<p>I think the rec letter is something similar to housekeeping - nobody notices, unless it's bad. I do believe a bad rec, or a mediocre one, can raise flags.</p>
<p>I also think they are used by teachers when making studio assignments. They look to see if you've studied with a known teacher and what they are saying about you. It certainly can make a difference if the teacher at the conservatory knows the private teacher.</p>
<p>No school asked for a hs music teacher rec. Sometimes an orchestral conductor, always the private instructor. We also used my son's theory/composition teacher for additional recs since he has done an IB in music and she knows him well from that perspective.</p>
<p>My son included a recommendation from his high school director, because he knew him in a number of different capacities, and could speak to his skills and talents across genres (jazz, classical, accompaniment) and such, which no one else could. He also had instrument specific recommendations from two private teachers. We are very fortunate to have a well supported music department, and a very supportive set of music teachers. I feel for those of you whose kids do not have this, because I do not know if my son would be on his current trajectory without this program and these teachers.</p>
<p>Who knows if these recommendations made a difference? I only read one of the three (from the school director), but I think it is all about the audition anyway too. The recommendations, grades etc. seem to provide the tipping point only.</p>
<p>Binx - yes, I am sure. (or I would have never said it.) We would have never asked the HS teacher for a recommendation because we had no idea how it would turn out. I can go back and check the files to see exactly which schools, if you want. She applied to Belmont, Tennessee-Knoxville, South Carolina, Middle Tennessee, Maryland, and Towson. I would agree that recommendations for music are not that big of a deal. It is the audition.</p>
<p>I disagree that a HS band teacher would not be knowledgeable (after four years they should without a doubt know their students' abilities) or respected by a college music department. Many of the really good ones have a lot of connections with college music departments, especially at state schools. I know we have an excellent choral music teacher in our county. Her students have sung at many big events and even at the White House. She speaks with college music departments all the time on behalf of her students. I cannot imagine a music department not valuing what she says. I know she attended a conservatory her first two years...said it was too intense and too far from home. She came home and graduated from Maryland.</p>
<p>I think the private music teacher's recommendation will probably be more valued. My D's first private teacher was an elementary band teacher if she had stuck with her through high school would it have meant as much as her private teacher in HS, who was principal flute in the US Air Force band? Probably not. </p>
<p>I'm sorry...I am just very defensive of public school teachers...at least the good ones.</p>
<p>I've mentioned it before, but son used recs from his hs orchestra director, his hs music department head, his private instructor, his chamber coach, and his youth orchestra director. Each knew him in a slightly different capacity, and each had valid insights as to his strengths, not only music specific, but in leadership, volunteer, and other activities.</p>
<p>In all his apps, the process involved admits both academically and musically, plus he was a dual degree performance/ed major. He knew exactly what each had written, and he intermixed use of the appropriate recs to support his essays and supplemental apps and thus tailored the apps to each school's format.</p>
<p>For new parents that might not know....</p>
<p>D used a rec from her private teacher and two recs from academic teachers. No one at any time asked for the high school choir teacher rec. We realized that this would be ok after D attended Tanglewood and they drilled it into them that college music programs or schools do not care if you have been in school choir. As I talked about before, D's hs choir teacher was very negative and it was best to separate from the school program. Instead, D sang in community choirs. D was accepted to 3 top voice programs and the only music rec she sent was that of her private teacher.</p>
<p>For a performance major, reference from private teacher, pedagogical lineage, trial lessons, and audition itself tell all. However, a music education applicant might benefit from a recommendation from ensemble director regarding how musician functioned in the ensemble.</p>
<p>Many top instrumentalists (don't know voice or composition) have been homeschooled before attending top schools. Obviously no High School recs! </p>
<p>Although not homeschooled, S was not involved in school music programs except as a pianist - we're not elitist, it's just that his school had no appropriate string ensemble. He did not include any HS music teacher recs although his counselor rec commented on his piano contributions to school events. I'm certain no music admissions dept. cared!</p>
<p>I'm sure that the usage and relative importance of recs depends on the particular school to which the student is applying. I've been told that amongst the conservatories, Music Admissions reviews them and flags potential problems, but that teachers probably won't see them. Hearsay? Who knows. As long as I know the recs aren't off-putting, I'm not going to worry. </p>
