How realistic are full scholarships?

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>Hi, I’m a Belgian citizen living in the Philippines. I completed a bachelor’s degree in Composition here in the Philippines but due to lack of facilities and core composition subjects, I feel that my training is incomplete. And so I have decided to study for a bachelor’s degree of music composition in the US.</p>

<p>Although I am a Belgian Citizen, my father is working in the Philippines with a local contract and so our funds are limited.</p>

<p>How realistic is it that schools will give out full scholarships? I have a friend who got a full scholarship but was asked to show proof that he had $6000 in case of an emergency. Other than that, he would have gotten a full ride.</p>

<p>I also know someone who is from the US and he says that it’s easy to get them from state universities and small colleges.</p>

<p>My understanding about this whole thing is kind of vague because in Belgium, there are no scholarships and every school has a tuition of 1500 euro so it’s pretty cheap. The only problem is with the cost of living in Belgium.</p>

<p>Any opinions about full scholarships? Thanks in advance</p>

2

<p>Full scholarships are NOT easy to get, even for American citizens. I understand it is even more difficult for those from other countries. State universities, in particular, rarely give full scholarships, especially if you are not a resident of that state. My son is going to college out of state, and it is very expensive. I WISH full scholarships were easy to get!</p>

3

<p>Many state schools do have good merit scholarships, but they are usually used to attract the best students from within the state. I do not know of any that offer full rides to international students, or even to residents of other states.</p>

<p>MIT, Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Williams and Middlebury all offer need-blind admissions to foreign students and at least a couple of these (MIT and Princeton) have very good undergrad composition programs. Unfortunately, these are some of the most highly selective schools in the country and you will need to have extraordinary credentials to be considered.</p>

<p>Other schools that offer a decent amount of aid to international students and also have a good music school or department include DePaul, DePauw, Northwestern, Oberlin and Vanderbilt. None of them are easy admits and all of them would probably expect that you would pay at least some part of the cost.</p>

<p>Curtis Institute in Philadelphia offers free tuition for all accepted students, but they are an even harder admit than MIT or Princeton and you are still responsible for living expenses which could easily reach 10,000 euro per year.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

4

<p>I don’t know about other states but I have known several students who have gotten full rides to SUNY (State University of NY) schools. In one family I know 2 of the daughters were given full tuition plus room and board. One was for Potsdam and one was for Binghamton. In our school’s graduating senior class this year there was one boy who received a full tuition award from Buffalo State. So at the SUNY schools it does happen. However, all of these kids are state residents and even though they are stellar students in our district they are probably pretty average compared to most candidates. </p>

<p>BTW, the girl who got the free ride to Potsdam ended up being a music ed major at Crane. I know the family well and this girl never took private lessons (flute player), never attended a camp nor did she even make it to All State. Considering the level of competition at Crane (especially for flute) that is really saying something. I do believe though that her scholarship was academic. She was the valedictorian of her HS class and was on the waiting list for the scholarship at first but only received it when someone else turned theirs down. HTH…</p>

5

<p>You have also stated that you will be seeking to enter a bachelor’s program in the same discipline (composition) in which you already have a bachelor’s degree. This would in all probability further limit the willingness of any school to provide additional undergrad funding.</p>

<p>You might want to consider pursuing a Master’s degree in composition instead. This too may indeed be a tough admit, as you would be competing for spots at top schools against students with top credentials.</p>

<p>For information purposes, Juilliard has been known to give scholarships and aid to international students. </p>

<p>The reality is that the level of competition is fierce, the top institutions have high selection standards, and as others have said, full tuition scholarships are rare. Full ride scholarships are even rarer. Many of the schools mentioned will not waive the in person audition requirement, so plan on audition travel expenses.</p>

<p>My son was lucky enough to audition his way into a full tuitition scholarship as an undergrad. However, this was for the 4th & 5th years of a five year program; prior to that his award had been 50% tuition. Our only other knowledge of a full ride was a violinist friend who received a full tuition scholarship based on his audition to a top school, but he was a foster kid, and therefore a ward of the state, who provided the balance of his funding. </p>

<p>If you hold Belgian citizenship, I would urge you to investigate undergrad/grad options within your country and possibly within the EU, as there may be some reciprocal agreements for advanced studies and some fine conservatories.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

