<p>"“No birthday or Christmas gifts, and you could pay full pay at Harvard/Princeton?
FrugalDoctor, that’s not being “frugal”.
(For the record, I appreciate your other posts, but I felt really terrible for your kids.
There’s a difference between not giving in to a child’s whining for random gifts, and
depriving them of Christmas and birthday gifts, which, yes, even very very poor people
manage to find, even if it’s just symbolic, cobbled up together, from a church or from a thrift
store. Gift-giving and receiving is very important to
building character, as much as not getting something.)”"</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>And to Kelsmom…of course if the family isn’t Christian, they wouldn’t buy Christmas gifts. But frugal doctor said “Christmas gifts”, he didn’t say Hanukkah or something else. And he is American so I would think that Bday gifts would be of his culture. </p>
<p>I, too, enjoy reading Frugaldoctor’s posts, but I do feel badly for his kids in this area. The concept of giving (I’m not talking about indulging) gifts is an expression of love and “thinking of others,” and “generosity towards others,” etc. Never giving gifts seems almost cold and mechanical.</p>
<p>In defense of frugaldoctor, he didn’t say he never did anything nice or generous for his kids. People attach different significance to different days and recognize them in ways that are personally meaningful. And, as halfemptypockets said, some people value experiences more than stuff. My family is in that camp–we just do not go overboard recognizing either real (to us) or “Hallmark” holidays by buying things we don’t need. I can’t believe people would “feel sorry for” children who by all accounts are happy, grounded and successful just because their family has values other than their own.</p>
<p>Also, +1 to Torveaux’s and twogirls’ posts.</p>
<p>"My family is in that camp–we just do not go overboard recognizing either real (to us) or “Hallmark” holidays by buying things we don’t need. "</p>
<p>Right, we don’t either. I’m not talking about indulgent giving. I’m still bothered by the fact that my MIL bought her kids “everything on their lists”. That was just spoiling and ridiculous. I grew up in a family where each kid got one “main gift” (within a stated STRICT budget) and then some small really needed items…socks, belts, tops, etc. And we weren’t given things at other times unless they were really, really, really needed. </p>
<p>maybe Frugaldoctor bought his kids toys/bikes at other times? If so, then what’s the difference? Like many families, we got our toys or whatever for Christmas or birthdays. When we needed something like new skates, mom would say, “put it on your Christmas/Birthday list”.</p>
<p>Same here. I grew up in a home that focused only on the religious aspect of Christmas. And let me tell ya - it sucked. I wouldn’t do it to my kids for anything. For sure, there’s value in teaching your kids to be independent and to sometimes thumb their noses at the surrounding culture. And other times it just sucks to have a strong difference thrust upon you by your parents. Even the Hindu kids in my school got Christmas/holiday presents. Going back to school after winter breaks and hearing everybody talk about all the cool things they got for Christmas (or Chanukah) did not make me a better person. I wouldn’t wish the childhood giftless Christmas experience on anyone. </p>
<p>I am not one to interfere with other people’s parenting, but if Frugaldoctor’s kid was over my house sometime in the second half of December, I’d probably give him a gift, not for Christmas, but “just because I saw it and thought immediately of him.” </p>
<p>Back to “How does a middle class family pay for Ivies or a private uni”…</p>
<p>Although I’m new to posting, I’ve been perusing CC for a while. It seems that instead of defining middle class by a price tag, it should be more by cost of living per geographic area, which varies tremendously. For instance, in my neck of the woods, if you hit six figures, you absolutely can have a house in a decent neighborhood and send your kids to a decent public school, with money on the side, which, if desired, can be socked away for college. If you hit 200K, you should be able to pay full fare for an Ivy out of pocket, quite easily. In other parts of the country, the starting amount needed will be greater. YMMV.</p>
