<p>"That something is a priority does not mean someone has to be willing to go into debt to do it. I guess that's my bottom line. When parents ask themselves "How do I say no to Princeton", the expection seems to be that a good parent cannot say "no" unless they would wind up homeless. That's just too high of a bar in my opinion."</p>
<p>Amen, sister/brother, amen.</p>
<p>Pug--</p>
<p>You are changing your argument and making one heck of a lot of unfair assumptions. </p>
<p>I am not independently wealthy. Neither were my parents, who made the same choice I did. Neither are most of the parent posters in this thread. Soozie's posts help establish that. We did take financial issues into account. We just give them a different priority than you do. We do think it's worth going into some debt. You don't--that's just fine with us. All we ask is that you and taxguy spare the lectures about how our kids didn't get any better education that they would have gotten at our local public U. and we are suffering from delusions if we disagree. </p>
<p>We are not asking that you and taxguy share our values. We just resent the fact that you insist that we are being mislead--that there's this great conspiracy whereby top colleges have conned people into thinking you can get a better education at HYPS than at the local public U.and that, even after our kids have finished college and we KNOW what that experience was like, that we are simply wrong when we think it was worth it. </p>
<p>We do take the personality of kids into account--I think that in particular is ABUNDANTLY clear from this thread. What we take issue with is how you measure the value of an education. This is what you wrote: </p>
<p>
[quote]
I think it's important to counteract the messege that these schools, even the Ivy League, are tickets to success. They are not. They are tools that can be used. One still leaves with only an undergrad degree. What that degree is in and the earning potential of it are not fundamentally changed because of the name of the school on it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You can SAY you "value education," but to me that post says that you value it solely as vocational training. To you, the Ivies are a fraud because they aren't "tickets to success." I do not measure the quality of the education at a college by the amount of $ its graduates earn. That's what I object to. If my daughter were to decide a few years from now to be a stay at home mom--which is EXTREMELY unlikely--I'd be really, really upset about it, but I would NOT think that paying the money for her to go to a top college was a "waste." For me, it's not about the "earnings potential"....and that's not because I'm wealthy. It's because I don't view the primary aim of a college education as enhancing the student's earning potential.</p>
<p>I AGREE that you do have to consider future earning potential when you decide how much debt a kid should take on and, yes, it's possible to take on too much debt. But how much to sacrifice and whether to take on ANY debt and how much are personal decisions. No, you're not a bad parent if you won't take on debt. Heck, I don't think you're a bad parent if you refuse to pay for college at all. But, yes, I DO think that parents who are willing to pay for their kids' college educations and to eat gruel if necessary to do it, DO value education more than you and taxguy do. And, frankly, the more you and taxguy write, the more convinced I am that I'm right. So, as you write about all the other things that you would give your son before giving him a US college education, you just convince me that you and I value very different things. </p>
<p>To me, in deciding which experiences I would most like my offspring to have, there is no question whatsoever that the ONLY one I am willing to sacrifice A LOT for is the experience of sending them to a college where I think--and now know--that they will have experiences that they could not get elsewhere and which they can NOT ever have again. Would it be better if I saved the money and gave the kids a downpayment for a house as taxguy suggests? NO. I'd never buy any kid of mine a car either. And the fact that my kids know that is one way in which I have tried to inculcate my values in them. </p>
<p>The truth is that most of the people who insist that HYPS and other top colleges are overrated are people who couldn't get in and have kids who couldn't get in either. Even among the people who do choose the merit money, a lot really don't do it for financial reasons. They do it because they think they will be "top of the heap" at public U and aren't sure where they will be at HYPS. They may think that they will have better options for med,law, and grad school if they are top of the heap at state U than they will if they are middle of the class at HYPS. They may be afraid of becoming too different than their friends. They may think that everyone at HYPS is a snob and that they'll never fit in wearing clothes from Target. They may want to be able to see their girl- or boyfriend on weekends. Whatever. </p>
<p>It's their choice to make. It's our choice to make too. But before you criticize us, have your son apply to HYPS. If he gets in, look at the financial aid package he's offered. I guarantee you it won't create any risk that you'll be homeless. It might, though, ask him to go into debt. At that point, you and he can make the decision, and come here and lecture the rest of us. Until then, please knock it off. </p>
<p>Oh, and I don't judge the quality of a college by USNews rankings either. There are top-ranked colleges I personally think are VERY overrated. That's another one of your phony-baloney assumptions.</p>