<p>Frankly, I wouldn't have expected S's private teacher (of 7 years) to write a glowing review with promises of stupendous talent and tremendous potential. This teacher's taught too many very talented students who win major competitions and gain admittance to outstanding schools to have mine stand out. For students lucky enough to come from one of the many fine pedagogues who have large studios of accomplished players, I'm sure the teacher's name stands by itself. I figured that if a teacher did see a "so so" rec on S, they would read appropriately between the lines. Didn't seem to hinder S's admissions options. (And I didn't read S's rec's before they went out - I have all the objective honesty I can deal with between my own two ears!!)</p>
<p>Along those lines, I know S's teacher discussed his playing and "weaknesses" (I perhaps could have done with less honesty) with at least one potential teacher before a trial lesson. That teacher later offered him a studio spot following his audition. </p>
<p>Finally, I know teachers who have the students themselves complete the rec forms and then turn it into the teacher for signature. Admissions depts have to know this, too.</p>
<p>When in doubt, spend the extra worry on audition preparation!!!!!</p>
<p>Dear Marylandmom,</p>
<p>You addressed the point I was making about not everyone living in an area where multiple out of hs playing opportunities are available. We were fortunate to have an excellent private teacher, but the playing opportunities were basically nill or a couple of songs now & then with the local amateur blues band. This was good performance experience (ie. having a beer-drinking audience member/dancer/fan lean on his shoulder during a solo!), but not very helpful musically. State competitions were about the only way to get some items on his resume and to go out of the community, but you had to be in hs band to do those. We pretty much gave up on state jazz competition because you had to be in marching band to audition, and S felt it took too much time from practice and brought him nothing musically. S ended up adding clarinet, flute & tuba (rather than sax) in these instances so he would at least be acquiring some new skill. </p>
<p>I agree we should support and reward excellent teachers, but what do we do about the not-good teachers who become obstacles? </p>
<p>As for the letters from hs teacher, I think one place we considered applying (but did not) required one (was it Julliard? Not sure.) We knew early on that Eastman required 3 letters from professional musicians. S had current and former sax teachers, but decided to add clarinet lessons 2 years ago to make sure he had the 3rd letter. Again, in a rural area it is not always obvious. </p>
<p>Great input from you all!</p>
<p>My son goes to a very small private international school. The music program is de minimum although he has participated and his music teacher loves him, but has taught him very little!</p>
<p>For teacher recommendations, he used his current teacher's everywhere. He had a mix of the following depending upon the school applied to, its requirements and his perception of what would help:</p>
<ul>
<li>former private teacher who could also speak to his participation in prep program (performance classes, chamber music, orch, etc) for 3 years of hs</li>
<li>a private teacher with whom he has done extensive coaching during the summer</li>
<li>his theory/music history/composition teacher who serves as both an academic and music source for him (he is completing a Higher Level Music IB)</li>
<li>his music teacher from school</li>
</ul>
<p>This is an interesting discussion. S (sophomore, piano) has the inverse situation: he's more likely to go to LAC than to conservatory, however his closest relationship by far is with the high school choral teacher. She has given him huge responsibilities and opportunities as an accompanist, and has also drawn him into vocal performance. They talk about music constantly and have a genuine friendship. No other teacher knows him as well as she does, and she thinks the world of him... pity to wonder if her recommendation wouldn't help much at either LAC or conservatory. :(</p>
<p>Marylandmom3 - I'm confused by the tone of your post. I have apparently unwittingly offended you. However, at least I know that you meant it that way, or you would not have said it. ;)</p>
<p>It was not my intent to challenge you. The "are you sure" part came because sometimes a school will ask for two recs, and many folks end up using private teacher and school teacher because that is all they have. I was asking to see if that might have been the case in your situation, and did not mean to imply I was questioning your character. I am not familiar with the schools your D applied to. It's interesting that all your D's schools required this, and neither of my kids ever ran into it. Great that this board can provide multiple experiences for others.</p>
<p>The "or I would have never said it" comment implies that you think a great deal more deeply about your posts than I do. I admit to squeezing in CC posts among other things throughout the day, and sometimes my quick notes come out not exactly the way I intended them. So I welcome the opportunity to clarify or correct. </p>
<p>For example, what I said:
[quote]