6

<p>Violadad has some very good points. There are quite a few good schools within the European Union. I would expect you to have much better chances there. The Mozarteum (which is only grad school), or the Royal Conservatory in London, or many others.</p>

<p>Since you already have an undergraduate degree, I wonder if you might look at graduate schools. It is possible to get grad school funded via fellowships or teaching assistantships. </p>

<p>I don’t remember whether this is for composition majors too, but I believe Curtis musicians must be under 21 when they apply. If you already have a college degree, then you are probably older than that.</p>

<p>Even American students face a conundrum concerning scholarships. The better you are in their pool of applicants, the more money the school offers you, so you tend to get the best money from the weakest school on your list. If you choose to attend a school that can really stretch you, your chances of being the “best” - in terms of winning the limited scholarships - is lower.</p>

7

<p>The age limit varies by department at Curtis. Composers and conductors must be under 28. Singers must be under 25 for undergraduate and under 27 for graduate degrees. Harpsichordists, organists, violists, bassists and harpists must be under 23. Everyone else must be under 21.</p>

8

<p>Why not start sending out letters of inquiry (with your compositions and recommendations) to lots of state colleges, universities and even private schools here in the U.S., as well as abroad? I agree with everyone else here that since you already have a Bachelor’s Degree, why would you back-track? Top programs (USC, Julliard, etc) might be out of your league for full scholarships, but if you can get into a small, lesser known program and really prove yourself, then set your goals for a top school after that. Just take it a step at a time. You would be amazed at how many schools are in the U.S., and they need freshman theory teachers, for example. So if you are gifted, there’s a place for you. Good Luck!</p>

9

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<p>Not wishing to hijack the thread…but the performance standard for music education majors is very different than for performance majors. Most music ed majors also have to interview and this portion of their application process is weighed very heavily. Also, she might have been a strong flute player that year despite not having taken private lessons. Being in All State is not particularly indicative of relative talent.</p>

10

<p>“Not wishing to hijack the thread…but the performance standard for music education majors is very different than for performance majors. Most music ed majors also have to interview and this portion of their application process is weighed very heavily. Also, she might have been a strong flute player that year despite not having taken private lessons. Being in All State is not particularly indicative of relative talent.”</p>

<p>Yes, I have heard this over and over again. Sorry, but I am pretty proud of my All State daughter. She is the first from our school in over 10 years and 1 of only 2 in our county this past year. That was for horn and this year she scored high enough on her voice to be in consideration for All State for that so you will have to excuse me but I think she is pretty talented. Ofc I am her mother and you do not know her nor have you ever heard her play. But I would assume that out of the many students selected for All State most of their mothers do think they are talented too.</p>

<p>I only mentioned that the girl receiving the full scholarship to Crane never attended an All State, camp, or private lesson bc many people like to tell me over and over again how tough Crane is to get into and how even for music ed I NEED to be putting every last dime I have into camps and lessons. Apparently not for everyone and yes with Music Ed interview and scholastic record do count but I know a couple of people who have been rejected from Ithaca but got into Crane (including this same girl). </p>

<p>And again, thank you for reiterating for the 100th time that performance majors look down on ed majors. Did anyone ever think that Ed majors just want to come out of school with some reliable job skills? Even the best of music performance majors have a tough time landing jobs post graduation.</p>

11

<p>Momof3- I just want to interject a couple of my perceptions as a parent of a performance/ed dual major regarding your last post.</p>

<p>I don’t see Thumper1’s post as being directed at you personally, or the kid in question. I see it pretty much as a statement of fact, particularly within the context of a fairly large geographic area that has numerous opportunities for kids to study with world class musicians. Many of these kids are not auditioning for All States because they are devoting their practice time to pieces for higher level competitons, many that offer substantial monetary awards or recognitions. The All-State talent pool is diluted by this factor to some degree. What degree? I have no idea what percentage, but in the case of New England, I’ll bet the ranch that the dilution rate is far greater than in Montana or Idaho. </p>

<p>All-State is of course a feather in anyone’s cap. Does it mean superior musical talent? Yes, but within that year’s pool of applicants only, and then tempered by the makeup of the specific ajudicating panel for that year. Making it four years, or three years or two years in a row is a better indicator of relative talent. I still tip my hat to any kid that makes it in.</p>

<p>Crane is a good school. Period. It has a national rep for providing top notch music ed majors. I don’t think anyone is disputing that.</p>

