<p>Trancestorm, I am not discarding logic and reason. Of course, these facets are vital to almost all means of life. But how can you use logic or reason on religion? We can't see, smell, or touch God, therefore we must believe in God by faith. However, the order and precision in our world LOGICALLY points to a creator.
Can you explain how the sun is perfectly positioned so that life can go on in earth. If the the earth were just a little closer to the sun, the earth would burn
Trancestorm, I thought you had some school work to attend to. :)</p>
<p>"great, you are now 0/3 in meaningful comments"
lol the cry of the sore loser. maybe if you focused on actual arguments more you might get some respect.</p>
<p>oh and going back to original argument, I got your bible point- there's no logic behind religion. MY point, however, was not self-sufficient. It was logic. Read it again. Well first, go to dictionary.com and look up logic and read it again. And maybe look up any big words you might not have understood there too. ;)</p>
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Can you explain how the sun is perfectly positioned so that life can go on in earth. If the the earth were just a little closer to the sun, the earth would burn
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<p>It is just as feasible that trillions of planets in trillions of different galaxies had poor conditions for life...We happened to be the one that worked out on all different levels. Such is my belief.</p>
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Trancestorm, I thought you had some school work to attend to.
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haha you are right....i just cannot resist. Internet blogging is a dangerous habit.</p>
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What do you guys think is more complicated, the universe, or God?
Cause if God is more complex, then it's easier to believe that the universe could have come about on its own than God.</p>
<p>And you...
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<p>I believe that was your "intellectual" post. I addressed it back when you posted it. I told you that the complexity of the situation or, for that matter, our ability or inability to comprehend certain ideas does not make them any less likely. I am not looking for the "easier belief" out, i am looking for the absolute truth. </p>
<hr>
<p>For all theists, i pose this question. Assuming that I accept your premise of the creation of the world and its natural laws. I concede that a divine being created the world and all the natural laws. THis only shows that a divine presence existed at the time of the creation of the world and natural law. This, however, does not say anything about the existence of god in present day. In essence, how can you prove that god did not create all and then die (it is just as likely as the assumption of a god from the rational standpoint). </p>
<p>This is the basic philosophy of Deism adopted by many prominent philosophes such as Thomas Paine.</p>
<p>Please comment.</p>
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In essence, how can you prove that god did not create all and then die (it is just as likely as the assumption of a god from the rational standpoint).
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Well, I beleive that God created and sustains the universe - if God did not exist, the universe wouldn't either. To be able to understand God is outside of our limits as human beings. We are confined to time and space - god isn't. It's like a computer trying to understand what a human is (okay, okay, I know that that example is only going to incite a ton of responses about how computers aren't living, etc etc... bad example, maybe. But it was only an example. you get my drift, anyway.)
If this argument had an end, there wouldn't be 44 pages of discussion here, because this topic has been discussed billions of times. If everyone had reached an agreement, we wouldn't still be discussing it. It's neverending.</p>
<p>chocolateluvr88:</p>
<p>Muslims, Christians, and Jews all pray to the same God. Christians see Jesus as an additional God/holy figure.. so Christians essentially see Jesus and God as the almighty ones.</p>
<p>Muslims only worship ONE God, and to my knowledge Jews do too (correct me if I'm wrong).</p>
<p>You mustn't forget that Judaism-Christianity-Islam are all essentially the same religion/principle with some glaring differences, mainly becuses of the time periods and peoples in which each one developed in. The God (excluding Jesus) talked about in each religion refers to the same Almighty being.</p>
<p>How they see the same God, however is different - forgiving, kind, etc. etc. But it's still the same God.</p>
<p>to the general public:
I'm Muslim, and I believe in God (arabic name - Allah - this is not a different God from the one must of you are familiar with, simply a different name in a different language.). No amount of rationalization from a mortal is going to change my mind. You may call be blind or whatever you want.. but I believe in God, which is answering the topic question I guess.</p>
<p>Trancestorm- I was using the logic of theists, who calim that the universe could not have come about on its own b/c it is so complicated, while they really worship something that they believe is much more complicated and came about on its own. Just showing the faults in their thinking.</p>
<p>fjchowdhury- How can you just disregard Jesus? That is a big part of the Christian religion, and contradictory to Jewish beliefs.</p>
<p>I'm not disregarding Jesus. I'm just saying that the Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same one "original" God. Christians, however, worship Jesus in addition to God.</p>
<p>Muslims beleive in Jesus - we just don't worship him. We believe he was a messenger sent from God - which christians beleive too, i'm not saying they don't. Argh, okay, I'm making no sense, am I?</p>
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Trancestorm- I was using the logic of theists, who calim that the universe could not have come about on its own b/c it is so complicated, while they really worship something that they believe is much more complicated and came about on its own. Just showing the faults in their thinking.
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<p>Ok then...we are on the same team...the point you made by addressing my point was the very statement you used to refute it.</p>
<p>"Ok then...we are on the same team...the point you made by addressing my point was the very statement you used to refute it."</p>
<p>Which points could you possibly be talking about? The original argument? Not at all, it is still not self-sufficient. The only flawed statement was yours, but it is good to know we're on the same team. (Although it was kind of obvious the first time I posted...........)</p>
<p>ohhhhhhhh lol I see what happened here. When I first posted, I wan't saying anything in response to your post above mine; I didn't even read it. We've been on the same team the whole time. I was just talking to people in general. Well religious people actually. Yeah, well it was an interesting debate.
