<p>“audiographs” constitute talent? Goodness, I better cancel the Backstage subscription and pull D out of school. Clearly, she has no talent. ;)</p>
<p>Thanks again to all for your input. I’m going to try to slow down & enjoy watching the journey. She is a very happy teen for now, and what else is important compared to that?</p>
<p>Exactly Gertrude!! My D has met so many wonderful people, learned so much and had a blast along the way. Have there been down times? Sure. But there is no way she would trade what she has had for anything. (Sent you a PM by the way)</p>
<p>It’s a tough question to answer because as the OP notes, it is hard to be neutral when assessing your own child! Of course they are all great!!! I think they really need to get out into the big arena and see results against the masses of other talented people out there. Of course not everyone can do that depending on location and circumstances. And in 9th grade most kids are still developing their voices and skills. If she really loves it, all you can do is support her in any way you can including voice lessons, and dance if possible. Just driving her to auditions, shows and classes is a huge thing as we all know! If you can manage summer programs- camps or workshops- all the better. As someone said, there are master classes out there that can also help, if you can afford them and they are close enough to be feasible. I do disagree with P8 in that I don’t think you can equate talent with money. I think there are some successful (in terms of money) artists out there who are not particularly talented, but are very business savvy (or have a parent who is) (dare I mention the “Bieb” without risk of being stoned???) On the other hand, there are a lot of very talented people who have not made it big, sometimes thru no fault of their own.</p>
<p>I don’t know ow much talent my kid had or has, but she got her first paying job at 11 and worked - with pay- through HS. BUT she has now stopped doing MT, is a dance major at college with an on again, off again desire to continue in performance. DD was not exceptionally talented in any one area of MT, but she was talented enough, had a look, that was desireable and a work ethic that made her the darling of many local and regional directors - so she worked.
Do I have regrets if she choses not to go on in performance? Yes, I have mothers regrets since I will miss her on stage. BUT what she has learned and the skills she has for being organized, making plans, seeing the world from multiple perspectives, being able to deal with an array of people … are all well worth the money for lessons, driving, flying to NYC for auditions …</p>
<p>Yeah, making money is definitely not a consideration in our definition of success in MT, though of course she must be able to support herself. And really, if you had to pick the HARDEST way in the world to get rich, going into MT would rank way up there.</p>
<p>omg Snapdragonfly…I am smiling and cheering from the wings.
You could not have expressed it more accurately! I complete concur with your assessment of BS (haha her initials even reveal her) and of the others who are sooooo talented and have not yet “made it”
Sure, hard work and talent are extremely helpful in making it into college programs and ultimately in the business. However, there are so many things that play a part…luck being one big one…in getting cast and then paid as a performer.</p>
<p>I have been following this year’s MT hopefuls with great empathy and tremendous hopefulness for you all. I went through this crazy process last year and remember the stress, the heartache of the rejections, the jubilation of the acceptances.
Now the really tough part begins as you weed through the choices and make those difficult decisions about which program is best, and which you can afford :(</p>
<p>All the best to everyone in this process. So glad to be past this part.</p>
<p>Sdf - #10 - brava to you!!!</p>
<p>How to tell-
Last year I got a gal with a masters in VP from a respected music conservatory to put my D through her paces because I had a feeling the weekly voice teacher was just too much of a mom-fan herself by this point. Also got another well-respected vocal person very familiar with the NYC scene to check her out. These were one shot deals so the people had every reason to be forth-coming, since they weren’t recruiting a new student. Those interviews/lessons gave me some confidence to go ahead with the auditions, which have proven to be a very costly adventure, both in time and dollars. However, the schools which rejected her (all very well-known for MT) made me wonder if this was a good idea or not, as I think they have a finger on the pulse of the industry, and they know what types are in demand today. And so, even with a nice collection of acceptances, for which I am surprised and grateful, I still quake in my boots. Yes, she has talent and drive and a serious, serious work ethic, but I have no idea if her type will be marketable in four years time. I struggle to walk the fine line between encouraging her and reminding her that there are no guarantees. This is not an easy journey.</p>
<p>Well…I’m new to MT but I’ve been a visual artist for 35 years - long enough to form my own opinions about the Vinn Diagram concerning talent and succe$$. lol. Thanks, cbk and Cal.</p>