<p>Regards money and music training, as a parent you have to determine how much financial resource you can reasonably contribute to a child’s talent.
I never sent my son to anything that I had to pay full tuition for… we simply could not afford it. Did I get him the best local private instruction possible? Yes, but I did not put him on the train every Saturday to Juilliard. If I did, we wouldn’t have eaten.</p>

<p>I spent hours researching high quality/big name faculty/ programs and festivals where he could attend on full scholarship. It would cost me airfare, rail transport, possibly food. It was up to him to apply on time. If he didn’t, it was his loss, not mine. But I did give him every opportunity that was financially viable to us as a family.</p>

<p>The audition/interview/acceptance process at any school can be capricious, and is often the result of just having a bad day, or an extremely talented applicant pool. You can get into Juilliard, but not be accepted at Eastman, or Ithaca, or Crane. It happens. Look at this year’s Master List of Acceptences/Rejections.</p>

<p>Do performance majors look down on music ed majors? Do soloists have a lesser opinion of orchestral or ensemble players? Do violinists look down on violists? Do Curtis grads denigrate those with degrees from Juilliard, or NEC, or CIM? Are people racist? Homophobic?</p>

<p>Of course the answer is yes. People are people. Perhaps our children’s children will encounter a more accepting world. One can only hope.</p>

<p>And of course, there are many highly qualified performers un or underemployed. Many of them teach our children. For that I’m very grateful.</p>

12

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<p>This is not what I said, nor is it what I meant. And I did not mean to offend you re: your own daughter’s performance in All State. </p>

<p>I agree with others. Crane is a very fine school with a notable reputation. </p>

<p>And NO you do not have to spend money on camps and such for a child to be successful at majoring in music. The reality is that the student needs to be the one to drive their success in any field and that includes music.</p>

<p>Sorry to have offended you. But that was not the intention of my post.</p>

13

<p>I don’t know anything at all about music ed or Crane. I have great respect for music teachers. </p>

<p>I will say, however, that those students who have had the experiences of top notch teachers, music camps, prep programs, etc. are typically in an altogether different place musically than the students who have not had those same opportunities, as long as there is talent and ambition there to begin with.</p>

<p>The further we go in this process, the more obvious this is to me. So, maybe some kids do advance to coveted schools without any of the above, but it certainly is a surer route for those who have had some of the other open doors.</p>

14

<p>The All State program varies from state to state. In Georgia it is highly competitive; in other states it is less so. So colleges do tend to evaluate that accomplishment only in light of other accomplishments. It means the kid can play his instrument, and probably pretty well. How much it matters depends a lot on what schools you’re looking at. Think of it as a National Honor Society for musicians – NHS means your kid is smart and does well in school – it doesn’t automatically guarantee an Ivy admit.</p>

<p>Music is a competitive field, and it is so hard for us parents to watch our kids be subjected over and over to the evaluation process. It does make us a little bit defensive sometimes. </p>

<p>As far as music ed being “looked down upon” - I’ve seen it (and felt it) both ways. The worst teachers my kids have had at school have happened to be teachers who wanted to be performers but didn’t make it for some reason or another, and “had” to teach for lack of options. One teacher in particular, resents my S2’s successes, and spent the past year trying to make my D feel very inferior. On the other hand, the very best teachers - including the one who started my S2 on horn - are those who always wanted to be music teachers, and work hard to help their students excell. Thank God for them.</p>

<p>At my D’s college, music ed majors have a lot more rigorous schedule than my D. My D has more private music lessons, but she won’t have the ed classes, the marching band, or the student teaching. She will probably end up being a better performer - after all, that’s her major. So I can see that most of the time, the music teacher’s performance level on a single instrument is going to be inferior. That’s a generalization, of course, but it stands to reason.</p>

15

<p>All State programs also vary from instrument to instrument. I have seen cases where All State groups in New Jersey, where auditions are usually very competitive, got no applicants on certain instruments (harp and contrabassoon come to mind) during the regular auditions and then put out word that they would accept anyone who felt that they could play the part and show up for all of the rehearsals. Conversely, I have known some talented kids who did not make the cut because they happened to audition on clarinet, flute or violin along with a lot of other talented kids.</p>

16

<p>Just to outline and overview the All-State selection process, (at least in Connecticut) from both sides of the audition screen, I offer up some comments and observations my son has made over the last few years.</p>