<p>Oh, finally, please spare me the diversity nonsense. If your kid needs to go to college to meet people who are non-white or non-middle class, and you think the BEST route to get him to do that is to have him go to a community college, feel free. I LIVE in a neighborhood that is a little less than half white and has Section 8 (low income housing as well as some fabulously wealthy residents. Our elementary and high school were NYC public magnets--they were diverse too. So, I didn't need to send my kids to college to get to know people from other backgrounds. I don't see that as the purpose of an education either. </p>
<p>Moreover, while HYPS may not be as diverse as state U, I think that you'll find that at least some of them, kids from different backgrounds actually spend more time outside the classroom doing things together than is the case at many public Us. </p>
<p>Rant over.</p>
<p>Interest analysis from all!</p>
<p>drizzit--great to have a real-world comparison of varying school scenarios. That makes me feel better if son does (& there's a good chance he will) end up going to a large, in-state school w/a strong program in his major. So great to get info before these decisions are imminent.</p>
<p>Again, I agree with much of what jonri just posted. Pug, your argument is based a lot on issues of "success" after college and "earnings potential" and ya see, I never viewed the college choice in those terms. I do believe you can be successful coming out of ANY college. And I don't see certain colleges as giving one the potential to earn more money than another college. Nope. Those considerations never entered my mind. I have faith that my kids will be a success in their fields because of their determination and drive and so they could have gone to any college because the person determines their own success. But not just any college would have given them the same experience in terms of the four years and in terms of the education itself which has a value to us, and not in terms of earning potential, but simpy in terms of the educational experience itself. Also, one of my kids is going into theater and performing arts....not exactly a stable field that earns a lot of money! But we feel her education was very worth it for its own sake. My other kid is going into architecture which is not necessarily a high paying field given her degree takes 7 1/2 years to earn. But no matter. They will be educated and are having some fabulous experiences and we care about that....not about an education being a ticket to a job or success. We do believe that education is important when it comes to success but that you can be educated anywhere. After all, my own kids went all through public school and at rural schools that some of you might have said were not "good enough." But they have succeeded coming out of these rural public schools. But for college, they are in the right place for them and that place has value to us beyond potential earnings and success. We feel that their education and the experiences they are making at their schools will lead them to the next step of their lives really well. </p>
<p>It does get tiresome having to justify going to so called "top schools". Ya know, these schools and the experiences at them are very positive for some kids. I don't doubt great experiences and good fits are possible for other kids at other schools. Also, some of these private schools give good financial aid and frankly, we are real happy with that....it costs less for them to attend these "elite" colleges than many of the schools you might consider as more reasonably priced.</p>
<p>Jonri, well put.</p>
<p>I have no intention of giving my kid a down payment on a house, have not bought them or subsidized cars, heck, we didn't even own a VCR when they were growing up. I don't tell people that I know who do these nice and generous things for their kids that they're gullible or have been duped by the educational establishment or are crazy or whatever. I saved aggressively for my kids education and have never questioned why other people don't- none of my business. </p>
<p>I am grateful that being frugal by nature and having had the luck of being healthy and earning a good living has given me and my kids choices that other people don't have. However- I concede that we make our own luck. I CHOSE not to take lengthy maternity leaves. I CHOSE to stay with a job that required travel- simply put, it was more interesting, paid much more, and offered much better advancement than Mommy-track jobs. I don't criticize those who made other choices- but I do chuckle at my friends who don't understand why part-time yoga instructors and party planners (their choices) make less money than senior execs with global corporations. Duh!</p>
<p>I get testy at the suggestion that those of us who opt for private education do so because we are at the mercy of some giant marketing machine. I also get annoyed at the implication that every other consumer good is worth going into debt for- house, cars, boats, nice kitchens, cruises, even big screen tv. Nobody questions the interest rate on their visa card when they walk out of Best Buy having just purchased the latest and greatest in entertainment technology... but somehow banks are engaged in predatory lending when you borrow money to pay for college. A man who works for me just financed a fancy piece of jewelry for his fiance. He plans to pay it off $50 a month. I think she'll be dead by the time they own it fair and square.</p>
<p>I would never sacrifice my retirement or raid my 401K to pay for college- any college. The best gift you can give your children is NOT to move in with them when you are elderly and indigent and they are raising their own kids and working full time and paying off their own mortgage.... so as far as I'm concerned, there are ways that other folks pay for college that were simply off the table for me. However, there were many other financing vehicles which did make sense, based on my age, health, professional track record, etc.</p>
