How many of you "help" fill out apps?

Parents Forum
101

<p>In response CGM's comment's about "something is wrong with your child if they revise an essay that many times" -- my son doesn't <em>normally</em> revise essays repeatedly. Normally he writes one draft and gets an A+, which pretty much irritates his classmates and sister. But normally, an individual essay isn't going to be a major factor in determining the course of the next 10 years of his life, either. </p>

<p>75% of my son's college applications were not the same information. 25% was the same, but the largest part -- the essays -- were unique to each of the schools. Stanford has one set of prompts. U Chicago has another. Kenyon's supplement asked one set of questions, and Sarah Lawrence wanted something else, and so on for each school. He had to write about books and music that he would recommend, a summer experience that meant a lot to him, which class he had taken that most influenced his education, and I'm pretty sure you all are aware of all these sorts of questions. </p>

<p>The bottom line is that every essay and every short answer on every application was treated as if it was the one piece of writing which might gain or lose him acceptance into that school, and gain or lose him the financial aid he needed to be able to attend a particular school. Was that perhaps assigning them more importance than they had? I don't know. But I was nothing but proud to see him slowing down and crafting wonderfully expressive pieces of writing for his applications. Each application spoke very vividly about who he is as a person and who he wants to become. He threw away some perfectly fine essays while working on the process, because they didn't speak clearly enough about <em>him</em>. </p>

<p>As CountingDown said: "DS laid his heart and soul out there, and that took a lot of courage and time on his part to get it just right."</p>

<p>Exactly. </p>

<p>Now that my son is at his dream college, living in the reality he hoped for himself, he sometimes does his papers at the last minute, and sometimes gives them more revisions. He's not having any problems multitasking, or handling college by himself.</p>

<p>BTW, my son spent most of his education writing 6-10 page papers in the 6 hours between 1 AM and 7 AM the day the paper was due -- even the ones for his classes at Stanford. He's grown up in a family of writers. We don't have any problem slamming out good work fast-- I could do it, his father could do it, and he does it.</p>

102

<p>I don't think we need to justify the time our kids put into well crafted essays. </p>

<p>For reasons I truly do not understand, there are posters who spend a great deal of time criticising others and their children whenever the choices made by others are not the same as the posters'. </p>

<p>To those I say: "The choices I make or my child makes do not threaten or invalidate that choices you and your family make."</p>

<p>I really do not think that will make a difference in the amount of vitriol that pops up from time to time, but I am going to try to remember and use that phrase.</p>

103

<p>"To those I say: "The choices I make or my child makes do not threaten or invalidate that choices you and your family make."</p>

<p>Applauding wildly. May I occasionally borrow this satement, Mafool?</p>

104

<p>Mafool:
What you said!</p>

105

<p>Yes, please! Except that my bad typing struck again!!</p>

<p>"The choices that I make or my child makes do not threaten or invalidate the choices that you and your family make."</p>

<p>:)</p>

106

<p>Mafool - I am still nodding in agreement with your earlier post about allowing kids to suffer the consequences when they match the mistake - but with college apps - whole different situation. </p>

<p>I helped more than I planned. DD applied to twelve schools. Ten of the twelve were highly competitive where no one is guaranteed admission. The deadlines and the details were daunting (whooo - nice alliteration), so I helped with those things, but left the personal, intellectual stuff to her. </p>

<p>Like many other CC kids, she left for school by 7 and was often home in the evening after participating in an EC (three season athlete + music + research, etc.) She had homework for 6 classes and really had little time to work on college apps. I personally think it would be wonderful if "college apps" were a one semester course in high school - totally impossible, but a nice idea.</p>

<p>I will say she is not a perfect kid. I KNOW her essays (for college apps and course work) took much, much longer once she had a facebook. However, as it was her senior year, I decided to back off (once I had done some brief nagging). I know it caused her some additional stress, but I knew I had to let her go. So, I focused on keeping her apprised of deadlines, but let her figure out how to meet them. </p>

<p>Who knows what the best approach is? None of us do and it varies by situation. I think we all do the best we can, hope the good outweighs the bad, and not take too much credit or too much blame.</p>

107

<p>Man, this thread brought out a lot of responses!</p>

108

<p>
[quote]
BTW, my son spent most of his education writing 6-10 page papers in the 6 hours between 1 AM and 7 AM the day the paper was due

[/quote]

TrinSF,
my first thought was "he must be at Stanford" -- it was funny to see that I was right!</p>

109

<p>Oh, no, he's not at Stanford. He attended SSC there, though. At some point he realized that Stanford's Psych department is not hospitable to his areas of interest. (Did I mention he's a big ol' Freud freak?) He's at Reed, which he finds harder than Stanford. :-)</p>