<p>State is split into four geographic regions, each holding their own audition for a “regional” all state orchestra. Scoring is done against a statewide standard of criteria governed by the music educators association. </p>

<p>Prior to the past few years, the top scorers in each region were chosen against a preset cut-off score and designated All-State. Recently, they have instituted a seperate All State audition. In theory, you can now make All-State without having placed regionally, or been regional principal and not make All-State at all.</p>

<p>This process seems fairer if you blew your regional audition, yet hurts if you blew your seperate All-State audition.</p>

<p>But for those applying for college requiring audition, it’s one more audition learning experience.</p>

<p>Each adjudication panel is made up of “volunteers” who are paid a small stipend and given a free lunch. Each region must provide their own adjudicators for each orchestral section drawn from the ranks of music educators… active and retired, public and private, as well as a good representation of college music undergrads & grads, both performance and music ed. Often there are outright pleas to fill an adjudicator table.</p>

<p>Some of these ajudicators hold MENC certification, some do not. Those with certification are paid a higher stipend.</p>

<p>As a participant, my son made All-State the three years he auditioned. Each year he played, there were conspicuous absences because of those who did not audition well. Each year, there were surprises and highly talented players added. </p>

<p>He’s been lowly ranked by easy judges, and highly ranked by tough judges.</p>

<p>Each year, there were a few that probably should not have been selected because of lack of musicianship. To the best of his knowledge, there is no quota of participants from each region.</p>

<p>He is a MENC certified adjudicator. He’s sat on both regional and all state panels, as well as for middle school honors orchestra selection.</p>

<p>He does not enjoy sitting as an adjudicator. Yet, he does it every year unless he has a conflicting gig. </p>

<p>I’ve asked him is it fair?</p>

<p>“Dad, it’s an audition. It’s a crapshoot.” </p>

<p>Why do you do it?</p>

<p>“Because I want to give these kids the same opportunity and recognition I felt.”</p>

17

<p>Some states do have “quotas.” DD was best Eb clarinet one year, but it wasn’t her district’s “turn.” Regardless, that being said, it still is a “feather in the cap.”</p>

<p>Violason has be best perspective with “Dad, it’s an audition. It’s a crapshoot.” DD has always been pleased with audtions when she felt she was adequately prepared and did her best, and upset when she didn’t have her best day, regardless of the outcome of the audition. That’s the only way to handle this business, IMHO</p>

18

<p>In New York, students also audition in their region. It is based on a score out of a 100, and a lot of the time you need a 100. However, only juniors and seniors are eligible to make all-state, so that alone makes it defferent. I know some freshmen who played better than some of the kids at all-state the year I was there. Also, the region you are from comes into play, if a person is from an underrepresented zone, they may have a better chance of making it in. I made first chair the year I was in it, but the next year did not make it at all. Sometimes it does come down to the mood of the judge you have. Some judges, for instance, do not believe in giving 100’s, they say no one is perfect. Of course that puts the people who have that judge at a disadvantage. That is not to say that the kids who make all-state are not talented, they are, but it does not mean that there are not other kids just as talented who did not make it.</p>

<p>Also, regarding the need for expensive camps and other programs. I personally do not believe they are necessary, nor could I have ever afforded them if I wanted them. Yes my instrument is the best possible, but I worked after school to pay for it. And yes, I had private lessons, but helped pay for those as well. There were times I wondered if those programs would have made a difference, sometimes I really wished I could afford them. However, looking back on it as someone who as finally finished the college audition process, I realize it would not have. I still got into Crane, Eastman, and Ithaca. And for me, it really all came down to the auditon and teacher recommendations. Not one prson cared about All-State, NYSBDA, Area All-State etc. I, like previous posters have stated, believe that it comes down to the drive of the student.</p>

<p>And as for the full scholarships, I know Potsdam gives out five each year covering room and board and tuition. I’m also pretty positive that they also offer any accepted international students full room and board, but not tuition.
They also have other academic scholarships from $1500-$4000 and a few music scholarships, but I don’t think international students are eligible for those.</p>

19

<p>We live in New York state. This is taken directly from the NYSSMA website:</p>

