How do you know if your child would be competitive at top schools?

Many colleges have a core curriculum that requires taking classes which may not be particularly interesting to some students. My STEM concentrator son - a current senior at Harvard, who is exceptional in his concentration, has taken Italian, Hebrew Bible, ancient Roman studies, ethics, global health, among others - has learned much outside of his area of expertise. The top colleges want to educate students broadly, and that means going well beyond what interests them in high school and strives to make them think beyond their own interests. I think that if a HS student demonstrates an unwillingness to take “uninteresting” classes such as a foreign language or history, it may be a red flag to admissions and does not bode well. I think your son should consider taking the classes he needs to be competitive at the colleges he would like to attend. He may like these core classes when he’s a sophomore in college (3-4 years from now).

“The top colleges in the US want to educate students broadly, and that means going well beyond what interests them in high school and strives to make them think beyond their own interests.”

Fixed.

@MaryGJ AP Economics is a social science. If your D took 2 years of history, both macro and micro AP economics and a semester each of sociology and civics, she had 4 years of social sciences. (Psych is generally NOT considered a social science.) The OP’s son is planning to take 2 during the school year and a semester course online during the summer. IMO, those just aren’t comparable situations.

My own observation based solely on anecdotal evidence is that top colleges will forgive an otherwise strong student’s being a bit light in one core subject, but not two.

He might also look at Latin if offered at your school. That would be beneficial for a future researcher.

Latin would absolutely NOT be helpful to a researcher. The first year of Latin would possibly help with terminology root words. But if you’re going to a school that requires four term proficiency in the same language? You’re talking about learning a dead unspoken language which rapidly becomes Classics studies. Latin is a brutal language for advanced study. VERY time consuming and one of the harder languages to learn. It’s a time consuming monster of language past first year.

I know it sounds like it makes sense due to all those Latin names for things in science…but in real application? It’s a terrible idea.

In our experience, many selective schools have a lot of respect for dedication to an area of interest, whether science or music, and understand that sacrifices sometimes needed to be made in terms of rigor in other areas. (Larger schools, and state schools, tend to be more rigid and less “holistic” though.)

I think your son should check minimum requirements at the schools he is interested in, but even those can be “recommended” and flexible if he really wants to focus on areas he is focused on. He can also write a note to be included with his transcript, or the GC can write one, about how course choices were made to enable him to focus on music and science.

That said, in terms of admissions to selective schools, his commitment to science or music generally should extend out of school to well-known summer programs, conservatory prep, regional youth orchestra, that kind of thing.

Basically, it would seem you are grappling with whether he should apply as a well-rounded kid who satisfied all requirements at school, did well, and plays in school band versus more of an “outlier” who maybe hasn’t crossed all the t’s and dotted all the i’s but has followed “passions” in a committed way in and out of school. He is kind of straddling the two approaches to life and admissions, right now.

All in all he sounds like a young man who knows what he is interested in and I think he should just do what comes naturally as much as possible. I would not push for 4 years of Spanish, for instance, or even 3, depending on the requirements for his schools. And computer science might be an important direction for him, too.

I think he’ll end up at a good fit if he pursues what he is authentically interested in.

@PurpleTitan , sure some kids can handle two lab sciences in a year. But given that this student is presumably going to continue with science research, seems to be lacking another year of a language, and doesn’t appear to have a history/social studies class in his junior year, I think it’s a bad idea. He is interested in science, which is is great, but he is also interested in Harvey Mudd and U Chicago, both of which will want to see three years of FL and social studies, I am guessing. Most very selective colleges will probably want to see those classes too. They will want to see continued high grades, and two lab classes means no study hall and probably more stress. I think he should drop one of the science classes and take a language or social studies class. He can take an additional science class as a senior if his schedule has room.

A huge NO! to all who ever state kids should limit themselves.

One size does not fit all. The vast majority may not be able to handle x+y+z… but there are always exceptions. The top kids NEED to take more classes to avoid boredom. Physics and Biology- of course. No study hall- of course (except final semester senior year when no other classes appeal was our case- and his worst grades).