<p>Would I have paid for a private college if I didn't have health insurance? Would I have paid for college if I didn't have disability insurance? These are all questions which I didn't have to answer-- fortunately. But it doesn't make me stupid if I evaluated my own earning potential over the next 15 years, assessed my kids educational needs and wants, and made my own best guess as what I could "afford" to pay.</p>
<p>Re #51</p>
<p>I also think the topic is regarding elite colleges, but the definition of elite is up to interpretation. The word to my kids was that the state system would afford them a fine education, and unless the school (private) that they were interested in had something "special" to offer, they could just as well go to the state. This could have been re: programs offered, size, educational philosophy, the pride alums took in their schools, etc, etc, etc. - not just those factors that most think label a school as being elite. They all went private and had/are having experiences I know they couldn't get in the state system.</p>
<p>I also wonder about those folks in affluent neighborhoods, living in McMansions, driving expensive cars and crying about not being able to afford private college. Could the cost of one Mercedes pay for a year of college? And people who are professionals being surprised when their kids turn 17 that they have to pay for college. I can't imagine that they didn't think from day 1 that the child might have college potential.</p>
<p>Soozievt, are you saying in post #58 that you've taken out loans to pay for elite schools for your kids, but you haven't funded your retirement?</p>
<p>
[quote]
The truth is that most of the people who insist that HYPS and other top colleges are overrated are people who couldn't get in and have kids who couldn't get in either...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This, right here, is what I'm talking about. I know a lot of families make this decision for the best of reasons but there are certainly a fair share that do it so that the world will know that their kid could get into HYPS or another elite school. And even believe that other families would jump of the financial cliff if only given a chance. That arguing for fiscal responsibility is really just sour grapes.</p>
<p>My son is a junior. As a sophmore, he scored among the top 50K on the PSAT. His grades are similiarly high. He's already been invited to apply to one of the "elite" schools as a junior and skip his senior year. He is going to apply. And if he gets in, he knows how much financial aid we need. If it's not that amount, he won't go there. And the world will continue to spin, his future as bright as ever. </p>
<p>As much as I value education, I do value other things and am proud that my son is living those values as well, like gratitude for the tremendous gift of being able to attend college at all plus not have to work full time. I'm also proud that he's learned to make the best of where ever we've been stationed, has kept his standards for himself high no matter what is going on around him and, most of all, knows for sure that his parents pride in themselves and in him having nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with going to college, let alone the name of the college.</p>
<p>GotoPractice, yes, this is a true statement, even if it is an unwise choice. Providing a college education is a primary consideration. I was afforded college and grad school from my parents and I passed that onto my kids. As well, their grandparents have assisted in their education. Not everyone would agree with our choice and that's fine with me! My kids worked very hard to achieve what they have and I knew they would make the most of college as well (and they have) and so we supported allowing them to pick any college they wanted. We feel they earned it and appreciate it and we wanted them to go where the school fit them best. As well, they each received FA.</p>
<p>pug, you are assuming that all those who go to very selective colleges are into the "name brand." Some may be, but not all. My kids were not. They never said, 'I want to attend an Ivy League school!" They wanted to attend a "good college" that would challenge them at their level and that was a good fit for what they were looking for. Given the kind of students they are, they landed at very selective schools but it had to do with fit more than the name of the school. In fact, one of my kids knocked an Ivy League school off her list that she was admitted to when she was narrowing down the options in spring of senior year and preferred two non-Ivies over the Ivy. She cared most about fit. And for her and for my other kid, part of the "fit" was the level of challenge and student body. If the schools they attend have a "name", so be it but that was not the motivation to attend. </p>
<p>Good luck to your son. My youngest child also went to college after her junior year of HS.</p>
<p>soozievt, I want to be sure to point out that I said that many familes, I would say most families, make these kinds of decisions based on what they truly believe is best for their child and I do respect that. People who assume that others are just jealous and/or would do the exact same thing if only give the chance are not coming from that angle. </p>
<p>Thank you for the good luck for my son. He is ready, I don't know if I am! I keep telling myself, "It will work out for the best." and trying hard to believe it. </p>