<p>"The All-State experience begins with a music educator, his or her student and an accompanist spending countless hours preparing a NYSSMA Level VI solo which must be selected from repertoire lists in the current manual. Last spring, over 6,500 sophomores and juniors from across the state of New York prepared for All-State evaluations in the hope of being selected. New York State is divided into 15 regional zones by NYSSMA. These zones represent geographic areas within the state and also take into account the student populations within these zones. Last year, 43 All-State audition sites were scheduled in schools throughout the state. The All-State selection “process” begins with the solo being evaluated by a NYSSMA Certified All-State adjudicator at one of these designated sites. All-State adjudicators are responsible for evaluating every All-State solo of the same instrument or voice part. At the conclusion of the festival, the All-State adjudicators create a rank ordered proficiency list of all students being recommended. Every student who earns a score of 98-100 must be recommended. The “process” continues with the adjudicator ranking every recommended student by score first, with the 100’s ahead of the 99’s etc. If there are multiple students with the same qualifying score, the adjudicator must list those students in a proficiency order based on his or her evaluation of all performances. This year over 2400 students received scores of 98 or higher and were recommended for All-State consideration. At the end of the festival the All-State adjudicator gives their completed paperwork to the NYSSMA Zone Representative who then matches the adjudication sheet with the student’s completed application form and forwards them, along with the proficiency sheet to the appropriate All-State Chairperson.</p>

<p>Late in June, the “process” continues when selection committees are convened. The committees are made up of NYSSMA members from virtually every zone in the state. These committee members are charged with the monumental task of sorting through the proficiency lists from every festival and compiling a statewide master proficiency list for each instrument and voice part. Numerical scores and ranking on the local proficiency sheet are of primary importance in developing the master proficiency lists. After all recommended candidates are sorted numerically, a number of other factors are used in determining the final placement of students on the master proficiency list. The All-State Selection Committee reviews (in no specific priority): member school music teacher recommendations, adjudicator recommendations, the candidate’s previous NYSSMA Solo ratings, grade in school, zone representation, participation in the previous year’s All-State, and participation in other performing organizations. In the process of developing the master proficiency list, no qualified candidate on a local proficiency list may be passed over for another student on that list. In addition, committee members are instructed that all music literature from the NYSSMA Manual Level VI repertoire lists must be given equal consideration in the candidate selection process."</p>

<p>Now, I remember reading on the NYSSMA site (and yes, their members are MENC members as well) that of the 6500 auditions last spring there were roughly a little less than 300 French Horn Solos, around 90 or so of which were up for consideration for All State (98 or above on solo including sight reading). Of those 90 or so only 29 horns were selected and my D was one.</p>

<p>Now that is not saying that the kids with expensive teachers and educations did or did not audition. I can only tell you that to look at the program the vast majority were from urban areas and particularly from the greater NYC area schools including quite a few students overall from performing arts high schools. My D has had only 1 private lesson in her life and has never attended a camp, clinic, or anything of the like. I find her accomplishments to be astounding in the face of these facts. Many of her peers at All State have had excellent musical educations, sat in Youth Orchestras, and attended many of the finest camps. </p>

<p>Whatever the case it is wrong to generalize. To say that comment was not directed at me or my child is also incorrect. The comment about being selected for All State does not mean you have talent was in effect directed at all 900 students selected for NYSSMA All State last year, this year, and for all other All States now and in the future. </p>

<p>I have in the past received so much wonderful help and information from the parents on this board. Shennie, Binx, and BassDad have been of particular help and have offered up so much of their experience to me and everyone without being elitist when they have every right to be. I just feel badly that my D’s experience and accomplishments aren’t up to snuff for one person. My comments about the girl who attended Crane on a full scholarship were only to illustrate that an expensive musical education is not the end all and be all to getting a good college musical education or scholarships. </p>

<p>And my D will probably end up attending a SUNY school.</p>

20

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<p>Actually it’s sort of like this. In CT only the top scorers on each instrument for each region are allowed to audition for All State. SO…if you blow your regional audition, you are done for the year. In the past, as noted, the All State players were selected from the regional scores. Trouble was that each region had different criteria…and the regional festivals had different instrumentation, etc. So…now, the top scorers on the regional auditons (who would all have been in ensembles in their region too) are allowed to audition for All State in CT. The All State auditions are uniform, same pieces, same day, same adjudicators. The students for All State are selected from the All State auditions. AND kids who do fabulous regional auditions have been knows to totally screw up their All State Auditions. E.g. DD (not a music major) was the principal oboe in the orchestra in our region. She was second oboe in the band for All State (didn’t play a particularly good audition).</p>