The kids who are competitive at top schools are the ones who do the most in HS and flourish. They also will have to make compromises (as my son did) to fit in some subjects, such as a 4th year of a foreign language.

You know if your kid is competitive if you do not seeing limiting him so he can “do well”. The top kids do well with what others think is too much- and likely get more sleep.

I’m going to ask again…

Why is this an issue for this kid? Thousands and thousands of kids are able to satisfy the recommended and required courses for competitive colleges AND continue to be in the HS band one period a day Every year until HS graduation.

Most do this workout EVER taking a summer school or online class.

The way I see it…this kid wants to take a bunch of elective courses in his area of interest…which would be fine…if he could so, AND meet those minimum requirements for the colleges.

In my opinion, this kid needs to take the recommended and required courses for college admission first…and band. Then IF and only IF he has time, take those other elective courses.

The elective other courses are the ones that should be taken in the summer, and online…not required courses for college admissions.

My humble opinion.

The problem for this particular kid comes with the honors science research class. This is a two year program for sophomores and juniors and is quite selective (10 students a year out of a class of 300). This summer and through his Junior year he will be matched with a university research scientist to do independent research in his lab. So, by doing this two year class, suddenly my son lacks the room in his schedule to fit in the basic classes; this year he dropped Spanish, next year he was considering dropping social studies as well to fit in AP Computer Science. He loves science (he gets A’s in everything else, too, though) and it was our understanding that top colleges want students who are “specialists” in a particular field. The science research course cannot be taken as a summer course, although history, Spanish, computer programming, government, economics, etc etc can. His school has only six periods during the day. There is no such thing as study hall. He will meet the school requirements for courses - two years of language, 3 years of social studies, 4 years (six with the research class) of science, 4 of math, 4 of English, with somewhere between 7 and 10 AP classes and 3 Honors classes, depending on what he chooses. He is not afraid of taking non science or math classes, it is just a matter of what fits in his limited schedule. It seems the advice we are getting is quite contradictory between respondents, and also contradicts the idea that the elite schools desire specialists - students who will definitely make a mark in their fields. I doubt Harvard worried much about whether or not Bill Gates too more than two years of French or Yale whether Emma Watson took AB Calculus. My son hopes to get his name on a scientific paper before graduation from high school. So doesn’t that count for something? And if so, how far from the typical (stereotypical) resume can a student deviate and still be considered adequately prepared? He looks forward to taking humanities and social sciences in college, and is happy to take languages then if the need be. This isn’t about padding his grades or avoiding classes he doesn’t like. He does well in all of it, but hates to give up opportunities that are unique, exciting, and that will advance his knowlege/experience in ways that typical high school classes would not.

Yep, go with opportunities that will help him grow.

Lots of opportunities out there. Maybe take classes in the summer to hit the amounts that some colleges like to see.

Has your son considered approaching university professors directly? My D did that and was able to get summer research positions after sophomore year (but we are in the target rich environment of Boston, which made it easier).

I think this discussion on required courses is necessary but not going to answer the actual question of competitiveness for top schools. Here’s the order of what colleges are looking for:

  • recruitable athlete
  • legacy
  • URM
  • first generation going to college
  • singular talent in music, art (best violinist in state, art or music that's submitted)

If you don’t have those, then you’ll need the stats, and some other hook, like a passion for writing, community service, and they don’t want to see a bunch of different activities. If you’re into writing, enter as many essay contests as you can, publish blogs etc…

@MyrtleD – make sure that your son has the requisite courses for your home state flagship. (I believe you said that was Michigan? No shame there).

Beyond that, let him pilot his own ship. You can have a chat with him if you want about consequences… but the truth is that no matter what he does, chances are that he is not going to get into so-called “tippy top” schools. And if he gives up doing what he wants to tick off some boxes because this is what he will need to get into Chicago or Cornell – and two years from now all he has to show for that effort are a handful of rejection letters… he’s not going to be happy.