<p>blossom, Just so you don't feel picked on...this country has a problem with debt. And I do not understand why people are willing to carry debt on things like boats or electronics while their emergency or retirement savings are underfunded. </p>
<p>I'm not saying anyone has been fooled. But I am saying that schools sell themselves, especially private schools. And discussions about that pressure. deconstructing the myth of elite universities versus the reality and encouraging parents to take financial care of themselves as well as their children lead to accusations of not valuing education as much as other parents or viewing college as strictly vocational education. There is a tremendous expectation that good parents will sacrafice for their children and, of course, we all do but we draw different conclusions about what that means.</p>
<p>Pug, I would agree with you in theory except that our experience with "elite universities" if you want to call it that has run counter to your claim. As I mentioned before, we live in a consumerist society where some proportion of the population is always happen to assume that something which costs more is inherently more valuable. I don't blame the elite colleges for this view- they hardly created this syndrome. However, there has been much ink spilled on third tier colleges who boosted their admissions numbers by raising their prices- it's not Harvard's fault if some small LAC decides that by charging Harvard's tuition they will boost their reputation "out there".</p>
<p>If you want to deconstruct myths about elite Universities than go ahead- but the notion that people who can't afford or choose not to pay their tuitions are somehow bad parents is hardly their message. And although there are clearly people who are in the "cliff category", i.e. paying top dollar for college would be a ruinous choice for them, most of the elites try very hard to minimize the cliff factor. If your parents are low income with low assets the schools are quite generous. I am more familiar with the cases where the parents are lower income but substantial assets (large inheritance, beneficiaries of a trust, several homes) and in those cases the parents are hugely indignant that the college "expects" them to pay down some of those assets. </p>
<p>Or a neighbor of mine who is middle income on paper; divorced from the rich husband who doesn't want his income or assets "counted" when tallying up the financial aid but perfectly happy to buy the kid a jeep for his 16th birthday and take the kids to Cancun at Xmas. Williams should subsidize his lifestyle??? Using what logic? Dad can't understand why he should pay a dime since the kid can "get a scholarship" based on mom's income.</p>
<p>You and your family will make a wonderful decision I am sure. But many of the people in real life who do the most complaining about that "cliff" live in a world where they keep their mutual funds, the beach house they inherited from grandma, all the toys they've been buying on credit plus the pool they put in last year. YOU should pay every fungible penny in tuition but they shouldn't alter their lifestyles one iota. I've done the math-- and while the elites method of financial aid for sure leaves some folks high and dry (the self-employed, various types of asset valuation, etc.) many of the people griping about the ruinous costs of college are just annoyed that their efforts to shelter their income and hide their assets haven't paid off like they and their unscrupulous advisors had hoped.</p>
<p>And I went into debt for my education and am happy I did. It made many things possible and affirmed my belief that investing in one's own human capital pays lifelong dividends. Your mileage may vary.</p>
<p>"Dad can't understand why he should pay a dime since the kid can "get a scholarship" based on mom's income."</p>
<p>Point well taken - but Dad is in for a surprise - his financial status will be considered in the formula - as well as any stepparent that the child is living with even though the stepparent is not financially responsible for the child nor is the child a dependent of the stepparent.</p>
<p>"for a kid that is just interested in picking up a degree, along with a good deal of partying and fun, might be better served at lower cost at a run of the mill state U."</p>
<ul>
<li>Pretty insulting put down view. D's Honors program at state school reguires to be top 2% and ACT=32. In fact, her Honors dorm is filled with valedictorians, herself and roomate included, mostly from private HS's. Her combined bs/md program accepts only 10 kids into freshman class and required interview at Medical School while still in HS. I hope that these kids never had a chance to see comments like this one. They work very hard, classes are extremely challenging. They participate and have huge opportunities in all aspects like research, leadership, volunteering, study abroad.... D's state college has campus in Europe.<br></li>
</ul>
<p>If somebody wants to pay huge tuitions, why not? However, it should not make them think that everybody else is inferior in their academic status or decisions in regard to college of choice. D was actually accepted to Private school with huge Merit scholarship, that lowered her tuition to $5000 / year from $33,000 / year. She has chosen to attend state school because she felt that state school opened more opportunities for her. She is a sophmore now and has no regrets about her choice.</p>
<p>^^ Obviously the program your daughter is in is not "a run of the mill state u". It sounds like a great opportunity and an excellent program. The military academies are also incredible programs, but they are certainly not for everyone and it is extremely difficult to gain admittance. I think most of us posting on this thread are allowing for a variety of "right fits".</p>