They sought out music folk who would be respected by the admissions dept, and who would be able to knowledgeably - and positively - speak to S or D's abilities. The HS teachers probably wouldn't have met one or the other of these criteria.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think you define "respected" as the opposite of dissing. Whereas I meant it as something the department would take as especially meaningful. I do not believe that any music department would disparage high school music teachers for no reason. I was speaking to my own kids' situation, where the HS teachers either did not know my kid well (my D only attended the HS one year and was basically ignored - see previous posts) or did not write well. The HS band director is a great guy. His letters are generally two or three sentences long, with a generic - "yes, I taught him, he's great." And I suspect he would write the same letter for every kid who requested one. If two kids applied to the same school, the school would likely get identical letters, and would therefore not respect them.</p>
<p>I'm happy that your D's teachers are everything you could want. Count your blessings!</p>
<p>Tango14 - Juilliard requires (or did 4 years ago) a letter from a HS English (or perhaps "humanities" - in the interest of accuracy) teacher. S did not submit anything else. They had a resume and the audition to tell them about talent. I'm guessing they got tired of reading "this kid is great" letters that could mean anything or nothing.</p>
<p>I have also heard - this was a while ago, and I can't remember what college it was - that noted when they got glowing reviews from teachers that did NOT match the actuality - and they remembered those teachers and discounted future letters from them.</p>
<p>binx,</p>
<p>Thx for clarifying about Julliard. I knew it was a letter needed from a hs teacher, and our experiences with 2 English teachers over 3 years was no better than in music. Plus the last one who would perhaps have been okay was on maternity leave at the wrong time.</p>
<p>How to determine your child’s ability? Good question.
My son, (jazz studies - drum set) started playing music rather late (8th grade) and only decided to major in music and the end of his junior year. His high school music instructor was very good, but in a rather large department with a heavy emphasis on concert percussion, our son wasn’t a “stand out” and received no special recognition. At summer music camp (soph/junior years) he was well regarded by the teachers, but did not receive any special awards for his musicianship. Because of a lack of recognition in these educational settings, there were times that I felt he might not have what it takes. His “style” was not flashy or technical - he prefers playing in a subtle, understated manner that doesn’t have people saying “wow - that drummers amazing!”
However, every year that he played, more local professionals called on him to jam, sit -in and even perform paid “gigs.” Many of them made comments about his ability to “play the music” with the appropriate dynamics, feel and accents! He was also very dedicated to practicing, spending several hours each day at it and really improving his “sight reading” skills along the way.
He had many “pro” mentors who gave him advice and opportunities. Last spring, his college auditions went very well and he was accepted to all three of his top choices with decent scholarships. This summer he’s been really ramping it up, playing nearly every night and getting plenty of recognition from the local jazz community. Now I’m thinking maybe he has what it takes, after all.</p>
<p>So, my recommendation to parents ? Give your child time to develop and see where their talents may take them. Encourage your kids to play in as many situations as possible. It should be evident that plenty of top musicians never attended the prestige conservatories or won major awards as a young musician… it is a long journey. Ultimately, to be a working professional simply requires that other musicians want to play with you and will hire you. Most importantly, that audiences appreciate what your doing and will pay to hear you perform.</p>
<p>Steve M wrote:</p>
<p>"So, my recommendation to parents ? Give your child time to develop and see where their talents may take them. Encourage your kids to play in as many situations as possible. "</p>
<p>I agree totally, the biggest thing we can do as parents is encourage the child, give them whatever opportunities we can, and let them find their level. We have tried to help our son but also have tried to stay out of the way as much as possible, it always disturbs us when we see young musicians (I am talking teen years) where the parents never got out of the suzuki school mode of things (talking violin here), where the parents are hovering over a 16 year old, taping every lesson,rehearsal and master class, constantly questioning the teacher and otherwise being a pain in the tail…at some point we have to let them spread their wings and find the wind (I love hoary old chestnuts like that <em>lol</em>)</p>
<p>"It should be evident that plenty of top musicians never attended the prestige conservatories or won major awards as a young musician… " I agree with that in principle, but I also want to caution that it depends on the type of music and so forth. I would argue that in the classical world that may not always be true, that where someone went to school can make a difference, that every musical genre has its own level. In classical, top musicians who didn’t go to a prestigious conservatory usually had something in its place, usually fantastic teachers, so it is hard to tell…</p>
<p>As far as the awards go, on that one I tend to agree, a lot of great musicians never entered a competition, were not members of all state, or never won one (Yo Yo Ma said he entered several competitions and finished dead last in many of them). There are some top flight pedagogues in violin who hate competitions, claiming they don’t judge performance but playing to win the competitions, and I think there is a lot of truth to that myself. </p>