<p>I seem to recall a rather long and recent thread SOMEWHERE, oh I wonder where that was…think think…something about this business not being fair…and I don’t think a single person argued with the basic premise that this business is inherently unfair - though we did explore various aspects of how the unfairness can manifest itself. <em>wink</em> </p>
<p>If this business was truly fair, then everyone, with no exception, (because exceptions are by definition unfair) with talent and a work ethic would “make it” and nobody who didn’t have both those things would. To propose that is how it works is to by association, declare this business (and life in general) to be fair. Which it ain’t. Either everyone gets exactly what they deserve in this life, no more no less, or some people who really don’t deserve bad luck get it, and some people who frankly don’t merit it, just get things handed to them on a silver platter. Personally I think someone would either have to have lived in a bubble their whole lives or be delusional to believe this life is in any way shape or form, fair.</p>
<p>Obviously, continuing to try after having bad luck increases the chances of eventual success, but there are so many brilliantly talented folks who just never do get that break. Just as we have had people post in this forum about friends of theirs this past year, auditioning to get into programs, with crazy talent who amazingly didn’t get any offers. They were in the wrong places at the wrong times: it just how the ball bounced. Of course now they have to figure out plan B, not just accept defeat (and sometimes you find out in retrospect plan B was better anyway) but nevertheless, it wasn’t lack of talent; it was lack of luck.</p>
<p>It’s a rather big part of human nature for people to consider that whenever anything good happens to THEM personally, to reckon it to their own merit and deservedness and to fully take credit, and when bad things happen to them, to reckon it to bad luck that they didn’t deserve; it wasn’t their fault. Those kind of people don’t like to think that people just got a lucky break, when it was THEM. Nope, it’s all their own doing. My priest likes to say “he’s a self made man and he worships his maker.” lol. Droll guy he is. It’s probably the lack of humility that irks the rest of us the most about those people, more than anything. Arrogance, even. And nothing is more charming than someone who is humble and gracious about their success and credits the help other people gave them along the way as well as a big chunk of plain dumb luck that got their talent noticed in the first place.</p>
<p>A more objective view would probably lead to the conclusion that sometimes you get what you deserve and sometimes, for better or for worse, you don’t, and yes, random luck over which you personally had no control, does often factor into things. You can of course control your decisions about what to do but you just can’t control the outcome.</p>
<p>classicalbk - that line between encouraging and being the cold sober voice of reality - yeah, I know just what you mean. </p>
<p>I know my daughter is talented. And hardworking. And so are the other thousand girls wanting the same spots, and then this game is sooo subjective. My daughter envies her friends who are in sports. A score is a score, period - 36 baskets win over 30 baskets shot, it is so much more objective and while losing is always hard, at least you know, in basketball or golf or something, WHY exactly it is that you lost out. We never will really know, in MT.</p>
<p>I know D will be persistent enough to be successful at SOMETHING, eventually - but there are only a handful of Chenowiths and Lupones. I think there are a lot more talented women in the world than the mere dozen or so really big names on Broadway.</p>
<p>This is one of the most intriguing posts I’ve read to date as it addresses what parents of these talented kids all wonder. </p>
<p>Reading this thread: What I’d like to know is: is there such a thing as a MT ‘walk on’? - a kid that didn’t attend a national summer program who nobody knows? Who is prepares on their own with programs/people that nobody on these threads ever talks about? But the kid manages to find a spot, maybe even more than one in the most competitive program? Or is that thinking incredibly na</p>
<p>definitely. i know one super talented kid in general who did lots of summer theatre of course, but didn’t pay to go to any super expensive national programs, nor did they take from anyone more than some people at a local university and a local vocal instructor that i know of. They have more acceptance letters than they know what to do with. : )</p>
<p>Here’s the story of a current MT freshman I know . . . </p>
<p>In his junior year of high school, he needed an arts elective, so he signed up for choir. The theater kids he met in choir encouraged him to be in the spring musical, where he got an ensemble part with some small solos. He also sang a solo in the spring choir concert.</p>
<p>Senior year, he had a small part in the fall play. As I was driving a carload of kids home from rehearsal, he said he was thinking of applying to college for musical theater, as my son was doing. He’d looked at some websites and was trying to decide what to sing and wondered how to find a monologue! This was October of his senior year!</p>