110

<p>I filled out the "information" portion of my D's top three schools, and put together the rough draft of her resume, but she did the hard parts of writing the essays. I also put together all of the forms and addressed the envelopes for the teacher and counselor reqs, but she was the one that asked the teachers for the reqs, and gave them the paperwork.</p>

<p>I did this because she was busy enough with her school work, and EC's and didn't need the added stress of the clerical work. </p>

<p>I'm a HUGE rule follower, and do not fee like I did anything inappropriate at all.</p>

<p>Now, she's been accepted to two of the three, and we have every expectation that the third will accept her too. If she wants to apply anywhere else, it's all up to her.</p>

111

<p>Let me first start out this post by saying that yes, I do agree with teamwork. And that yes, I do agree that there are many times where some are responsible for more intellectual tasks and some are responsible for more of the clerical tasks.</p>

<p>Also, I don't think that by filling out the more informational parts of the form jeopardizes your child from having an independent and happy life.</p>

<p>But it does seem odd to me that parents fill out any part of the application form. </p>

<p>One reason that seems to be given is that children are too busy. But often, the reason why they are so busy is because they are trying to establish good credentials for college admissions. </p>

<p>But then they are so busy establishing credentials for college that they don't have time even apply to college--doesn't this seem to be ironice? </p>

<p>I disagree with the notion that kids simply cannot 'chose' to miss football practice so they can do their applications. Practices can be missed, and if the coach has a problem with the reason, then the athlete suffers the consequences. Missing one or two practices so you can make sure you get your applications done doesn't seem like you are not committed to the team. I doubt that missing a practice for college applications will get you kicked off a team.</p>

<p>I do know something about competitive sports, because both my sons play on very competitive traveling soccer teams (state champs!!)--the kind of teams you play on so you can play at the collegiate level. The one in HS has been traveling almost every other weekend out of state. His coach is an assistant coach at a D1 school. There have been times when there has been just too much, and he has missed one or two practices. It hasn't affected his performance, nor does his coach think he is not committed. He has not been kicked off the team, and he is still a starter.</p>

<p>The claim being made in this case is that your shouldn't have to chose. But I would ask this question--why must you 'have it all'?</p>

<p>Another reason given is that parents want to be helpful--that members of the family help each other. I do realize that one poster was being a bit facetious in the argument-I shouldn't help my spouse with the dishes just in case I inhibit independence--but note that similar humorous and facetious arguments can be made against the teamwork argument. For example, I guess if families are a team, then I should help my HS sophomore put on his clothes, ties his shoes etc. because 'we are a family, we are a team' and we should help each other out. Again, I am not being serious here, but I hope my point is being made.</p>

<p>So yes, there are times in family life when everyone pitches in to help. And there are times when each person is required to do the task him/herself. So I ask why isn't making sure the college application gets done--from filling out the required information about address etc., writing the essays, to addressing the envelopes and meeting the deadline--one of those times when it is up to the kid to complete the entire task with minimal support from parents? </p>

<p>And if college application time is not one of those times when you can expect your 18 year old to have complete investment in the process--from the tedious, time consuming filling in name, address etc. part to the more creative and intellectual essay writing part, from the first request for information to the last making sure the deadline is met, then what is a time when you can expect them to have complete investment? </p>

<p>After all, we may be filling out the forms but they are applying and going--we aren't. Perhaps we can use the application process itself as a reminder to them that they are expected to be more independent, more in control?</p>

112

<p>I think it's almost comical that there are people who equate working together as a team on something like this with tying your teen's shoes. My teen has done his own laundry since he was 8 years old. During his time in an abusive household, he also cooked all the meals, did all the housework, and had to provide emotional support to the adults in the household. He was having to be the "adult" in a dysfunctional household when he was 12 years old. Maybe your kids need to learn to be independent. Mine has that down at this point. Being in our healthier household allowed him to see healthy interdependence modeled.</p>

113

<p>
[quote]
For example, I guess if families are a team, then I should help my HS sophomore put on his clothes, ties his shoes etc. because 'we are a family, we are a team' and we should help each other out. Again, I am not being serious here, but I hope my point is being made.

[/quote]

I don't think it is a very good example... However, if your child is running late, and can't find the car keys (which he should have kept in a designated place, and you "told him so") -- would you help him looking for the keys, even though it's all his fault? I would. I would also help with "clerical work" on applications if I feel that the kid is drowning in the paperwork.</p>

114

<p>We make the choices that are appropriate to our families.</p>

<p>My decision to provide clerical assistance in the app processes (college and scholarship) had nothing to do with S's "commitment" to the process. It was simply an acknowledgment on my part that it was something I could do so that he could participate more fully in other activities. I was happy to do it and he appreciated it. If I had been unable to help, he would have coped.</p>

<p>I'm confident that, if he were in a position to similarly help me or his father, he would do so without hesitation, as he already does with regard to computer and vehicle problems.</p>

