How could I turn down Princeton?

Parents Forum
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<p>"Geesh. Surely the poster of this is kidding. No? I guess that poster thinks he is smarter than the hosts of researchers who have found that peer factors do matter, and that some kids do better when they are surrounded by, gasp, only by similarly smart people or even smarter people."</p>

<p>Newmassdad, I actually do think I'm smarter than many of the researchers. Sorry. :)</p>

<p>", and that some kids do better when they are surrounded by, gasp, only by similarly smart people or even smarter people."</p>

<p>There are some really smart people at state schools too.</p>

<p>I'm trying to understand this because I'm not too bright. :)</p>

<p>If I go to a state school, I am going to surround myself with people that aren't as smart as I am?</p>

<p>And If I go to a good private school, I will surround myself with people as smart or smarter than I am (and this is not true at a state school)?</p>

<p>The state school students aren't as smart as I am, therefore, I am going to receive an inferior education at a state school?</p>

<p>So I go to a great private school. Now there are students smarter than me. Do I hurt the smarter students' education?</p>

<p>This last question (Do I hurt the smarter students' education?) is really what I'm addressing.</p>

<p>There are enough smart students at state schools and enough opportunites at some state schools for almost anybody.</p>

<p>Now, some people may prefer private schools because of their size, intimacy, whatever...but to say it's because of the intelligence of the student body.....</p>

<p>Some of the state schools have more smart students than private schools. It's college. You get to pick and choose your courses and who you hang around with. Choose difficult courses. Choose graduate level courses as an 18 year-old. Hang around the smart kids.
It's not that difficult.</p>

<p>And no, I didn't talk about motivation. ;)</p>

<p>"The good thing is that we parents and our kids have choices. It would be sad if those of us who valued intellectual capital were forced to send our kids to schools with kids whose parents don't value it."</p>

<p>You have a smiley face after this so I take it you understand that the above statement is silly.</p>

<p>One person drives a $50,000 car and another drives a $30,000 car. The person who drives a $50,000 car likes driving more?</p>

<p>Let me think.</p>

<p>When I drove my $40,000 car, I cared more about driving than when I drove my $20,000 car?</p>

<p>If you prefer the $40,000 car, fine.</p>

122

<p>dstark, </p>

<p>There are smart kids at ALL colleges. That is for certain. I think some of us are talking about a certain stmosphere and I think that atmosphere differs from campus to campus even though there are subsets within any campus community. </p>

<p>My kids have not attended the State U for me to make a first hand comparison. However, I think I can do so a little. For one thing, many of their HS peers are at the state U. For another thing, I have personally taught at FIVE colleges in my state and I know what the students are like as a whole (but there are exceptions in every crowd to be sure). And I can reasonably state that as a WHOLE, the student body is quite different at our local state schools compared to the students my kids are coming in contact with at their colleges and grad schools (Brown, NYU/Tisch, and MIT). My kids could get a fine education at the state colleges, for sure. But it would be a DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE and part of this is the atmosphere and the types of students who attend as a WHOLE. (again, there is overlap) I also have a niece who just graduated from Penn State. She is bright. Her level of achievement and involvement and drive/motivation is not on par with the experiences my kids are having nor their peers at their respective colleges. Simply how they spend their time is VERY different. My kids have virtually no free time out of choice due both to the rigor of their schools but also due to drive/motivation to be heavily involved outside the classroom requirements. They go well beyond what is required to get the degree. I can say that is typical of the peers at their schools but not so of a great many at these other schools their local friends attend. They seek out extra things to take on....often in leadership capacities that have them in school to the wee hours of the morning and all weekend as well (my kids' schedules boggle my mind). Their summers are spent furthering their careers. NONE of this is true of my niece who went to a fine state U or most of my kids' local peers either. There are exceptions of course! But at their colleges, my kids are TYPICAL. And they thrive in such an atmosphere where others are doing some amazing things outside the classroom day. I am in awe of their peers. They are doing some great things. Some are already making it in their field. My D at Tisch has peers making it on Broadway and the like. My D who went to Brown has peers doing incredible experiences nothing like my kids' local friends who went to state colleges. So, the atmosphere at school is quite different. A great education can be had at any of these schools but the experiences and student body as a whole differ. </p>

