Thanks. He’s following his passions and doing well at them. He still has time to make changes, but I do hate to see him make changes based on second guessing what colleges want rather than based on what he wants and loves.
A lot of colleges consider 3 years of social science enough. It’s just from what I see, he only has 2.5 unless the “civics” course is considered a full year course.
I’m going to disagree a bit with @JHS . I think it’s fine if your S wants to “do his own thing,” IF he knows the possible consequences. If he is aware of the high school course work recommendations for the colleges of interest to him and THEN decides to do band and science research, then let him. What you don’t want to have happen is the S does his “own thing” and then gets told senior year that (1) his high school won’t certify him as having the most rigorous course work possible and/or (2) a college admissions officer tells him that his app is weak because of his course selection.
If he knows the risk and decides to run it–fine.
I’m pushing back, @jonri . What do you mean “IF he knows the possible consequences”?
The most sophisticated 15-year-old alive probably knows that systematically taking the “wrong” courses may make you a less competitive applicant for Harvard. And she may even vaguely have a sense of what “less competitive applicant” means at a college where maybe only a few hundred kids in the world are clear admits on academic grounds. But she likely has a completely imprecise and misleading idea of the difference between Harvard and wherever else may accept her if she takes some curricular risks, nor will she understand how, if she’s really a competitive applicant for Harvard, not taking the same lockstep AP courses as everyone else probably helps rather than hurts her. And she absolutely has no clue – because it’s impossible for anyone to have a clue – what getting into Harvard or not will really mean for her life. And the OP’s kid is a boy, which almost by definition means that there’s quite some distance between him and the most sophisticated 15-year-old alive.
And guess what? He’s overwhelmingly not likely to get into Harvard, whether or not he takes that extra science course or the foreign language AP.
So exactly what “possible consequences” is a 9th grader supposed to know?
I do not, of course, mean to say that everyone should let their 9th graders do whatever pops into their not-very-mature minds. All I am saying is no one should be making decisions based on what will help them get into the most hyperselective colleges. They should be making decisions based on what will give them the education they want this year.
@JHS The OP never mentioned Harvard. Nor did I. So, don’t throw up a straw man and argue it. OP did mention some specific schools, including your kids’ alma mater. UChicago’s suggested minimums include three years of social studies and it looks like this kid may not meet that. And, my impression is that it isn’t just the “tippy top” schools that are going to look askance at a transcript with 2 years of FL and 2.5 of social studies, one semester of which was taken on line during the summer. (That same transcript is going to show that 4 of his 6 courses junior year were math & science courses.)In fact, I think some colleges a tier or two down are just as likely, if not more likely, to throw an application that fails to meet high school curriculum requirements into the reject pile.
Indeed, there was a thread not too long ago from a parent with a kid who wanted to be a theatre tech major at a SUNY who was shell shocked when she found out her kid was ineligible because he hadn’t taken the minimum number of high school math courses the major required. Yep, he made "decisions based on what " would “give” him “the education” he “wanted” this year and found out that was a mistake.
So, I am NOT suggesting that a kid should make decisions based on “what will help them get into the most hyperselective colleges.” I am suggesting that a kid ought to take into account that taking no social studies or foreign language courses his junior and senior years of high school may make it extremely unlikely he can go to some colleges. And some schools are going to question taking 3 out of 6 courses junior year in the sciences.
He could, BTW, probably get away with it at Harvey Mudd. https://www.hmc.edu/admission/apply/first-year-students/eligibilty/
So, I think the young man should know that following his plan may limit his options.
OK, you’re right. No one should fail to take the minimum courses required for admission to the applicable in-state publics unless they are very, very certain what they want and very, very certain they can achieve it.
The best colleges give lists of recommended high school prep classes. These are recommended but not required. Having been involved with admissions and higher education for 20 years, I counseled my son that the colleges would not focus so much on what wasn’t taken, rather they’d focus on what was taken instead. So, for example, if you didn’t take more advanced Spanish but instead used the time for another intensive and perhaps less common scholarly pursuit, it would not reflect badly. But if you didn’t take the more advanced Spanish and didn’t replace it with something equally or more rigorous, it would send a bad signal.