<p>In Jazz, in other forms of music, or in composition, that can be very true. I think the key is that paths are not set in stone, that there are graduates from Juilliard and NEC and such that end up, frankly, not doing a hell of alot, and people who take the odd path and make it. </p>
<p>‘it is a long journey. Ultimately, to be a working professional simply requires that other musicians want to play with you and will hire you.’</p>
<p>That is so important, and it is something that is often overlooked, at least in the world my son is in. My son has several teachers, several of whom are both respected teachers and performers in the NY music world on the violin, and they both have stressed that sometimes the big programs work against the students best interests, that they promote this attitude of competition and of being elite, and then when these kids come out into the world looking for playing opportunities, they find out that they have problems getting along with other musicians because of attitude or lack of building interpersonal skills. Both of these are people who have been around more then a few years and they aren’t the only ones saying this,and both of them came out of top flite programs themselves. And given the nature of music, how tough it is to make it, a kid who thinks the sun rises and sets on themselves because they won some concerto competition or because they studied with X at school Y is going to be in for a big shock. And you have to be able to really hang in there and dog it, there is simply no other way. </p>
<p>'Most importantly, that audiences appreciate what your doing and will pay to hear you perform." Yep, and this is a big shocker in the violin world, there are a lot of students out there who gain virtuostic technique, who enter major competitions and win them, including ones like the tchaikovsky, and then are surprised to find themselves soloing with a small regional orchestra when they expected the Berlin Philharmonic. These kids have all the chops, but lack in many cases musicality, interpretive skills or most important, stage presence, and it is a rude awakening indeed. As a super high level pedagogue said in a master class I was in recently, hearing someone play a piece of music exactly as written, the same way time and again, might win competitions but as an audience member is excruciatingly boring. </p>
<p>I think what I will add is not only ability, but passion. I have seen a lot of pretty damn good musical kids, who achieved a fairly high level of ability, who had near zero passion for it, who were doing it for the wrong reasons or because they thought it was some sort of road to glory, and in every case that I was able to follow through on they crashed and burned. Given how brutal music is, how competitive and wearying and drawn out and disheartening and how much effort it takes often with so little reward, if someone doesn’t have passion for the music no matter the god given talent, they are going to find it really, really tough. Our son has displayed natural ability since he started playing, but if hadn’t shown the passion and dedication he has, especially in recent years, I would not be encouraging him in his pursuit of music, because I think without it he would be setting himself up to fail.</p>
<p>Hat – I agree with some of the advice given here – particularly the idea of getting an independent assessment from a private consultant(s), qualified to guage your child against the likely of pool of competiing students. Go to someone who lives far enough away that they will understand they wouldn’t be in the running for private instruction for your child (that way you can be sure there are no ulterior motives). Consider getting a couple of opinions. Go to someone with a solid track record for getting kids into good schools or someone who participates in schools’ audition panels.</p>
<p>Practice lessons at the schools at which your child hopes to apply are also helpful. One of the good things that might happen as a result of a practice lesson is that the professor might release the student from having to submit a pre-audition CD (for schools which normally require a preaudition cd – not all do). If the student is released from having to submit a pre-qualifying CD that’s pretty good indication that your child is at least in the running. If the professor encourages the student to stay in touch after the practice lesson that’s another indication, without asking the proverbial “chance me” type of question. Another indication is if the professor asks the student to let him/her know when the student is auditioning. </p>
<p>Practice lessons and feedback from consultants can really give students (and their parents) a great deal of confidence. Some professors may offer constructive criticism. This should not be taken as a negative. In most cases the professor is trying to demonstrate his or her teaching style and that he or she does in fact have something to offer the student. </p>
<p>If the professor releases the student from the CD requirement, the student should follow-up with the music school admissions office because sometimes, somehow, the exemption may be get lost somewhere between the prof’s lips and the student’s application folder. Trust but verify is a good slogan here.</p>