<p>Also, back to the family I mentioned earlier. My guess is that if their kids end up Ivy-bound, they will receive significant aid, but still have an EFC, which would not be too much more than the state schools, maybe even less. Had they chosen to save, they should be able to meet that. They didn’t. I think that is true for most families (in areas like ours) where folks complain they can’t swing it when, in reality, they made other choices. </p>
<p>Then there are families, like mine, where an Ivy education (or certain privates) would be at least if not MUCH more affordable than any of the in-state picks. I’m not sure some folks are picking up on that, which brings me back to how “middle class” is defined. Again, in my area, the cost of living is decent. However, the EFC is only affordable for families like mine who chose to save along the way. If you can’t swing it, then your kid goes to the state school (not saying that’s bad) with pretty much only loans and whatever, if any, merit aid. Not all state schools dole that out, as we are finding. JMHO.</p>
<p>Gifts are another area that require balance. My sister and I grew up in the same house (obviously) and yet we have very different ideas about birthday and Christmas gifts. She used to have much more money than I did, but still in proportion her kids (same ages as mine) probably received 10 times as much at Christmas, so much that we stopped going to their house. My kids got plenty, but it is still difficult for a 10 year old to watch a peer/cousin open presents for hours when we were done in 20 minutes.</p>
<p>There is just a difference with how we view money. My kids are going to college on scholarships and savings, hers on that plus loans (and I think we chose more wisely which colleges to go to). She’s comfortable with her choices, and I am with mine.</p>
<p>I don’t think that Jersey shore vacation weeks, sports (unless you’re at an elite level, which of course has other payoffs), or birthday presents are going to keep an otherwise full-pay family from being able to afford the price. Homes are by far the biggest expense for most middle-class families, and I don’t think that my kids feel their childhoods were blighted by growing up in a cheap one. School can also be a large expense, and again, my kid don’t feel they should have been sent to private school, or lived where the publics were “better.” So I think those things are where we saved money (and the requisite old cars, no fancy vacations, inexpensive clothes, etc mantra.)</p>
<p>Jersey Shore family gatherings are definitely the stuff of memories. we wouldn’t trade ours for the world. they had little effect on paying for college, though.</p>
<p>your issue, OP, is your definition of middle class (which I assume is easily into six figures, and likely in the top 5-10 per center category).</p>
<p>By economics’ standards, the middle class fares extremely well with need-based aid at the Ivies. Heck, my son attended one for less out of pocket than the cost of our instate flagship (and my income is definitely above middle class).</p>
<p>Yep. Actually, I’m not sure we would even “allow” our child apply to an elite school that was out of reach financially. I mean, of course s/he can apply and see what happens - first lottery is getting in and the second lottery is looking at the financial aid package. If the child misses out on both lotteries, then oh well.</p>
<p>Here’s the deal with dreams. They don’t always come true. And they don’t always lead to better opportunities.</p>
<p>These things are a personal decision for each family. We can all have our opinions but they are purely that. Who am I to tell another family what they should do financially as it relates to the educational alternatives they consider for their children?
In our particular case (we have one child) we are a full pay family, the economic safties are the in state publics and several schools with merit aid being provided. It is quite possible that our child will be accepted at either an Ivy or a top 10 LAC. If that occurs we will have some decisions to make, some of which may involve a change in life style and perhaps downsizing our home.
Many families take out home equity loans or refinance their homes to fund college educations. Some here may think, well you haven’t saved or you have lived beyond your means if you are full pay and you don’t have the money readily at hand. That of course isn’t even close to being true. Periods of time without employment, illness, caring for family members etc. will derail the best economic plans or intentions. As well as providing for your own retirement if you are self employed (I am).