115

<p>"During his time in an abusive household, he also cooked all the meals, did all the housework, and had to provide emotional support to the adults in the household. He was having to be the "adult" in a dysfunctional household when he was 12 years old. Maybe your kids need to learn to be independent. Mine has that down at this point. Being in our healthier household allowed him to see healthy interdependence modeled."</p>

<p>the last line doesn't even make any sense in context of the first lines of the paragraph....</p>

<p>I don't know, having a child cook all the meals, be the support for all those adults seems pretty sad to me to be honest</p>

<p>and SKRLVR- your post was spot on....its all about CHOICE and for many kids, seems they are too "busy" to do something that will absoulutey affect their lives..."busy" by choice, and we all know that many ECs are social in nature and can be missed, but heaven forbid, the student have to make that choice...</p>

<p>to me, it is better I put away Ds cloths and do her laundry to pick up the slack while SHE does her own applications</p>

116

<p>What's not clear? My son was in an abusive household, where he was made to do those things. He went to court to petition for a change in custody for himself and for his sister -- again, talk about being independent! -- and after a year, got to get out of that awful situation. He spent the next four years living with my partner and I, in a much healthier situation. </p>

<p>(BTW, finding it funny someone goes on about independence and then says they do their child's laundry. <em>laughter</em>)</p>

117

<p>Because many of those "Excuses" were echoed by me; and some "specifically" made by me; I will comment. However, there are times when a horse is dead, and therefor should no longer be beat. I feel I have just about turned this horse into dog food, so this will be the last comment on this thread I will post. Obviously, others are free to comment as much as they want. Anyway; in no particular order.</p>

<p>1: I will not dispute, nor have I, that a student's life is occupied 100% 24/7. It isn't But when a student/child has exhibited self discipline, independence, maturity, time management, etc... and has proven to be capable of handling just about anything thrown at them; including 18 hour days dedicated to improving themselves academically, physically, socially, and towards assisting others; why must we/I as parents impress even more upon them. Especially of tedious tasks. Especially when they rarely, if ever, ask for help. At this juncture of a child's life, if all listed attributes above apply to the student, and the parent wished to "Offer" assistance, or it is one of the "RARE" times when the student/child asks for help, what hard is done. ABSOLUTELY NONE!!! The student/child has already proven themselves. There are no lessons to be learned here by them doing the admin portions of the application along with the essays and short answers which they are doing anyway. If I can we/I as parents can assist, because they asked or we offered, and help them out a little bit, excellent. </p>

<p>In my particular case; which I'll state being it's the last post on this topic I will make and I don't want to have to explain myself afterwards; my son is in the IB program. He is a straight "A" 4.0gpa student since 8th grade. His class rank is #1. He is in the National Honor Society. Does many hours of volunteer service teaching young kids to read. Was a delegate to boy's state. Is a 3 year varsity football player. (The only IB student on the football team) All-State starter in 3 positions. Is a 3 year varsity soccer player. Starter. Takes 9 classes per semester. Starts classes at 7am and gets out at 3:30pm. Has chores to do at home. NEVER asks for help. (We have to offer help just to get him to slow down). And there is even more. I am NOT writing this to try and impress anyone, even though I am very proud of him. I am writing this to illustrate that he has demonstrated beyond any question by me or his mom, that he is one of the most organized, ambitious, committed, dedicated, responsible, young person that we could ever dream to have as a child. He does all the important parts of the apps like essays, short answers, correspondence, coordination with teachers and counselors, etc... We help with the basic Name, SSN, Phone, bla bla bla parts of the application. The time consuming portions. </p>

<p>Now; could he do all this himself. Yes, if we made him. My question is; WHY???? There is absolutely NO REASON you can possibly give me. Don't say he would learn something from it or it's going to make him a better person/student. I call B.S. on that. Some kids, yes. Him. NO!!! There is absolutely no reason in the world to MAKE him do it all other than some selfish and self absorbed power trip rationalization that it will help in. And that the parent is too lazy and uninvolved to HELP their child. The truth is, I would rather he be well rounded. I prefer he have some down time. I prefer he get to spend some time with friends. But don't get me wrong; there are some students that have not demonstrated the traits that my son has and probably don't NEED nor DESERVE such help. Again, there are no reasons in the case of my son that I shouldn't offer to help. HE HAS DESERVED IT!!!!!!! </p>

<p>2: You obviously don't know much about "Varsity" high school sports. Other than illness, injury, or death/like in the immediate family, missing practice is NOT tolerated. We are not talking about a "REC" league. Kids in most schools who are involved in VARSITY sports such as football, basketball, track, swimming, etc... are on a TEAM. The team has a responsibility to EACH of the other players. Games are on Fridays for football, and as such, plays are designed and worked on at practice. If you aren't there, you won't know them, and you WON'T BE PLAYING COME FRIDAY NIGHT. Now, you might think; SO WHAT? Well, for a well balanced student/child/athlete, this is a commitment that they have made and they WON'T let their team mates down. And they won't jeopardize the respect of the coach and other players. Athletics is JUST as important as academics. The worst thing schools did was to minimize or eliminate gym classes, competition, team events, etc... That's why we have so many lazy, overweight, self centered, self absorbed young people. </p>