<p>This is not a far fetched concept. For instance, take our pubic high school. Again, my kids got a good enough education there. But the kids in their Honors classes were NOTHING like the kids in the easy tracked classes who were not college bound or at most heading to Lyndon State or Castleton State. Their work ethic was different. They did not go the extra mile. Their involvement in extracurriculars was often nil and then kids in the most demanding classes were in umpteen ECs every afternoon, evening and weekend with little time to party and so forth. Just as my kids would have not been happy in the non-Honors classes at our high school, I don't think our state U's would have been the best fit either for them.</p>

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<p>It depends on the state schools. The UCs are better state schools than some private colleges.</p>

124

<p>
[quote]
"She would have been miserable at State U. No question about it."
I guess I still don't get it. She visited and has many friends but never WENT TO SCHOOL there. Was there an honors college option? Is it really that BAD?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Toneranger, our state university, which is the University of Maryland at College Park, is not bad at all, and it does have an honors program, to which my daughter would undoubtedly have been admitted. </p>

<p>But students in the honors program take only a small proportion of their classes with other honors students, and none of those classes are upperclass courses in their majors. The rest of the time, honors program students are mixed in with the general population, most of which consists of people who are much less academic than my daughter.</p>

<p>My daughter does not like being in classes where most of the students are substantially less academically oriented than she is. In fact, way back when she was in eighth grade, she applied for, was admitted to, and chose to attend a selective high school magnet program in part to avoid being in classes with students who don't care about academics. Her father and I did not pressure her into doing this. It was her choice, and it turned out to be a good one. She fit in very well in that program and had four good years there. Given this background, I don't think that UMCP, good as it is, would have been the ideal university for her. And while she has not gone to school at UMCP, I think that she knows more about that university than the average person does because of her many ties there. (In general, kids tend to be pretty well informed about the colleges attended by their older siblings.)</p>

<p>Certainly, if financial limitations had been an issue, UMCP would have been an attractive choice. But as it happens, money was not an issue. Moreover, the choice was not between one of the best state universities in the country and a private university that arguably could be considered inferior to it (e.g., UVA vs. GW or Berkeley vs. Boston U). It was between a lesser state university and Cornell, which ranks way above UMCP on every ranking list ever published. For this particular student, with her particular academic preferences and family financial situation, Cornell was the better fit.</p>

<p>And incidentally, my daughter has nothing against state universities, provided that they are top-notch academically. She applied to several of them as an out-of-state applicant but withdrew those applications after being admitted to Cornell ED. UVA was her second choice school.</p>

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<p>"Do I hurt the smarter students' education?"</p>

<p>Sigh.</p>

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<p>I need to proofread my posts more closely. My kids did not attend a "pubic" high school, LOL. Yikes. :D</p>

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<p>Marian notes,"But students in the honors program take only a small proportion of their classes with other honors students, and none of those classes are upperclass courses in their majors. The rest of the time, honors program students are mixed in with the general population, most of which consists of people who are much less academic than my daughter."</p>

<p>Response: I always get into trouble generalizing and so do others. You assume that the "non- honors" kids are somehow inferior to the honors kids intellecturally. Yes, overall, they (the honors kids) might have had higher SATs, but the non-honors kids usually had very good GPAs in high school at Maryland ,where I live.</p>

<p>I actually taught at Maryland.I can attest that many of the non- honors kids are every bit as good if not better than that of the honors kids, regadless of SATs.</p>

<p>I know of several kids who weren't in honors at all due to their SATs and graduated in the top 5% of the school. One girl I know personally dated a guy who was in the highest level of honors at Maryland He did well ( about a 3.5 GPA at Maryland). She, on the otherhand, graduated in the top 2-3 students! I have seen this time and again. </p>

