideration when they are trying to decide which Nursing Program to attend. If your interests are in moving up a Nursing career ladder relatively soon after getting your BSN in the area of becoming an APN or entering Academic Nursing (we need more of these individuals desperately) then where you go for your BSN can have some bearing. With the dramatic increase in the interest in APN Programs the competition for these slots, especially at your more highly ranked programs, has been significantly increasing with many of your higher ranked programs having acceptances rates of 20% or below. Obviously undergrad GPA is the most important factor but where a student has obtained their BSN is also becoming an increasingly important factor. Nursing Grad Programs, similar to BSN programs, are looking for students whom they feel are best prepared to handle the rigor of their increasingly intense Programs, with the rigor of a students undergrad program being at least one additional measure of this. As a result of this IMHO sometimes the possible added cost of attending of attending a “more intensive” BSN Program can be justified. </p>
<p>I would hope no one would misinterpret what I am trying to say here. I am not saying that more intensive Nursing BSN Programs are better than less intensive Programs. What I am trying to convey is that in IMHO these programs serve slightly different purposes (with certainly some degree of crossover existing between them). What I am trying to suggest is that BSN Program applicants, based upon their career interests, might want to keep these things in mind when considering which Program to attend. Focusing on just attending the most prestigious program (vanity aside) may not be in a students best interests from a number of perspectives (noted very well in previous posts).</p>
<p><a href=“personally%20I%20would%20like%20to%20see%20a%20minimum%20percentage%20of%2075%”>quote=Mwallenmd</a>
[/quote]
Do you know of any BSN programs that have a pre-nursing track and takes 75% of their own pre-nursing majors? I would personally like to see a minimum percentage of 100%, but I am not aware of any programs that come close to either of our percentages. Once again, this type of information would (IMHO) be very helpful for other students/parents that are considering this route.</p>
<p>Back in 2006 when a our D was applying to Nursing Programs a 75% number was given to her by La Salle and Univ. of Tampa. I have no idea whether this number still applies.</p>
<p>Thanks Mwallenmd! Links for those looking for BSN programs that take at least 75% of their own pre-nursing majors:</p>
<p>[The</a> University of Tampa - Nursing Degrees - Four-Year BSN](<a href=“http://www.ut.edu/nursing/fouryearbsn/]The”>Four-Year BSN | University of Tampa)
“Admission is very competitive. Students are encouraged to apply early.”</p>
<p>[La</a> Salle University : School of Nursing and Health Sciences](<a href=“http://www.lasalle.edu/schools/snhs/content.php?section=admission_requirements]La”>http://www.lasalle.edu/schools/snhs/content.php?section=admission_requirements)
"Before beginning nursing major courses which are concentrated in the junior and senior years the student must have earned at least 60 required La Salle University credits in the liberal arts and sciences and have a minimum cumulative G.P.A. of 3.0 and science G.P.A. of 3.0 (Anatomy and Physiology I & II, Microbiology, and Chemistry). Students must earn a grade of C or better in developmental psychology and nutrition prior to admission.</p>
<p>After having met the above criteria, the Undergraduate admissions and Academic Standards Committee will review each students academic file for admission to the nursing major. Students may repeat 1 science course 1 time only to earn the science GPA of 3.0."</p>
<p>Mwallend - I agree with your analysis completely! You definitely describe the dilemma well. Nursing applicants not only have to figure out where they can be accepted, but right out of high school they also have to consider the program’s potential fit against future career aspirations. Some applicants, like your D who knew that she was going to be pursuing advanced work and my D who has a different career goal, can weigh programs against those long-term goals. For others, it’s another worrying factor to consider. </p>
<p>I’m so glad that I’m nearing the end of this process. Just talked to my kids who will be graduating in May, and no one is planning on applying to other schools for anything else this year (although my PharmD kid is weighing med school after working for a year). It will feel very strange to have launched them all. I’ll have to finally wean myself off CC and switch to the retirement planning sites.</p>
<p>Wow, such awesome advice! OP, you really did get the gist of the nursing school experience. it’s a bucketload of work. At my employer, the nursing students club puts up bulletin boards that make a lot of jokes about not having any time for a regular college life. My own d is here, third year. Dual credits gave her enough breathing room in her schedule to include a minor, but the schedule is packed. And in the spring semester (which includes a whole lot of bad weather up here) a number of clinicals are going to be 70-90 miles away. So, drive time + all day clinical + drive time. Ugh. She gave up her varsity sport after sophomore year, no time. And she had to add a job at the hospital for health care experience. Don’t let anybody tell you it’s not that bad. It is. </p>
<p>My employer’s program is not a direct entry program, but usually has room for all the nursing interest students who hit the GPA requirement. I, too, would look for a school your d can be at all four years.</p>
<p>And to top it off, some programs require more than 120 credits. My daughter has to attend a month-long course one summer, and take 17 credits some semesters. Other nursing students at her college are in a “track” that is scheduled to need 4.5 years to graduate, even though they take a full course load each semester.</p>
<p>It is easier to complete a program in 4 years without too much stress if you have some AP credits. </p>
<p>That is one more reason to consider colleges that are not ultra-competitive. The less competitive colleges are typically more generous in granting AP credits than the ultra-competitive colleges. It may be a huge difference. Average colleges accept a 3 for credit, while ultra-competitive colleges require a 4 or a 5. Some ultra-competitive colleges also set strict maximums on the total number of AP credits you can earn. If you have taken any dual enrollment classes inside your high school, the more competitive universities often will not accept the credit.</p>
<p>One last point. Many nursing programs recommend that students not have outside jobs during the school year, esp. while clinicals are underway. Also, many students need to maintain cars to get to and from clinicals. In cities, the mass transit cost can also add up. </p>
<p>Therefore, it is particularly important that nursing students don’t stretch themselves too greatly financially with a high net tuition college – so they can avoid having to work during the school year and so they can afford transportation. </p>
<p>Also, keep in mind that 529 accounts cannot be used for travel expenses.</p>