How would you react to THIS?

<p>" savvy reader can tell the difference between a student and a mom from the way he or she writes"</p>

<p>That's not always completely true. My younger daughter is passionately in love with literary works of ancient Greece and Rome, so being a teenager, she's adopted some of the stylings found therein. She happens to be very good at it as well as a naturally talented writer, so for her it would be very hard to tell. She wrote a paper last year about ancient China that was truly spectacular (and I give her no slack) and the teacher (who saw each draft written in class and knew it was her independent work) showed it to another teacher who flat out refused to believe it was written by a 15-year old and suggested an investigation. She has a very mature and sophisticated literary voice. Now if you heard her actually speak, you'd probably want to pull her tongue out.</p>

<p>I did the FAFSA and that was it!</p>

<p>I think over involved parenting does our children a disservice and they will eventually find it much harder to transition to college and adult life.</p>

<p>One reason we had no weekend curfews starting jr yr in hs was to begin preparing him for college life. One reason we made him responsible for tuition costs(with a $76k college fund at his disposal) was to prepare him for adulthood and compromise choices he would have to be making.</p>

<p>Thus far the results have been spectacular IMHO.</p>

<p>I think the reason people blab about their unethical behavior regarding college essays or other things is because they want to believe that everyone else is doing the same thing or thay want the person they are blabbing to think so. Safety in numbers, so to speak.</p>

<p>A possible reply to people who confess to writing their kids essays might be "Gee, I heard they are very good at detecting a parent-written essay, I hope that doesn't impact junior's admissions chances". Then walk away.</p>

<p>My S had some friend trying to pay him to write a term paper in senior year of h.s. Astonishing request. And S didn't quite know how to take it. After all, it was a skill and someday he hopes to make a living that way...not shilling term papers or essays, but I mean to become a paid writer. My S is a good writer; the other kid has a business head and thought of it as sub-contracting, buying what he needed. </p>

<p>OH did we have a talk that night about ethics!!!! I equated it to thievery; the boy would be stealing and if my S abetted that, his complicity was just as bad. I thought back to my own h.s. days and I wouldn't have even been able to formulate such a concept, let alone know what to charge or be able pay for it. I couldn't imagine being on either side of that transaction. Kids today must have this thought in their culture. And if it's the parents planting that seed idea, by writing a college essay for them, well...I think it's extremely horrible, not just a wink or mild thing.</p>

<p>I thought the main task of being a parent IS to teach them right from wrong, not just how to get to a place of advantage.</p>

<p>What do I think about that? I'm going to try to forget I ever read your story, because it ties my stomach up in knots, that's what.</p>

<p>I never saw one word of any essay my son wrote, I do not know what he wrote about, I do not know what most of the essay questions were. I'm beginning to think he is somewhat rare.</p>

<p>I don't think we paid a big price by giving him his independence. He was accepted at 7/8 colleges, and attends a top private university on a full merit scholarship. More important, he knows how to do his own work, speak in his own voice, and make his own decisions.</p>

<p>I'm pretty surprised that so many of you seem to this it is commonplace for parents or others to write college app essays. Either my son's friends are an unusual lot, or I am really naive.</p>

<p>I think I stopped helping D1 with school work when she was in elementary ( I would help her type up her papers)
D2 I haven't been able to help much at all,ever, because she is stubborn and sensitive. Any raise of eyebrow or suggestion was met with ripping up of the paper, so I stay far away.
The thought of me helping to write or even edit essays is hysterical.
D1 helps * me* with grammar, not the other way around!
She also was admitted to all the schools she applied, which was a contrast to her cousin, whose mother edited her essays, but she was only admitted to two schools- her bottom choices. ( I think she even rewrote the teacher reqs)</p>

<p>I feel bad for the students whose parents are writing their applications.
That seems to be saying that the parents don't think the students could do a good enough job..ouch!</p>

<p>I did do the financial aid forms FAFSA & PROFILE but nothing else.</p>

<p>
[quote]
My younger daughter is passionately in love with literary works of ancient Greece and Rome, so being a teenager, she's adopted some of the stylings found therein.