<p>I introduced him to my kids’ voice teacher, took him (along with my younger child and a few other kids) to a performing arts college fair (where I pushed him to talk to people, one who the director of the MT program), and just generally gave him information about the process (most of which I learned here!). I was busy helping my own kid through the process, so I didn’t do a lot. But he worked hard and got his applications done and practiced what the voice teacher taught him, and arranged his auditions. Everyone who heard him sing was just amazed at his voice! The teacher thanked me for sending him to her!</p>
<p>In the spring, he got the lead in the musical–instead of my son! Hmmmmph! But he was wonderful! And now he’s in an MT program and having a fabulous time. But this was the only place to accept him, despite his fabulous voice. It’s the college where he met the program director at the college fair and asked a lot of questions; the director gave him his email address and said he’d answer more. The kid took him up on that and they exchanged several emails. That director knew how hard this kid was working, despite his late start, and that he was doing it all on his own.</p>
<p>So, a wonderful raw talent can get in . . . but . . .</p>
<p>Gertrude, my daughter never attended summer camps that recruited from a national level. Not that I have anything against it, I just never though about it at the time. She had classical voice training from the 9th grade with a very reputable voice teacher, and dance lessons in ballet, tap and jazz from the preschool years, later adding hip-hop to the mix. She started performing in musicals at a local summer camp during the summer of her 5th grade year and fell in love! We sank quite a bit of money into her singing, dancing and summer theater camps over the years, but it wasn’t with the intention of preparing her for a MT theater career. From a parenting perspective, it was to let her pursue her interests, with the added bonus of keeping her busy and out of trouble. But to get back to your original question regarding how we determined if she had the talent to compete, we were never really able to find an answer to that question until after the auditions. Sure, we thought that she “popped” on stage (she’s our amazing daughter after all ;-D) , but other than her voice teacher (who was on Broadway at one point) giving us the “thumbs up” (not exactly the professional assessment we would have liked), we just decided to let her “go for it”, with a solid academic backup plan in place. We hired an audition coach who selected and helped her with her audition material, and kept our fingers crossed. Luckily she has several MT college offers and it all worked out.</p>
<p>I post too much.</p>
<p>Going back to the original question: “How do you know…” You don’t. It is that simple. There is no way to know. Sorry. Hate to say that because it is a hard thing to hear. Raw talent is hard to determine at any age. </p>
<p>I’d like to posit a different question: “why does it matter?” I would like to take this from the standpoint of a parent rather than someone who has made his living doing theatre for a fairly long time. My daughter is young and is a good soccer player. She was also in gymnastics from a very young age. Throughout my time in both of those worlds I consistently hear parents discuss the future of their children as college athletes. In fact, while standing near a group of parents at the gym one lovely day I overheard a parent say “I need the best coach if she’s going to get a college scholarship. It’s the only way we’ll pay able to get her into a great college.” </p>
<p>When I heard this I turned to her and suggested that if she were to take all the money she spent on gymnastics and put it into a decent investment she would likely be able to pay for any college. She was offended that I would suggest her daughter wasn’t good enough. </p>
<p>I don’t know if that girl was good enough or if the freshman in high school are “good enough” or “talented.” Focus on what you can do. You can make it fun, you can emphasize a collaborative art form, you can make them musicians, you can keep them exercising in the studios. What is the worst case scenario after four years? You have a child who loves the arts, is healthy, has learned to work in groups, can take criticism and disappointment with grace and style, has learned that hard work yields results as well as all the lessons great theatre teaches. </p>
<p>But if I take off my parent hat and put on my theatre hat please take this advice to heart. If you are going to spend money on lessons. Please, please, please find someone who has actual credentials - particularly in the world of voice. There are tons of charlatans and folks with half the knowledge necessary to teach voice. Let them learn to “play the instrument” correctly before they begin to do all the vocal gymnastics I hear at auditions. If they take voice from a reputable teacher they can learn to sing. Bad teachers will do damage that will take a long time to fix and schools only have four years.</p>
<p>Same is true of dance. Avoid dance team unless it is in addition to real training. Take ballet first. Find people who teach who have danced beyond their high school dance team. Again, you’ll find studio after studio run by folks who took dance for 12 years, but never with someone who was really good. So they perpetuate the world of mediocre dance and training not rooted in discipline. We see less of this than in the world of voice, but it exists.</p>
<p>Hope this makes some sense.</p>