For certain educational opportunities we will downsize and live a much more simpler existence. I don’t see how that is any different than a family that scrimped and saved and did without for many years, making a sacrifice is making a sacrifice. I respect what others may choose to do, but please don’t suggest your way is the right way. What a family prioritizes and how they choose to provide for their children is noone’s business but their own.</p>
<p>I grew up in a household that did NOT celebrate Christmas for religious reasons. I rarely ever received birthday gifts. For me, early childhood sucked! But by college, I began to appreciate what I did have and no longer cared about the frivolous items. I noticed that members of my extended family were contributing to my uncovered college expenses. I reflected on my childhood aand determined that my issues with the gifts were because my friends were getting gifts and not me. But I had overlooked the fact that we were struggling so much financially that my family focussed on the necessities. That was my gift; I had a roof over my head and didn’t go too long without eating. </p>
<p>I do buy my kids toys and fun items on rare occasions. Early on, I did that more often with D1. But the more toys I bought the less she appreciated them. So we stopped. All of a sudden, she began asking for high yield items, books, and LOTS of them. We would buy 10-20 books per week and she treated each one with care.</p>
<p>We have happy kids, who love being home, and don’t feel entitled. My daughter reviewed some of these posts and thought it was strange that people felt sorry for her. Her thoughts were with people who suffer from famine. With the money we saved for college that we don’t spend, we can defer it for covering all of medical school. That will be a lasting gift that we will be happy to give.</p>
<p>BTW, several middle class people I know sent their kids to Ivy League schools with borrowed money and paid them off over the following years. I know of very few people who were able to write a full check out of their bank accounts for the cost.</p>
<p>I understand coming from a culture that doesn’t celebrate Christmas, etc (we celebrate it secularly because we’re not religious). It just seemed that the no presents was connected to the poverty and not anything cultural. </p>
<p>There were Christmases and birthdays where I literally got just books or small presents. Heck, for this birthday, my mom got me just fuzzy socks and they are awesome! I still treasure the presents and the memories.
It is what it is. </p>
<p>“I do buy my kids toys and fun items on rare occasions. Early on, I did that more often with D1. But the more toys I bought the less she appreciated them. So we stopped. All of a sudden, she began asking for high yield items, books, and LOTS of them. We would buy 10-20 books per week and she treated each one with care.”</p>
<p>Maybe the difference is in timing. It sounds like you buy your kids things just “whenever” rather than at “gift giving times”. </p>
<p>Unless you have little ones, you’re probably not in the toy-buying stage anymore. If your kids are teens, then they’re more likely looking at clothes, electronics, etc. </p>
<p>So @frugaldoctor buy gifts for his/her children, it’s not just during Christmas and during their birthdays</p>
<p>In our case we give gifts to our kids during Christmas and their birthdays, but things that they really need. We just wrap them and time it so that it camouflage as “Christmas” or “birthday” gifts. We rarely buy them any “fun” things that they really don’t need. I don’t see any difference between my method and frugaldoctor’s method.</p>
<p>Someone upthread noted she was secretly happy when her kid didn’t get in to his dream school. We had sort of the same situation with one of our sons. We told him that, by virtue of his hard work/excellent grades, he had earned the right to apply wherever he wanted to go. However, we also told him (and had for many years prior) that mom and dad could afford to pay X, and anything over that was his to cover, whether with merit aid, working, or loans he would be paying back.</p>
<p>Part of our agreement was that he would apply to three “likely” schools, and three probable matches; the rest could be reaches. He applied to nine, got in to eight including two of the three reaches. His top reach turned him down. We – especially my husband – were sorry our son was disappointed but secretly relieved for financial reasons. The school is notoriously stingy with merit aid. Son had a classmate with better SAT/ACT scores who DID get in to that same reach…at full pay. That young man is attending the pricey reach, and his parents are really scraping to pay for it. Meanwhile, our son is attending one of his other reaches, which provided him with generous merit aid and an on-campus job. No loans needed. Whew. </p>
<p>To answer the OP: middle class people can afford high-cost schools IF they plan many years in advance, which may require sacrificing in other areas over the years to save for college. The decision as to whether the sacrifice is worth it is one only you can make.</p>
<p>It is wrong to assume that the only value of an education is how much income you earn.</p>
<p>Secondly, it is not as if the other “good schools” that are competitive with the Ivies are that much different in cost. In addition, many of the Ivies have significant aid. </p>
<p>Tulane, for example, approx #50 on a list of the best colleges has tuition of around $47k. Princeton is 40k, Harvard 42k, Yale 44k</p>