<p>I doubt that any one could count how many different ways CC has had to discuss this exact same topic. Each family has their own values and their own believes. This is not a black and white issue.</p>
<p>For us, at least, it is fairly easy. Pick from those we could afford, the lower the cost, the better. We are very fortunate that the lowest cost school for DD is one of the best in the world. We really like that outcome so we are doing everything we could to make it happen again for DS. Knock on the wood.</p>
<p>BTW, I strongly agree that going to a top private school is all about a life time learning experiences, not about earning potential.</p>
<p>I also think mixed up in these discussions is that the most selective schools equates with "more expensive" and for us, while both our kids attended two of the most expensive schools in the country, their overall ticket price was quite a bit lower due to financial aid and scholarships and so there is more to it than the simple black and white that some make it out to be.</p>
<p>MiamiDAP, </p>
<p>since it is my comment you are trashing, perhaps you can explain what is insulting about it? Is your kid just interested in partying and picking up a degree along the way? Then the shoe fits, I am afraid. But I think it does not, for the reasons you state, although in fairness, program selectivity and past high accomplishments do not guarantee future motivation.</p>
<p>I find it sad when posters like you take every criticism about a state university as a personal insult. If you truly think there are no slackers at your kid's state U, no kids there who would just as soon party as study, then we have a disagreement. Otherwise, your post puzzles me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
pug, you are assuming that all those who go to very selective colleges are into the "name brand." Some may be, but not all. My kids were not. They never said, 'I want to attend an Ivy League school!"
[/quote]
Some folks protesteth too much that only others seek prestige (but not the poster of this, I am sure.). </p>
<p>I do think that some of the hostility to private higher ed stems from the fact that the reasons families choose such a thing does vary. For every family seeking excellence that I've known, I've known at least one that could not imagine a non-ivy education, and not for quality reasons.</p>
<p>I am not trashing your comment. I cannot tell was it your intention or not, but your comment definately trashing everybody who decided to attend State U and it is insulting. I have met highly motivated, highest caliber students at state schools all over our state, most of whom qualified to apply to Ivy's and such. I bet you, there are a lot of "kid just interested in partying and picking up a degree along the way" at Ivy's and everywhere else. I am not sure what was intention of your comment, but I am sure how my D or any of her friends would feel about it.</p>
<p>Newmassdad....I am not sure I understand what you wrote as it is unclear to me. But I can honestly say that my older D who ended up at an Ivy, could not relate WHATSOEVER with the posts on CC (we found CC when she started her junior year of HS) where kids were posting about wanting an Ivy League school or bust type of posts. Her goal for college was not "Ivy." She wanted a challenging school and had a list of criteria she was seeking such as "architecture major in a liberal arts setting", "ski team", "not an isolated campus," and so on and so forth. Granted four Ivies made it onto her final list of schools but she did not prefer those Ivies over other schools necessarily. For example, she preferred Tufts and Smith over Penn (got into all three and eliminated Penn). So, she did want a challenging selective type academic setting but "Ivy" was never the goal, and for that matter, she has never seen the college rankings which are discussed on CC quite a bit by certain types of students. So, she did want a selective setting given the kind of student she is and where she felt she'd fit and be with other highly motivated types, but the name of the school was not the deciding factor. I would say that prestige was not her goal but she did have a goal of going to a "good" school that was challenging, given the kind of student she was and she had worked hard to try to go to a challenging college some day. She came out of a rural public school and was not sent away to prep boarding school as some in our area do, and did just fine in such a setting but wanted something diffrerent for college. She also wanted to go away to school and be in a location that contrasted to her rural upbringing and that was a selection criteria. In fact, both of my kids will tell you that had they not grown up in VT, they happen to think that UVM would be a great place to go to college. Both sought more urban settings for college to contrast with where they had spent their entire lives prior to college. And so my point is that not everyone who attends an "elite" college is simply seeking the name or in the case of an Ivy, didn't necessarily care about "Ivy". I believe there are plenty of people who DO care a LOT about that as I read many posts of that type on CC.....even some have member names tied to Ivy hopes. That type of thinking was not what my D had at the time. Also, she went to a non competitive HS where people did not really talk about their college lists and in fact, where she was the only graduate of her class to even attend an Ivy league school. She never discussed this stuff with other kids until April of senior year when people asked where everyone was headed the next year, unlike the high school atmospheres that some CCers have where they live where college stuff is the topic that is paramount at school and in the community. Not so where we live.</p>