And definitely, definitely counsel your son to choose activities because he loves them or might love them, not simply because they further the goal of getting into a more competitive college.
In post 10, I put links for the HS required courses for the colleges the OP DID mention. I then mentioned the FL recommendations and requirements… but all the others are there too…on those links.
OP, consider taking 1-2 classes during HS summer school if your DS is going to be lacking required classes. My DD likes the ability to focus on one class during the summer. She is taking Physics this summer in order to have room in her schedule for cheer and theater next year.
Right now your kid is not competitive for many top schools which will be looking for 4 years of English, at least 2 years of Social Studies, 4 years of Math, at least three years of Science, at least 3 years of Foreign Language and at least one art/music/drama type course.
The number of APs he needs to take to be competitive will be judged in the context of his high school. Our high school offered 22 AP courses, but I don’t think anyone took more than 8 of them. They also offered at least one post-AP math course. Posters here say colleges prefer the APs that are more traditional (Bio, Physics C, Chemistry, Calc BC, English Lit or Lang, any of the languages over stuff like Psych, Env. Sciece, Human Geography.) I’ve never actually hear an admissions officer say it. They do say, you don’t need to take every AP offered. It’s not a matter of whoever takes the most APs wins.
What’s more important for the colleges you mentioned is evidence of intellectual vitality, a willingness to go beyond the curriculum. This can come out in teacher’s recommendation, in activities (like science research), in outside recommendations, in essays. My younger son, who is a real history buff, wrote an optional essay for one college that was a fictional history of the United States if the Battle of Lexington had been lost. He did a lot of work finding bits of Ben Franklin’s diary, asking for a German headline he could include etc.
He’s got two choices. He can beef up his coursework, or he can look at slightly less selective colleges. There are lots of college that will be thrilled to have him just as he is.
He is good with the gpa and test score. Plenty of AP’s offered by your HS, btw. To be competitive for colleges he should take more foreign language. For example, Wisconsin’s UW flagship successful applicants most often have 4 years of a foreign language. This and researching your own flagship plus other schools will show him why that Spanish may be a better idea than some AP classes. Even a perfect gpa is of no use if one does not have what competitive students for a school have as credentials. Great to self study and take AP exams. Also fine to not have all AP’s offered to fit in the foreign language. Son did his 4th year of French instead of junior year AP lang. arts (did honors class instead) which meant he met all college requirements for foreign language.
Your son needs to consider your flagship and other top tier schools since there are far too many top students, even with his credentials, than room for them at the most elite colleges/universities. Now is the time to lay out the Spanish class reasoning. A hoop he should jump through to make options available.
Maybe he should take some of those electives like CS, and the like in the summer…and take what colleges expect and require during the school year.
Keep in mind that he could also get a great education at schools that are not tippy-top, and his excellent stats could help him get some excellent merit scholarship offers.
My kiddo…like your son…wants to be a researcher.
She’s currently a Junior at University of Michigan studying Microbiology, which is a pre-med curriculum, but she’s more interested in the research track. She’s worked at a research lab all three years, and has worked for another University lab during summers. She’s done her own research and has been accepted to a competitive REU this summer. Biological research is her life.
I can only speak for her specific story…
She didn’t do much history in highschool. She did a year of US, and a year of World History…standard classes, no AP or Honors…just regular old history. With social studies credits for psychology and sociology and civics…she had enough social studies credits and didn’t worry about them overly. This didn’t seem to hurt her at all with college admissions.
She did take AP Bio, AP Chem, AP Physics, AP Calculus, AP English and AP Economics. If your school offers AP science and math…particularly lab science…you son needs to take it. Also AP English.