When my daughter was a high school sophomore she told me she wanted to do a foreign exchange during her junior year. I suggested considering a gap year, or at least deferring the semester abroad until senior year. No go. I pointed out that if she went abroad for a semester of her senior year, she wouldn’t be able to take the AP courses her classmates were taking. She didn’t care. I didn’t bother pointing out how that would limit her weighted GPA, but I was well aware that she was going to rack up 4.0 A’s while other students were accumulating 5.0 A’s. I also knew that her plan meant a very light courseload during her at-home semester during that all-important junior year, because there weren’t many 1 semester courses to choose from.

But I did tell her that I didn’t know what her time abroad would do to her college prospects. She and I both knew that she would qualify for several in-state public campuses (California) without a problem – admission would be pretty much guaranteed at the less selective state U’s based on her GPA. And we both knew that the time abroad would be viewed favorably by some colleges, but that her choices in course work would not be so impressive to others, and it definitely wouldn’t qualify for “most rigorous.” She planned to make up some of the missed coursework with community college classes over the summer after her junior year, but that plan didn’t come to fruition.

Her profile was very different from your son’s, but it was simply lopsided in a different direction. When it came time to apply to colleges, she had 2 years of lab sciences (bio & chem), and only 2 years of math (counted as 3, because she completed advanced algebra). A smattering of AP’s, but as she had to focus on making up missing coursework with a disrupted schedule, it was hard to fit many in. And many, many hours of dance classes, because she attended an arts magnet high school, designed around every student taking half their classes in their chosen art.

When it came time to apply to colleges, she applied to the in-state U’s and a whole bunch of private reaches. Because my D had studied Russian and lived in Russia, I found some stats about which colleges had strong but under-enrolled Russian departments and encouraged her to target those. And guess what? She was accepted to all of those in-state publics we knew were guaranteed. She was accepted at her reaches as well. (Berkeley, Chicago, Barnard) I don’t think that if she had stayed home and followed the recommended course sequence that those elite schools would have accepted her. (In addition to everything else, her standardized test scores were in the bottom quartile for those schools). I think that by doing her own thing she made herself a more interesting candidate, which happened to mesh with something that was attractive to the colleges she targeted.

Your son has some wonderful strengths as a musician, and he has the opportunity to take a research class that may help him stand out from the crowd. So as a parent you can help him to target colleges where those strengths will work in his favor. You and he need to let go of the focus on the elites - certainly he can apply, but he really needs to target schools that are matches, not reaches. There is absolutely NOTHING he can do short of some miracle happening with the research he is doing that is going to guarantee a spot at Chicago or Cornell.

(My daughter’s experience with Chicago was more than 10 years ago, when the admit rate was 35% – my daughter applied to colleges that were reaches for her, but still had admit rates of 25% or more. If you are looking at a college with an admit rate in the single-digits, no kid is “competitive” unless they have star quality - it is a lottery at best for everyone else).

I think Reed is still a good target for your son, and there are many other schools that are going to love to have him.

If your son aspires to be a science researcher-- the name on his undergraduate diploma isn’t going to mean anything. It is the name of the school that confers his PhD that will mean a lot more. So you might pay attention to which moderately selective colleges have good PhD placement rates.

If your son isn’t willing to look at colleges with acceptance rates in the range of 25%-35% … then he might need to have a long, hard look at his plans. But again, it’s not as if doing everything “right” will guarantee a spot at Chicago, it will just shift the equation around somewhat. Odds are he gets rejected either way. Not because he has done anything wrong, just because they reject upwards of 93% of everyone who applies.

Dupe post. See below.

The problem is not that your S wants to do scientific research. The problem is that your S refuses to drop band to do it AND wants to take 2 science courses or 2 math courses (depending upon whether you treat CS as math or science) in addition to his honors research in the same school year.

