Ivies are a fit for kids that are (also) looking for employment in finance and consulting. That’s the fit narrative for that cohort of schools. In a small package, unlike UMich. In a bigger package unlike the LACs. Not sure why some people are allergic to requests for ivys. When people say ivy, they also mean other schools of that type — eg Duke, Tufts, NW etc. if you notice a lot of those people don’t mean MIT. Some do, but not many. People know where they are going. Or the optionality they seek. A lot of people on this board don’t seem to allow for kids’ requirements for optionality. Ivys (and others of that kind) give a ton of optionality. A ton more than the likes of UMich. People make rational decisions. It is fashionable to think of other people as poorly informed :-). You have no idea how much optionality you have at a top school (with a good gpa) very late into the four year program.
I think that’s fair but I also often see people with school lists entirely composed using the T20 generic ranking for something very specific like Mechanical Engineering. Meanwhile, they ignore a top notch school like Purdue or assume UIUC ME is an easy admit etc.
Because the kid is not set on mechanical engg. It is a place holder. At Purdue you are set on mechanical engg. End of story. Nothing wrong with mech — I am a mechie myself. You need to go to grad school to change direction later if you step into, and therefore out of, a university like Purdue with a mech degree. Usually.
Of course it is stupid to assume that uiuc mech is an easy admit.
But let me also say that if you can get into (say) Yale Mech, you can likely walk into Purdue or uiuc mech.
We don’t know that, may be in some cases but equally possible they have no concept of fit other than what’s in the Top 20. Heck, many of these kids likely wont be able to afford an Ivy, and for that matter - many of the UCB EECS kids from OOS likely cannot afford that either. The point is that while the Ivys provide flexibility not everyone who starts with the Ivys is doing so because of the flexibility. Poor research and inability to evaluate fit by the applicant is not the same as choosing a school because it offers optionality although the latter helps with the former.
I think it is hubris to assume that someone spending 85k/yr is stupid, and we are smarter than them.
Incidentally if you want to get into some fancy areas like policy etc — ie the true prestige jobs, it is even more useful to go to a prestigious place.
No, I am saying a bunch of people fixate on the Ivys without honestly evaluating the impact of an 85k/yr spend. Primarily because they are not on the hook for it.
The parent is on the hook. As a family they are making seriously considered decisions.
Stupid, ill informed and uninformed are different.
I don’t assume anyone is stupid.
However, people often misinterpret data and numbers and it’s a public service to put those numbers into context.
I hear it frequently in real life: I want to go to Villanova because they place so well into investment banking.
This is only kinda/sorta true.
Guess what- nobody “places” anymore. It is a competitive selection process, and for every kid at Villanova (and a bunch of other colleges, I’m not picking on them) who does manage to end up in I-banking, there are a bunch of his or her classmates who are in the training program at an insurance company, or working in middle market lending at a regional bank. A fine outcome btw- a nice place to launch a finance career. But if you think Villanova dumps you into the lobby of Goldman Sachs and says “thanks for being such a great student”, no- that won’t happen.
So I don’t think people are stupid. But my own parents (not stupid by any means) knew NOTHING about how the corporate world operates, and if I- as an 18 year old had told them “I have to go to XYZ college because that’s the only way to get a job in consulting” they might have believed me.
Doesn’t make them stupid. But if everyone you know IRL is an academic, librarian, doctor or owns a small business, the notion that there’s an easy onramp to a career your kid claims they want- sounds plausible, right?
And my comments about Villanova hold whether it’s Harvard or BC or any of the other “feeder” colleges into high status careers.
Do you want a feeder into MBB consulting? Win a Rhodes. That’s the feeder.
For everyone else- you still have to make it past a resume drop, screen, first round, etc. and you honestly cannot imagine how talented some of the other applicants are.
But if you win a Rhodes, I can’t guarantee you which one will make you an offer, but you WILL get an offer to join once you finish up in the UK at one of McKinsey, Bain or BCG.
Its TBD if those parents are actually making “seriously considered” decisions or are they functioning on autopilot once they locked on to the prestige aspect. One thing I know is that adults for their own reasons (perhaps some unrequited aspiration or an itch that needs scratching or peer pressure etc) make these kinds of decisions and push their kids down these paths rather than objectively deciding what’s in the best interest for their kid.
A lot of people trying to give advice here also don’t know how the corporate world works. Or they presume to know what opportunities exist at places they have never been to. There is vast amount of ignorance available at all levels.
At least the person spending the 85k has skin in the game, and Johnny gets into Harvard because he told his parent that that’s the only way to get into Goldman, then no harm no foul.
People giving advice have no skin in the game, but yet have deep convictions as to what is good for someone else.