Foreign language is tricky. Some colleges are going to require more and some will require less for the kind of degree your son wants to get. Our experience has been that more selective colleges will want people going into medicine and research to be able to share that knowledge globally…so require a four term proficiency of a single foreign language.
My kiddo was accepted with two years of French, but she could not pass the comprehensive placement exam. UMich required her to start over with French One, and she decided to switch to Spanish One since she was starting over. (She’s developed an interest in a couple of research projects in the Gulf of Mexico)
But yeah…she’s had to take four terms of Spanish in college for her “scientific research degree”.
She would have been ahead to take more of one language in highschool…to test into a more advanced class. Would have saved her some money and schedule time for sure.
That said…if she’d gone to a different college, or went with a biomedical engineering trajectory with a smaller foreign language requirement, it might have been a waste.
Best to start looking at colleges and see what requirements he needs to prepare for…for the specific programs he’s interested in.
I also wouldn’t discourage self-study for AP’s if that’s what he wants to do.
If you can afford them (they cost less than full-pay at an American private but have no fin aid and virtually no scholarships) and he is dead-set on science research, he may want to look at unis in the UK, who would care only about AP’s, stuff done, and potential in the field he wants to study or related fields and wouldn’t make applicants jump through silly hoops in stuff he isn’t interested in. The Natural Science Tripos at Cambridge looks really neat. Undergrad at the top English Unis is like grad-school-lite with the 3 years equivalent to the last two years of American undergrad in a major and the last year at what would typically be Master’s level in the US.
He should also look in to Northwestern’s ISP program, which was founded to train research scientists and to produce science PhDs. It may potentially be finished in 3 years as well.
Physics and bio in the same year? Very bad idea.
^ Some kids can handle it.
Thanks for all the suggestions and information.Thanks for the information about English universities. I’m not sure how the cost would compare, but the curriculum sounds great.
Very helpful to hear about the U of M student, as U of M is one of our state schools and is great for science research. Not his top choice, as he would rather go to a smaller school, but still a real possibility for him.
Right now he is planning on taking the on line Spanish class this summer as a refresher and probably drop the computer science in order to take Spanish 3 or AP US history in school junior year. Most science programs expect him to have taken computer programming as well as physics and as many science and math AP’s as he can fit in, so he’ll probably have to study the computer programming in the summer over the next two years. He’s chosen to take a rigorous 2 year honors research class as well, which enables him to work with in a research lab at Michigan State for up to two years. For him the research represents pure intellectual heaven plus is a way to set himself apart from other applicants. However, that class, plus music, takes him down to only 4 core courses each year.
Given that he really can’t fit in everything he needs during the school year, it seems to come down to what classes are “respectable” if taken online or in summer school, and which must be taken in a high school classroom setting to be credible?
Costs of UK unis are easily found online. Note that they usually quote tuition in pounds (so you have to convert) and you likely have to tack on $20K/year in living expenses and travel. Add on a few more thousand pounds for the college fees at Oxbridge.
UMich is terrific to have as an option (I think he’s in good shape to get enough scholarships for UMich to be free or close to it).
There are an awful lot of trumpet players at tippy top schools - and tippy top schools have a way of filtering out the kids who they think avoided some classes to protect a GPA, So not taking FL out of fear it will hurt GPA is potentially a mark against him at tippy top schools - and they don’t need to be finding reasons to reject one kid over another when their admit rates are low single digits.
That being said, where have similar students from that high school gone? Have you checked the Naviance? The HS guidance counselor should have some idea as to whether tippy top schools are worth consideration.
I hate to sound harsh or discouraging, and it is more likely than not that the OP’s child will be able to choose from multiple great choices. Even the most extraordinary students often get rejected from multiple elite schools. OP’s child is smart enough to understand what low admit rates really mean.
I don’t understand this scenario AT ALL.
There are thousands of high school students who are able to take the required courses for admission to top schools AND be in the HS band. My own two kids somehow managed to do,that.
Perhaps your son should consider those required courses…and band…ahead of the ELECTIVE courses which he can take in the summer…or some other time.