<p>The second kid that I know personally was also not in honors yet, he is one of the brightest kids that I have met. My son feels that he is the sharpest among all of his friends including those that got into Carnegie Mellon, Cornell etc.
Trust me: there are PLENTY of smart, capable kids at University of Maryland who aren't in the honors program!</p>

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<p>Dad II
"The Harrison scholarship looks very attractive , it is one of the few full rides that seems to purely based on stats - 2% and 34 ACT. Also, is anyone who meets the 3% and 32 ACT automatically gets in honor?"</p>

<p>It changes slightly from year to year. D. did not get Harrison. In 2006, it was 43 spots for Harrison. She applied, but did not get it. Application to Harrison was a reguirement for her bs/md program. She got into this one. Also, Harrison applicants are automatically considered for Honors. In 2006, it was 200 spots in Honors, she got in. The requirement was top 2% and ACT=32. In 2007, it was 300 spots in Honors, I do not know requirements for 2007.
The school is also phenomenal in regard to Merit scholarships. D's tuition is covered completely. She also got additional $4000 for sophmore year after she applied for returning students scholarships. She continues to be very happy. And campus is soo pretty, she just loves it. Looking forward to go on educational trip to New Zealand after 2nd semester.<br>
Top 3% and ACT=32 sounds right, but you might need to apply. I would just apply to Harrison, it should cover everything.</p>

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<p>Marian writes: "Cornell, which ranks way above UMCP on every ranking list ever published." </p>

<p>That's absolutely untrue! Which is not to say that Cornell isn't a fine institution but our s didn't even consider Cornell due to its geographic undesirability.</p>

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<p>


My comparison is between Ivy level and CSU. I did not say that my daughter had smaller classes -- my son's CSU didn't even have rooms large enough to accommodate some of my daughter's larger classes. Anyone who think that an Ivy is the place to go for "small" classes is misinformed; if a student wants "small" classes then the answer is to simply go to a "small" college, at any level of selectivity or prestige. </p>

<p>As to level of challenge: sorry, I'd like to be able to say that there was some equivalent at the "honors" level but its not true -- I also have my own experience at an undergrad at a UC plus my somewhat elite law school experience to fall back on.... and the bottom line is that that, as far as I can tell, Ivy-caliber schools are in the business of preparing future academicians -- they want a level and style of writing and analysis that I sometimes find pompous and obtuse. I'm not saying it is "better" -- in some ways it may be worse because it tends toward the theoretical rather than practical. But I have attended classes at my daughter's school, I've seen some of her assignments..... and it is daunting. I am sure that my daughter is having a very different academic experience than she would have if she had opted for a UC campus. </p>

<p>That is not saying that I would have had any qualms at all if she had opted for the UC. I once had a friend who owned a Maserati and sometimes he would take me for a spin. I would never have wanted to pay what he did for his car nor to deal with the headache and expense of owning one. But it was definitely a very nice car, in an an altogether different league than my Honda Civic. Then again, not really suited to my budget or driving habits.</p>

<p>


First of all, to be clear my son has graduated -- I am very glad of that because he and I both think that budget cuts have taken a devastating toll on his school. Whatever it did offer, it now offers less, unfortunately. </p>

<p>I am talking about cost-benefit analysis. My son and daughter have similar majors so they used to talk to each other about the substance of some of their courses. My son was envious of my daughter's college; my daughter was envious of my son's lack of debt. Despite my son's envy, he sometimes expressed frustration at his college when the focus of courses was too theoretical -- he wanted real-world, practical applications -- he got what he wanted through internships, and what was available to him as a CSU student was as good or better than what would have been available anywhere else. My d. had an absolutely amazing internship this past summer, too -- but she got it on her own, her school had nothing to do with it, except for the intangible value being able to list a prestigious school on her resume.</p>

<p>I'm getting my money's worth for my d. to attend her elite college... but it is tight and I am glad that I am not paying full cost. I would not be able nor would I want to pay $50K a year for that education. If I were wealthy enough to simply write a check without impacting my lifestyle -- maybe. But as it is, I am taking on significant debt and I consider it to be a personal sacrifice to send my d. there. I love her enough to do this willingly and graciously, but I do feel personally conflicted -- and that feeling is mitigated only because my daughter happens to be doing so smashingly well. That she could go to her reach school and take on challenging academics and somehow also end up on top is the icing on the cake that makes it all worth it. But I couldn't have planned it that way, and I don't know how I would feel if the situation were different. </p>