<p>Passion is huge. In my daughter’s case, she’s been singing forever. A friend has her on tape singing along -tunefully- to some pieces of “Happy Birthday” - for her <em>first</em> birthday (she’d only ever heard it a couple of times, plus whatever may have been on a tv in the house somewhere). As a preschooler she would sing anything (and everything) from “Beauty and the Beast” and “Aladdin”, all the time. Anywhere. In the bathroom at restaurants, for example - very entertaining to the other diners(!). Also as a preschooler - in the grocery store she once broke out into the John/Abigail Adams duet from “1776” where they sing about <em>really</em> missing each other. You haven’t lived 'til you’ve heard a 4-year-old sing “…and is my lover’s fav’rite pillow still firm and fair?..(snip)…Come soon as you can to my cloister; I’ve forgotten the feel of your hand…” While she became more discriminating later when it came to what to sing and where, the fact is she never stopped. A former high school classmate remarked on her MySpace on how he remembers her walking down the hall to this class or that, singing things he’d never heard of, constantly.</p>
<p>If you get the feeling that you’re pushing your kid, that may be a bad sign. If you feel you are holding on for dear life as they drag you along, that may be a sign the other direction. I have never had the passion and drive for performing that she has had since before she started school. I enjoy music-making greatly - but she lives for it. THAT’s the difference.</p>
<p>School-system competitions and ensembles can be an indicator, but they have to be taken with a grain of salt. First, it’s local in scope. Second, there may be other factors. We moved to a new school district, and the fact that there had been a particular girl who was “the” singer in this district made it so that my daughter’s hopes and ambitions were not warmly received, as the other girl’s mom was a long-time volunteer for the district, etc., etc.</p>
<p>Get as much exposure as you can, even in unrelated areas. In my kid’s case, we had skating competitions, where she learned stage presence, concentration, and focus while under bright lights and the scrutiny of an auditorium and a panel of judges. She made it to nationals there, an early demonstration of her ability to commit and follow through.</p>
<p>So I’d say get out there and do it do it do it. Get opinions from people in a position to judge on the level you’re aiming for and get several. Look for indicators of success, from competition results to a level of discipline and commitment at home. And apply to as many schools as you can afford, making sure you have a good selection of stretch, probably, and safety schools. You never know when a bad audition day will hit.</p>
<p>Above all, make sure it is their passion, not yours, and that they are generally happy with themselves no matter where the cards eventually fall. A strong mentally happy kid will make a good life and career for themselves, regardless of whether they get into a top school.</p>
<p>Soprano-</p>
<p>Nicely said! My wife and I were talking about this the other day, about our son and his future (quite natural,considering what wonderful but wacky, strange and challenging environment music is…) and we came to the same conclusion, that given his passion, his absolute joy and love for it/living for it, and what he demostrates when playing we feel confident that whatever he does he will be okay, because on top of everything else he has turned into a well balanced (well, okay, except for music <em>lol</em>), thoughtful and decent young man who this summer really seemed to find his place at the music festival he went to (we could tell, we would be im’ing or talking to him on the phone, and then suddenly he would disappear…later he would say “I can’t get any peace, people keep coming into my room”:). </p>
<p>I agree totally about other experiences, besides the musical things (going to performances, concerts, master classes, watching performers on tv, dvd and you tube), he also does things like an open mike night at a local music store, which has taught him about performing in ‘less traditional’ spaces and also about creating an audience:), plus a variety of other things.</p>
<p>With competitions and such I agree, you have to be careful about taking too much out of what happens there, depending on the competition and who is judging it it may not mean a lot. There are competitions out there where the judges are local music teachers who may not be that great a judge of high level talent, or who may have local bias as S.M said. I told the story in another post of my son getting an ASTA evaluation playing a piece of solo Bach. The teacher, who was basically a local violin teacher, told my son he was playing it all wrong, that you don’t play bach like that, but that with his enthusiasm she couldn’t knock him for the way he performed…meanwhile, he was performing it exactly like his teacher (who will be his teacher at Juilliard) taught him, and also got him praise at a master class he had a week after the evaluation, where he played it as far as he and I can tell, the same way…in other words, don’t let any thing determine that.Likewise, seating placement in orchestras or winning soloist competitions in youth orchestras may or may not mean something, sometimes those running the orchestras have their own ideas about things, giving high placement, for example, to teachers who they know and like, or because some of them get intimidated when faced with really talented kids <em>shrug</em>. And as I wrote above, Yo Yo Ma entered competitions and finished last in some of them, and he started playing the bach solo suites when he was 8!</p>
<p>What is a "good " auditon?</p>
<p>Hey lheffernan - start a new thread with this question. This one is really old and you will probably get really good feedback on a new thread. (Sorry cant help, son is a Jr. in high school).</p>