Catch you later.</p>
<p>I am an athiest.</p>
<p>Athiest also.</p>
<p>Why are atheists , atheists? Well, it may have been because of a traumatic event or other situation. No one is born an atheist. It is impossible for this to happen. Why? People are born with a natural curiosity of a higher being. God instilled this inside of us to seek Him.
As people say in the south here, " Y'all needs to get yursilf ento a BIIBle Beelieving church." In the south, people often are in financial difficulty, not always, of course. This adversity often brings one closer to God. Look at the families who lost loved ones in the mining disaster in WV. I believe those families are closer to God than ever before.
I feel so sorry for atheists. Their life is so tangible, so delicate. Once they die, that is it. However, a Christian finds peace, for he knows that he possesses eternal life. Life is seemingless and futile to an atheist, but a Christian has a goal to serve Him. I found it comical when I asked earlier about life after death for an atheist. They couldn't answer me. Answer me! Answer me where an atheist goes after death. ANSWER ME! Contestame, por favor.</p>
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No one is born an atheist. It is impossible for this to happen. Why? People are born with a natural curiosity of a higher being.
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How do you come up with these things? :eek:</p>
<p>i believe in God.</p>
<p>I'm agnostic, although I wish I had the guts to be a committed atheist.</p>
<p>For anyone interested, I recommend "The Future of an Illusion" by Sigmund Freud. It's a quick read that explains Freud's quite reasonable theory that humans created religion as a massive security blanket.</p>
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Why are atheists , atheists? Well, it may have been because of a traumatic event or other situation. No one is born an atheist. It is impossible for this to happen. Why? People are born with a natural curiosity of a higher being. God instilled this inside of us to seek Him.
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<p>This is a very faulty generalization; that nobody is born atheist. True, humans may be born with curiousity, but this does not necessarily lead to god. If anything, curiousity leads away from god as people explore the anomalies that arise with religion and belief.</p>
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Look at the families who lost loved ones in the mining disaster in WV. I believe those families are closer to God than ever before.
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<p>Actually, they are beginning to question god and why he took away their "miracle." </p>
<p>looky here
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/04/mine.explosion.wed/index.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/04/mine.explosion.wed/index.html</a>
click on the video with the lady's reaction</p>
<p>such is the problem when you live your life by the uncertainty of theist culture. You justify all the flaws of your life, using god and belief in god as the justification. Reality, however, is irreverent of divinity and belief...Believers in god are no more prone to "miracles" than atheists...the only difference is the appraisal of the event which often leads to dashed hopes (as was the case in the disaster).</p>
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I feel so sorry for atheists. Their life is so tangible, so delicate. Once they die, that is it. However, a Christian finds peace, for he knows that he possesses eternal life. Life is seemingless and futile to an atheist, but a Christian has a goal to serve Him. I found it comical when I asked earlier about life after death for an atheist
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<p>I cannot comment for all, different religions have different justifications of life/ life after death. Buddhist (an atheistic religon) says that you reach enlightenment before merging with pure knowledge itself. </p>
<p>As an atheist, i think not about what happens in my supposed "life after death", but rather the tangible (as you say). Focus on this life, not the next is my philosophy...live this life up to the maximum, do good for others as well as yourself...if there is another life after this, perhaps i will suffer then, but if there isnt, at least i did not waste it with theistic thought. </p>
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However, a Christian finds peace, for he knows that he possesses eternal life. Life is seemingless and futile to an atheist, but a Christian has a goal to serve Him.
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Just because one thing may seem like a better outcome to you m akes it no more likely. Just because you would like to live your life believing in a heaven does not make heaven a reality. Thus, the only logical way is to evaluate heaven in its own respect....this process of evaluation leads me to believe that heaven does not exist...your belief-influenced evaluation leads you to believe it does....</p>
<p>Either way, the belief in itself will not change the outcome of what happens. Thus to say, an atheist's life is tangible and limited while a theists life is full of glory after death does not hold....I cannot conceive different things happening to us after we die....why would a christian be sent to judgement and an atheist just "cease to exist" if the christian way was the right way? Wouldnt the atheist face god on judgement day as well? What happens after death is the same for atheists and theists, you must agree with me on that; we do disagree on what will happen. (some people dont disappear while others get judged) Either one or the othe rfor theists and atheists</p>
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I feel so sorry for atheists. Their life is so tangible, so delicate. Once they die, that is it. However, a Christian finds peace, for he knows that he possesses eternal life. Life is seemingless and futile to an atheist, but a Christian has a goal to serve Him. I found it comical when I asked earlier about life after death for an atheist
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<p>Jews don't care nearly as much about the afterlife as Christians. Do you feel sorry for them too?</p>
<p>I feel worse for a Christian who worries every day of their life whether or not they're going to be "good enough" to get into heaven. As an atheist, I worry less about the after and more about the now.</p>