<p>In contrast, my son got MORE than his money's worth, given the fact that merit aid plus a Pell Grant pretty much took care of his senior year. And yes, my son is "less educated" than my daughter will be; and of course he is NOT "less intelligent". Obviously, intelligence is innate whereas education is acquired. I'm not saying that it matters in the long run -- but it is still part of the equation.</p>

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<p>Actually, the majority of my D's classes at Brown and the majority of my D's classes at NYU were/are small. For that matter, same with grad school at MIT (all small). None of them are small schools, however.</p>

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<p>I've always found the key to fit comes from walking around a campus, looking at the posters, reading the newspaper, hanging out in a dining hall during a meal. At the risk of sounding elitist, I do find a difference in tone, and in the way the kids carry themselves at different "level" schools. To me it comes down to where your child feels he or she will "fit" - and a crucial part of that decision should be which environment he or she WOULD LIKE to become a part of. Judging by most of my peers (mid to late 50s folks) that environment and lifestyle they were immersed in during their college years usually lasts a lifetime. Then you (and your child) have to decide if it's worth it.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
.... and the bottom line is that that, as far as I can tell, Ivy-caliber schools are in the business of preparing future academicians -- they want a level and style of writing and analysis that I sometimes find pompous and obtuse. I'm not saying it is "better"

[/quote]
I went into Havard thinking I might major in history. After taking a history course where the "A" papers were put on reserve at the libary so us poor peons could see what we needed to do, I realized I didn't want to write an "A" paper. It was the impetus for finding a more real life major where people actually enjoyed my more straightforward style of writing - and in addition - I had tiny classes and professors who knew me by name in every class I took. I could have had a miserable experience (for me) at Harvard, but I ended up with a pretty good one. But there's no question in my mind it isn't for everyone.</p>

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<p>Soozie, the majority of my classes at UC were small, too. Partly its a matter of area of study and course selection, but the fact is that my daughter has taken many larger classes with enrollment up to about 300... my son has never sat in a classroom with that many students. The largest lecture hall at his public college could accommodate maybe 100 students; more typically a "big" class might have 50. When he was at a LAC classes tended to have between 8-15 students -- my daughter has had classes that small at her college too, and I did as well, but they certainly were not all that way. I see no correlation at all between prestige level and class size, and quite frankly I don't see the difference of being in a lecture hall with 90 students and one with 500 -- either way there's not much opportunity for discussion. To me there the divisions are between seminar size (up to about 15 students) -- classroom size (up to about 45) -- and lecture hall size. Once the course has move to the lecture hall, the kid who wants "small" simply needs to arrive early and sit near the front, and the experience will be the same no matter how many other students are sitting behind. </p>

<p>My point is that "class size" does not equate with "elite" or "Ivy". I know that many kids opt for the state colleges or community colleges precisely because they can expect smaller classes and more personal attention at that level than they can at most of the UC campuses.</p>

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<p>Mathmom, I think you've hit the nail on the head. My daughter got a C on a midterm in a psych course her first semester, was disappointed, and following my advice went to see what an "A" essay would look like. She figured it out, and on the next exam had a perfect score on her essay. She gets A's and moans to me about A-'s. She's got a 3.9+ GPA. She is not really a future academician, but she is willing and motivated to do whatever is expected of her -- she is a perfectionist and has high standards for herself. Maybe she got that ability from all those years of ballet training -- definitely an art form for young people who are willing to put themselves through a lot of pain or effort to meet external, somewhat arbitrary standards.</p>

<p>The fact that there is an exacting standard does not mean it is "better" or that parents should feel obligated to subsidize the experience for their kids. It's just a very nice opportunity for a small percentage of students who both want the experience and are able and willing to take full advantage what is available to them. It is probably fairly easy to pull a B or a C in classes where my daughter is busting her butt for an A, and the B students may very well be getting an equivalent or lesser experience than the students who are earning A at state universities -- it has to do a lot with what the student puts in. </p>