<p>But even then, my son wouldn't HAVE to choose. There are those few hours on the weekends when he could be doing the applications totally on his own. But my question again is; WHY????? He gains NOTHING from it. He's already proven his capabilities. He's already proved his integrity and work ethic. He's already proven his self sufficiency and independence. I've hired and fired a lot of people in my time. Some of you remind me of supervisors and managers who INSTEAD OF REWARDING their better employees, you give them MORE WORK AND MORE RESPONSIBILITIES. Beeppppp; WRONG ANSWER: THANKS FOR PLAYING. NEXT CONTESTANT. </p>

<p>Sorry, but families DO help each other. (Well, families that have a close relationship do). Assistance, Help, etc... is given when 1) It's asked for/or offered and accepted. 2). It's needed! Not because they're lazy, don't want to do it, or want to do something else. AND 3) BECAUSE THEY DESERVE IT! That they contribute and that they have helped others in the family when needed.</p>

<p>So, believe what you want. Unfortunately, there are too many extremists here. I don't do well with such narrow attitudes. There are no finite answers here. I, and plenty of others, have expressed that there are indeed times when a student/child doesn't deserve or need assistance/help with the college applications, and they need to learn to do such things on their own. We have agreed and admitted that. BUT, many of also feel that each kid is different, and some DO deserve and have earned the RIGHT to have help/assistance with their applications or ANYTHING if they ask or are offered. The difference is; many of us don't believe that a student should ALWAYS have to do it themselves and that a parent should NEVER offer help. </p>

<p>So, flame away if you want. I don't care. I won't respond on this topic anymore because it's not going to go anyplace. Some people just won't budge from being extremists. Unfortunately, your kid isn't mine. Mine isn't yours. Maybe you perception of this topic and children in general is based ONLY on your child. That is a common fallacy. Some parents and students look at their situation and want to believe that they are the NORM. That they are in the majority. Therefor, all their opinions of what others should do is based on what they do. Sorry, but I don't believe in that. I believe in individuality. I believe that each student/child is unique. I didn't raise my daughter and my son the same way; I'm sure not going to base the way I raise them on how strangers are raising their kids. If parents would learn more about their kids; find out what makes them tic; figure out what they want, need, etc... Instead of reading books, magazines, forums, etc... on how to handle my kids; then I believe that their kids would be much better adjusted to life than they are now. Again, there are no absolutes. I'm positive that there are plenty of parents right here on this forum who have done a marvelous job raising their kids. I also believe that there are plenty of parents on this forum that probably have no idea what they are doing and have judged all their decisions off of what others have said and suggested, instead of finding out directly from their kids the best way to be a parent. It's actually not that hard. Anyway, merry christmas everyone.</p>

118

<p>I said when they get super busy, I would rather I do their laundry then there applications...and as for laundry, sometimes, gasp, I grab some of their clothes so I can, gasp wash a full load and not waste energy or water</p>

<p>sometimes, there are environmental reasons for sharing a load- what a concept!!!</p>

<p>I just can see the difference between laundry and getting the work done to get into a college</p>

119

<p>Christcorp: <em>applause</em> </p>

<p>Exactly.</p>

120

<p>I think the point of my 'tying shoes' example missed the mark. It wasn't meant to be a serious example; it was given as a response to an earlier remark about self-sufficiency. Just as you can give an outrageous example to highlight certain aspects of the self-sufficiency argument (I kind of like the idea of self sufficiency. Tonight when my wife asks me to bring her the dirty dishes off the dining room table; I'll remind her that she needs to do it herself so she doesn't rely on me and won't know how to do it when I die and am not there any longer.), you can give an similar type of example for the team work argument (I like the idea of teamwork. This morning, when my teen wakes up, I'll put his clothes on and tie his shoes, because families work together to get things done and often times there is so much to do in the morning.) </p>

<p>Few of us would think it is appropriate not to help with the dishes, just like few of us would think that it is appropriate to tie our teens shoes.</p>

<p>Of course there are times when we pitch in to help them, and as they get older they pitch in to help us.</p>

<p>I am reminded of an article I read that parents are now becoming more involved in the job interview process for their college graduate! Obviously some parents think this is appropriate and I bet many would be appalled. But to discuss this would be another thread. </p>

<p>I just don't buy the claim that seniors are too busy to do it themselves, and that we are simply helping them out by filling in the tedious stuff so they can concentrate on more interesting or important stuff.</p>