<p>When I started this thread it had nothing to do with whether parents had ability to pay, but more with other people's decision to get something they couldn't afford then expect other people to bail them out. There is nothing wrong with getting a degree from a state school or CC if that's what your budget could afford.</p>
<p>Oldfort, I agree with you.</p>
<p>In summary, I could never dictate who my children could or could not marry. I would point out the possible consequences of huge loans if the earning power is not really there. After that the decision is theirs to make.</p>
<p>I have found this thread very interesting because my S is in a similar situation. My H, S and I have worked very hard so that he will graduate debt free. We have made lifestyle choices with which many of you are familiar-scrimping, saving, and having priorities. My S is very thrifty and understands the advantages and optiions that being debt adverse bring.</p>
<p>His girlfriend of 1.5 years is a very nice girl. They are serious. Her money management and attitudes about money cause me concern. She works hard during the summer, yet borrows more than she needs for school and spends all of her earnings on clothes, shoes, Coach purses, etc. She receives an advertisement of 15% off from and a store and has to rush out to use it. She is very willing to add debt that is not necessary.</p>
<p>My now H and I both worked 35-40 hours to put ourselves through school and graduated ~$10,000 in debt in mid-80's. Every penny we made went to tuition. While I don't want someone to be that poor, I do think many of today's teenagers think of entirely too much as "needs" rather than "wants".</p>
<p>I work in finance. I've seen the same clients for 20 years. People rarely ever change how they handle money. The ability to save and handle money well has very little to do with income level--much less than one might think. I often work with several generations of the same family. Often the patterns are amazingly similar.</p>
<p>GF's spending is not my business. I have seen them discuss it, usually with her saying she <em>needed</em> everything she bought. S and I have discussed it, and he says he will control the money down the road. Oh lala--probably not the answer! I tell him you are marrying the person as is NOW--don't think <em>anything</em> will change.</p>
<p>We have all seen many marriages struggle, often due to financial issues. Life has enough struggles and challenges without constantly being at odds on this issue. I wouldn't dictate spouse choice, but I do think it's a legitimate concern.</p>
<p>Oldfort--how can you know by the fact that someone has large debt that they are expecting someone to "bail them out"?</p>
<p>As far as our family goes, no one here makes the kind of money, or is liable to, such that they could appear to be possible "bailing out" material, so that certainly would never be a concern for my kids.</p>
<p>"The ability to save and handle money well has very little to do with income level--much less than one might think."</p>
<p>My income was five times my wife's when we got married. She had five times as much in savings (I found out about that after we got married). My spending habits improved over time. In my 20s, my income rose so fast that I could always get out of spending problems by waiting for the next raise. The major downturn in the late 1980s and early 1990s cured me of that.</p>
<p>"S and I have discussed it, and he says he will control the money down the road."</p>
<p>A lot of young adults think that they can change the things that they don't like about their spouses over time. The young are so optimistic.</p>
<p>If they've built up these habits over a period of ten years, then it will most likely take a while to change them. I'm not saying that it can't be done but there can be a lot of bumps along the way. Differences are best ironed out before the marriage when there's an incentive to work things out.</p>
<p>"GF's spending is not my business."</p>
<p>It can become your business though if you have to TARP them in the future.</p>
<p>I read that the average marrying age is 28 for men and 26 for women. If your S/D is average, then by the time they tie the knot they will already know how their fiance has and will be able to handle their student debt, as they will have been living with it for 4-7 years already.</p>
<p>What are you afraid of? Are you afraid of the college loans or are you afraid of the family that overspent on college? </p>
<p>Not only did my husband marry me with my 100,000+ college and med school loans, he paid for the final semester of med school before we were married, we paid back the majority of the loans out of his earnings so that I could work part time while our children were young, he helped me take care of the same irresponsible father who did not pay back his share of my loans when my father ran out of his own money. </p>
<p>In short, my husband has been a prince, our children have no college debt and his parents and I have a fantastic relationship. We have no debt beyond a mortgage well below our means.</p>
<p>I think I was worth the risk. I have no idea if his parents warned him about me or my obviously undesirable family.</p>
<p>You'd rather your kid marry someone with an addiction to online poker than educational debt?</p>
<p>Get out into the real world. While it is true that education loans can cause some distress in real life, talk to any matrimonial lawyer.... the marriage breakers are substance abuse, gambling, infidelity, etc. All of these end up causing huge financial problems... but I'd be shocked to hear that marriages all over America are busting apart because she owes $100K to Swarthmore and he owes $150K to Cal Tech.</p>
<p>I've brought up my kids to believe that investing in their own human capital is the only investment which pays off in the long run- bear market, bull market, high interest rates, deflation, war, peace, you name it. If a family's resources requires taking out loans to make that investment... so be it. Better to invest in an education than in granite countertops, a Hummer, a sable coat. The countertops are worthless if you owe more on your house than you can sell it for and you end up walking away from your mortgage; the Hummer depreciates the day you drive it off the lot, plus who can afford to fill the tank; the fur coat can't be worn in public or on public transportation unless you want to provoke the ire of an animal activist....</p>
<p>And yet every day people go out and "invest" in these things (and don't get me started about the big screen tvs, hot tubs, etc.) In America, this is the stuff worth going into debt... but god forbid a kid takes out a loan to invest in him or herself.</p>
<p>We wish we could be in charge of them always! We cannot always be!</p>
<p>You might wish this. I definitely do not.</p>
<p>"I've brought up my kids to believe that investing in their own human capital is the only investment which pays off in the long run- bear market, bull market, high interest rates, deflation, war, peace, you name it. If a family's resources requires taking out loans to make that investment... so be it."</p>