<p>At the same time, any student who is ready to put in the effort that my daughter expends at her school is likely going to do well in any environment. My daughter has a high GPA but is not a particularly outstanding or noticeable student in her environment, simply because she is one high achiever in a sea of high achievers -- at another school, it is possible that she would win greater recognition and some special opportunities for her effort -- which is exactly what happened to my son at his CSU. He just had to put in a little more effort into finding and creating his opportunities (including petitioning to allow substitution of higher level courses for some of the rudimentary requirements of his major).</p>

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<p>marian - I guess I just don't agree that there's a huge gulf in quality between a school like UMD and Cornell. Certainly not to the point that a student would be "miserable" at UMD while happy at Cornell.
Our flagship is PSU - I'd say pretty comparable to UMD. The honors college is probably more selective, and based on your note, PSU has more honors offerings (honors option in upper level courses are common). Also, in general upper level courses are relatively small and challenging - especially in science, business and engineering.
In any case, we know many students who have made the PSU with or w/o honors choice over Cornell. Granted, these are usually decisions that are driven by economics, but we don't see "miserable" students walking around. Especially in disciplines like Engineering and Business.<br>
Bottom line, I have NO PROBLEM with kids and parents who make the choice of Cornell over a place like PSU or UMD. Better status. Perhaps an upgrade in the overal "quality" of students. But I know Cornell well (have family members who have gone there) and I think it's an overstatment to say that a kid who goes there would be "miserable" at a state U like UMD. Is that what she tells her UMD friends when she comes home? Must go over really well....
And while we're at it, I don't see UVA being SOOO much better than either UMD or PSU. Maybe if you pay attention to those flawed rankings, perhaps. But really, not a huge difference in quality. (now = prestige-that's a different matter all together).</p>

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<p>Calmom, actually, I have not heard it given as a reason to select an "elite" school that you would have smaller classes. I'm not saying those things go hand in hand. I'm simply saying that in both of my kids' experiences at either an Ivy or a very large university, both have had the MAJORITY of their classes (maybe all but two or so in four years) be small. Many classes have fifteen kids, sometimes 20. They know all their faculty very very very well and they all know them. My older one also had a one on one independent study course. So, I'm just saying it is possible to go to a larger or very selective school and be primarily in small classes most of the four years. That is also the situation my D has in grad school. Her classes range from 8 to 24. I think my other D's classes range from 15 to not much higher. </p>

<p>They also forge relationships outside of class in the ECs. For instance, at the moment, younger D is rehearsing a show that the cast will create. The cast has 10 people in it though a huge number auditioned. The director is a Tony nominated playwright/director who has a show about to come to Broadway. On the first day of rehearsal, he walked in the door and knew all ten kids' names, having recalled each one of them from the auditions two months prior among the huge number that tried out. D also has worked one on one with another Tony nominated playwright/director a great deal both in and outside of the classroom. Many more examples abound. So, the idea that a very large university or a very selective one means impersonal is not always true. Many faculty, including some renowned ones, know my kids very well. My kids have barely been to large lectures.</p>

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<p>The botton line, it has to be a fit. D's state school opened up opportunities for her that she definately would not have at elite school, where she would be just a face in a crowd. And she positioned herself to be surrounded by Ivy's caliber students at the same intellectual level as herself (mainly valedictorians from private schools). Others may have different experience. As long as the kids are happy we all should feel happy with our/their decision.</p>

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<p>MiamiDAP< I agree with what you wrote in post #138.</p>

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<p>toneranger, I think it's time for me to bow out of this discussion. </p>

<p>I don't think that I need to defend the decision of one of my kids to attend our state university or the decision of the other not to attend it. Nor do I need to defend the views of each of my kids that he or she would have been unhappy at the college attended by the other. Each family, and each student, is different, and they have to make their own decisions.</p>

<p>I hope this thread has provided you with some insights into your family's decision.</p>