<p>Oh and… you don’t need expensive training to get into a BFA program. Some dance helps (most certainly!) and good voice will only help, but you don’t need years of training to get you into a program.</p>
<p>kjgc, great points. Thank you.</p>
<p>I am glad to see those and to know that my D’s dance training and voice training, both, have been by reputable professionals with depth of training and strong emphasis on getting the basics down correctly, and while she has a ways to go still (which is why she’s going to college after all) that her foundations have been good and they won’t have to unteach what her dance and voice teachers taught her. </p>
<p>I have had to trust more to luck and instinct on her vocal coach but I know we ended up with a good one because everything that the MTCA people or other acknowledged experts say, is exactly what D’s coach says to her also. As far as her dance - I have to refrain from sounding like I’m bragging about her studio - what can I say, they are wonderful. We don’t even have a dance “team” - not that there is anything inherently wrong with one, but the focus is on ballet, and tap and jazz, and the founder was a June Taylor dancer before she came back to this town and blessed the whole community by bringing the arts to us, basically single handed. Amazing woman, and I think it is not typical to find a studio of that quality in the size and type of town in which we live. We are so lucky. Most of the other studios were started by women who graduated from our studio too: they have an extensive teacher’s course that the girls can start taking every summer at around age 15 and it is very good, my D took two years of it before her drama teacher (rrr) bullied her into quitting it because the two hours a week during the school year that she was an assistant teacher just was TOO HARD for her to schedule around and she didn’t understand why my D even needed dance in the first place. (yes, I know, I know.) I don’t really know how good they are because everyone we know goes to ours: but I do know that when the community ballet does tryouts for Nutcracker, the auditioners (always a professional hired from outside the community, to keep it impartial) always picks twice as many girls from our studio as from all the others combined. We are serious about ballet!</p>
<p>I just put D in dance because she loved it; never bothered with sports, dance was her sport. Looking back at how much it has cost us over the years, (lessons, pointe shoes that she goes through like saltine crackers at a chili cookoff, recital costs and costumes…) I don’t even want to do the math, because I suspect you are completely right about that - invested instead in something fairly safe and successful, it could probably have been enough to pay for most of her college costs…jeeez!!! But what she does have are all the qualities and the knowledge that the activity imparted in her (poise, confidence, discipline) and I knowingly made that tradeoff. </p>
<p>Voice lessons have been more a matter of teaching her the right way to do it enough to get in, period, rather than counting on a payoff of scholarships. lol.</p>
<p>She has basically not had any actual acting instruction (high school drama teacher way to busy to do any of that with them individually of course) unless you count one week Shakespeare summer camps and such so they get a clean slate there. lol.</p>
<p>I’m replying because a) I want to follow it and I thought there was a way to subscribe to a forum without doing so…oh well b) the same thoughts are going through my head daily. We have the process next year and I’ve already starting sweating this out. I love watching my D on stage but she hasn’t gotten the leads, but she has gotten major dance parts. I reassure myself that leads are few but every show needs a chorus. There are definitely more chorus parts then leads in any show.
I have a hard time sending my smart kid on a MT path. However, graduating with an MT degree shows follow through, commitment, understanding of time when projects are due, analysis of character and making amazing presentations. I can’t say you’d get the same from a french lit, a greek language, a history degree or many others that don’t have job guarantees on the other end. It is what she loves, it is her dream, it is her path. I don’t know what next year will bring. She has made it into summer programs- we’ll see what she thinks after being with them for three weeks and what the festival shows. It makes me anxious for her. She’s fine.</p>
<h1>34 Please note the story is about a young man. Not a young woman.</h1>
<p>kjgc- You don’t post too much at all! Thanks for you input.</p>
<p>My apologies. Gender is often misplaced in these posts. Mine was mistaken last week :)</p>
<p>Every parent I speak to wants to know “will my kid work.” My answer is always “yes!” But it may not be in theatre. If you can succeed at the college level in a competitive, strong program you can do anything after that. The statistics of college in general show that less than 30% of college graduates are working in fields that are directly related to their major. </p>
<p>We educate life long learners and I will argue with anyone who says that theatre training isn’t incredibly useful in the world beyond the walls of the proscenium. I have many many friends who have had long, happy and successful careers in jobs that aren’t even arts related but they hold BFA’s and MFA’s in theatre. (Key word "HAPPY:)</p>