It is one thing to say “you probably won’t get into uiuc mech” and another thing to say “ you don’t need to go to Harvard for this or that — these droids are not what you are looking for “ . The second statement requires a level of hubris.
I cannot disagree!
But heck, I get called an elitist- a lot- by folks on CC, and then get called out when I advise a particular kid that Baruch (not elite by any measure- except for academic rigor for the students who want it and seek it) is a MUCH better path than NYU Arts and Sciences and praying you can transfer into Stern sophomore year.
I hold by that advice btw, even though hiring targets have changed dramatically in the last year…
Great question! For our family, “fit” equals the following:
- Financial fit - is it affordable without us having to take out a bunch of $$ in parent loans?
- Admissions fit - What are the odds of our kid getting admitted? They could get an acceptance letter, but if it’s not a financial fit, then it’s not on the list.
- Academics fit - does the college offer the major(s) that she’s interested in? Is there a pre-major required? What are the major requirements at each school for the majors being considered?
- Access to professors - are most of the classes taught by grad students? Are you going to be in classes full of 500+ other people? Will you have to duke it out with other students to get the research experience you want for grad school?
- Academic vibe - are students really intense at the school? Stressed out all the time from the pressure of having to be #1? Or is it a collaborative learning environment?
- Campus vibe - is it a safe campus? Do students seem happy there or do they all stick to their iPhones at mealtime, never talking to each other, morosely trudging from class to class like they’re on a death march? Is there fun stuff to do on weekends or does everybody “go back home” every weekend?
- Greek life - this is part of campus vibe really. Does Greek life dominate all social activities on campus or is it like “you ca participate if you want to but if you don’t, you won’t be a social leper.
- Distance - within a day’s drive or one plane ride is ideal. 2 plane rides ok for the right program.
- Outcomes - how good is the school at helping students get internships and research experience? Is there active mentoring by the faculty or is it a “sink or swim”/ figure it out on your own sort of culture? Also, for D24, what % of the pre-health students get admitted to health professions grad schools within a year of graduation?
For us, prestige is not a factor at all.
Del
The biggest part of “fit” for us is whether the kid feels like they can fit in and feel comfortable in the surroundings (both the physical and social environment). And fit is even more important at a smaller school than at a large one, because, at least in terms of the social environment, there are a lot more options to find a good social milieu.
“I know it when I see it”.
We went through all of the criteria mentioned to develop a list of schools. When we visited them, the best fit was clear.
Extracurriculars actually drove a lot of the fit for my kids. Both were heavily involved and wanted to continue in college so while their list started with academic fit - do they have major? Flexible curriculum? Research opportunites? The ultimate decision on choice was very much decided based on extracurricular fit.
I put schools into categories for fit.
Size
Cost
Location
Majors w/expected outcomes
What size do you want? 1,000-2000 total enrollment where everyone knows everyone. 4,000-9000 more people but not big. 10,000-18,000 mid-size, 24,000+ huge and taking buses on campus to get around.
Cost - Can we afford it without loans? If you are taking loans is this a good investment?
Location - Kid specific. If you grew up in AZ do you want to go to school in Vermont? Also are the people in the location your type of people
Majors - do they have your major and what do those people do after school.
I am a believer that most schools are all just the same. And if you get enough 18-22 years in a location you will find people you like to hang out with.
I am rather practical about such things. We knew how much we would contribute and we were adamant about that. They could apply anywhere but if after scholarships etc. and our contributions it wasn’t affordable it wasn’t an option. We would make suggestions for our kids but were involved mainly in helping out with information and making sure they were able to visit the schools they were interested in. For them any school had to have the program they were interested in and had to be large enough to have good options if they changed their minds. Distance from home was a thing for both of them. They called it their donut not too close but within a certain hours drive. Aesthetics played a role (probably bigger than they were will to admit). Size wasn’t really mentioned too much except that neither wanted an LAC. Selectivity was moderately important to one and irrelevant to the other. Our youngest went to her safety which was the only one she wanted to apply to. For my oldest, who wanted to be an engineer, having a strong coop option was paramount. She chose not to tour Vanderbilt after the information session since they discouraged coops. Said it was a deal breaker. In the end it worked out well for both. They have both launched and graduated without debt. Both are employed and doing well. We are decidedly college educated middle class so they will both do as well if not better than we are.
I think best fit will be different for everyone. For us he wanted school with a veterinary school, land grant college, D1 football, well-respected in his major, good pre-health advisors, not west coast, affordable, good scholarships, not outrageous COL, felt comfortable, good faculty/student relations, nice town - not too urban, not too spread out, allowed cars for freshmen, good study abroad opportunities, plus for early admit or polo team.
Don’t think too many student’s best fit would match this. He judged schools based on this and it worked out great!