<p>We've been in a decades-long inflationary environment where borrowing for producing assets works. If you tried this at the start of the depression, overpaying for something using leverage, I think the results would have been very disappointing.</p>
<p>World governments are trying to reflate. Hopefully they will be successful. When they are successful, it is usually not in every area.</p>
<p>"Better to invest in an education than in granite countertops, a Hummer, a sable coat. The countertops are worthless if you owe more on your house than you can sell it for and you end up walking away from your mortgage; the Hummer depreciates the day you drive it off the lot, plus who can afford to fill the tank; the fur coat can't be worn in public or on public transportation unless you want to provoke the ire of an animal activist...."</p>
<p>This is a strawman argument. If you had bought gold at $250, silver at $4, 30-year treasuries when interest rates were much, much higher, you'd be cruising along. One can easily overpay for education too. And you can certainly put it in a major that doesn't provide returns.</p>
<p>How about educating on trading, investing and the markets and using that education to generate income streams over the long haul? It doesn't take a college education to do that.</p>
<p>"And yet every day people go out and "invest" in these things (and don't get me started about the big screen tvs, hot tubs, etc.) In America, this is the stuff worth going into debt... but god forbid a kid takes out a loan to invest in him or herself."</p>
<p>The best trader I know is up 30% in his long-term portfolio from buying beaten down stocks that pay high dividends in October. For him, that's probably tens of millions of dollars. He posted his trades back then so that anyone watching him could do the same. I thought that he was nuts. Oh well. The education that he's received was learned in far less prosperous times and it's all tried and true stuff. It's also stuff that you don't learn in school. You could just learn it by listening to him. Unfortunately it is very difficult psychologically, to do what he does.</p>
<p>I had no debt when I graduated from college - the man I married did: college and law school. Never occurred to me to even worry about it. We both worked and put salaries in a joint account. Student loans were paid off in ten years. Had our first child after we had been married 9 1/2 years - and I stopped work to be a stay-at-home mom. That child (oldest of three) is now 22 and I have been out of the work force for over 23 years. Never occurred to him to worry about that when he married me. Things aren't always cut-and-dried. I'd say that things just work out - but realize that maybe we were just lucky. Certainly other things were of more concern to me than student loans - such as what type of man he was.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not only did my husband marry me with my 100,000+ college and med school loans,
[/quote]
Borrowing for medical school is not a problem -- those graduates are practically guaranteed a high income and full employment. A few top law schools may also be in this category. But these examples are not relevant because they are not typical. Most college grads with debt do not hold these degrees and do not have similar prospects for future earnings.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I've brought up my kids to believe that investing in their own human capital is the only investment which pays off in the long run
[/quote]
But the sad truth is that some kids actually end up worse off by investing in their own human capital. I started another thread that deals with this subject:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/628387-college-loan-slavery.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/628387-college-loan-slavery.html</a></p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don't see how this is anything but a contradiction. If it's true love, how can it possibly be considered?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Vossron, there's a big difference between true love and blind love. True love doesn't require you to chuck your brain out the window. If you make a conscious decision that what you feel for the other person is worth shouldering his or her debt, even if (s)he has a change of heart and leaves you holding the bag, then so be it -- plunge right in. But that should be a conscious decision.</p>
<p>I think it is appropriate for parents to give counsel, just as they would for a friend who was approaching a life changing decision.
I tried to get * my mothers* advice when I was in my early 20's and getting married. I was pregnant, but he also was an abusive alcoholic. However he put on a good show for my mom and is good looking, which is her main criteria. She knew about the drinking & the temper, but " she didn't want to interfere".
why wouldn't parents say something when they see danger signs?</p>
<p>why wouldn't parents say something when they see danger signs?</p>
<p>Because parents, like everyone else, are imperfect and subject to biases. We all just get to hope that we end up being better parents than the ones we had, even if ours were good.</p>
<p>gm, maybe we miss each other's point. If someone is in true love (I wasn't thinking of blind love either), making, as you say, conscious decisions, I don't see any way someone could wisely and legitimately think "But considering the college debt, I cannot marry this person with whom I otherwise have true love."</p>
<p>OTOH (and maybe you mean this), if someone had doubts because of college debt, it could be a legitimate signal that they aren't in true love.</p>
<p>"But considering the college debt, I cannot marry this person with whom I otherwise have true love."</p>
<p>But you could say that we need to talk about this and resolve it before getting married.</p>
<p>Would you marry someone that had been married three times before with children sprinkled in?</p>
<p>BCEagle91,</p>
<p>Dan Savage dealt with someone like that in one column. He basically asked, "Do you really expect to be the lucky fourth?"</p>
<p>
[quote]
Would you marry someone that had been married three times before with children sprinkled in?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>my step dad married my mom 17 years ago, he was husband number 3 and she had 5 kids. they have had their ups and downs like every couple but they have withstood the test of time. </p>
<p>When me and my husband met and married neither of us had education debt, because neither one of us had gone to college. But had other debts between the 2 of us that is less than 20,000. I am now going to college and lucky for us its a full ride for me but even if it wasn't hubby would support me every step of the way on going to college and I would do the same for him.</p>