For the record, Bill Gates did all his computer work outside of school. Moreover, when he started Harvard, he wanted to be an attorney, so he HAD taken a broader spectrum of courses. Emma Watson went to Brown, not Yale, and she had excellent results on the British A level exams. According to Wikipedia “In June 2006, she took GCSE school examinations in ten subjects, achieving eight A* and two A grades.” She did this while working pretty much full time as an actress and model.

While your examples kind of miss the mark, they make the point. If your S ends up winning a major prize for his research, then yes, the focused approach will probably work. If he’s at the level of these 3 https://student.societyforscience.org/regeneron-sts he’ll probably get in anywhere. But way back when, I knew semi finalists in the Intel who were rejected from HYPSMC. Getting his name on a research paper is impressive, but he’s not going to be the only kid applying to Harvey Mudd who has done that. And I’d bet a fair amount of money that there will be many among them who also took 3 years of both foreign language and social studies/history.

Again, I am not trying to tell you that he can’t take this path and succeed. He might. However, he should realize it’s risky. How risky depends upon how successful he is with his science research. I’ve said all along that the important thing is that he understands the risk when he makes the decision.

To clarify something I said previously…studying on your own for an AP exam CAN be impressive, if it’s one of the hard core APs. But AP psych and AP Environmental Science are “AP light” tests. Years ago, I knew someone who came in top 5 in the Intel. His research schedule made it hard to take all the required classes at his highly competitive private school. He therefore studied physics on his own and achieved a 5 a physics AP exam --I don’t remember whether it was as a sophomore or junior. That IS impressive and he had a valid explanation of why he had done it.

Good luck!

Myrtle D I think you are right in your approach. Selective schools will care less about recommended courses in the context of interesting achievements and activities in a certain field. The two year program sounds great, and I think he should take computer science as well. If he wants a break from academics in the summer, perhaps he could find an internship or lab experience of some sort. And if music is important to him, he should continue. If his schedule is truly too full, he may need to be selective about it or do some music outside of school, but music is important in the lives of many students for many reasons.

The guidance counselor can explain the tight schedule and why choices were made.

Recommendations from the science program, music director or other significant mentors outside the traditional classroom can help too.

Good luck!

You say that your son is aiming at very selective schools like U of Chicago, Cornell, and Harvey Mudd, They might be willing to overlook the fact that he only has 2 years of foreign language. But I think you’re asking too much for them to also overlook the fact the he will only have 3 years of social sciences when he graduates. Taking civics during the summer instead of AP US or AP European History during the year is not going to look that good as a replacement since it’s probably not considered that rigorous.

If it were my son, I would probably insist that he replace AP Computer Science with AP US or AP European History. 11th grade is too early to overspecialize, and taking history will help him become an educated human being. He can (self?) study computer science over the summer instead of civics, or he can take AP CS senior year.

Taking AP Calculus AB and an AP science in junior year is pretty typical for prospective science majors coming from good high schools at the colleges that he wants to apply to. Hell, it’s probably pretty typical for prospective English majors too. The difference is that the average admit at those schools takes those classes plus a “most rigorous” schedule in English, Social Sciences, and Languages. Dialing back on those classes to do science research then means he’s making a bet that he’ll have some pretty outstanding accomplishments from his research to make up for this. I don’t think the science research thing without any state / national level awards will be that unusual in the candidate pool. If he likes band then great, but don’t assume that it will be viewed as anything other than as a typical extracurricular even if he’s first trumpet and such.

You may want to check the admissions requirements of the specific schools your son is interested in.

I just looked at Cornell’s current admissions requirements (because it’s my alma mater and my daughter’s).

https://admissions.cornell.edu/sites/admissions.cornell.edu/files/2017%20Freshman%20Requirements.pdf

You may find some surprises there. You will also find a complete indifference to social studies.

@theloniusmonk

There are TONS…and I mean TONS of excellent musicians applying to top schools.

My kid was a state ranked player on an endangered instrument where often schools don’t have players. It didn’t help,her ONE BIT in college acceptances…but her college orchestra director,was sure happy to,have her!!