[/quote]
zoosermom, my middle d did the same thing in high school. She's now a classics major in college. I remember her application essays as being very flowery and ornate. I surely wouldn't have written them that way!</p>

<p>I think adcoms must see an enormous range of writing styles and insights from teens. I imagine there must be some red flags that suggest heavy parental involvement. But I'm thinking of corranged, one of the very best writers on CC, parent or teen. She's a U Chicago student (possibly in her late teens?). I certainly think of her style as being completely adult - her command of the language is exceptionally sure and her perceptions are spot-on.</p>

<p>Well, now wait a minute. </p>

<p>Let me start by saying I did NOT write my daughter's essay nor did I fill out ANY part of the application. I felt she needed to handle all of that, including the logistical parts. But, as someone who has taught writing, I think we're being a little black and white here. Writing is all about re-writing, and a big part of that includes getting feedback from readers. I did read my daughter's essay (just as I am often asked at work to read letters of proposal, parts of grant applications, even party invitations), and I DID give her feedback. "You need a better transition here . . .This is pretty abstract and boring. Can you think of a specific, vivid example to back this up?" There is no way she would have let me change the gist of her essay or even most of her wording (she would make a face and say, "Right, Mom, like I would use that word.")</p>

<p>The whole essay thing has become problematic. With both the SAT and ACT requiring writing now, essays should be dropped -- or replaced with graded school papers.</p>

<p>"The whole essay thing has become problematic. With both the SAT and ACT requiring writing now, essays should be dropped -- or replaced with graded school papers."</p>

<p>Here, here. I agree completely.</p>

<p>It would be a lost opportunity, in my book, to drop the essay. Obviously, it's useless if a parent or some mercenary writes it, but if the kid writes it, as I think most still do, it gives a really nice little look into what makes them tick.</p>

<p>I do think it's fine to proofread and make suggestions.</p>

<p>"I do think it's fine to proofread and make suggestions."</p>

<p>I agree. I write a lot of things that matter. I never write something important without a second set of eyes seeing it -- in fact, it's important enough, I'll let my board (school organizations) look it over. We're a family of English majors -- my husband was editor of law review, etc. We all proofread when it's important. It's very hard to catch your own mistakes -- you can read something over and over again and never see a glaring error. If I was writing a resume, I'd want someone to look it over. It only makes sense when the stakes are high. That said, obviously the topic, the writing, etc. should be the kid's. But I don't think any college would suggest not getting something proofread. In fact, I am looking at a flyer from UCLA for "writing the personal statement" workshops and there is a workshop for students to bring drafts to for peer mentors to see -- it's mostly geared to transfer students. Essentially this is sanctioned proofreading and advising by the college itself. "Bring a rough draft/peer mentors will review the drafts" is what the flyer says.</p>

<p>Earlier in this thread someone mentioned the possibility that colleges are using the writing section of the SAT as a check against ghost-written application essays. There was a thread on cc not long ago that provided a link to a list of schools that say they are doing this. I'm sorry I cannot locate it now. However, if one accesses the Common Data Set for individual schools, there is a section that asks schools to list the manner in which the writing section is used. Some of them do indicate that they are comparing the essays with the SAT writing sections.</p>

<p>I'm guessing that adcom members have enough sense to understand that grammar and organization will not be perfect in a timed, on the spot, essay, and are not looking for identical quality. But perhaps this is an indication that some schools are very suspicious that the personal essays they are reading are very poor indicators of how well the applicant can actually write.</p>

<p>mimk6 - I completely agree with you regarding the proofreading. We've all seen on CC alone how easy it is for someone who's obviously very intelligent to make a typo, etc.</p>

<p>I do think it's difficult for many parents to proofread their child's essay for grammar, punctuation, etc. and not get emotionally enmeshed in the story, which is why I think having another adult proof it (particularly a teacher they admire and respect) might be better for some families. It would be much easier for me to proofread an anonymous essay than someone I know on a personal level.</p>

<p>I knew a kid in high school whose mother basically ghost-wrote most of the homework. Result: great GPA and admitted to UC Berkeley. The rest of the story: flunked out after freshman year, unable to do the work.</p>

<p>Picking up on the comment, "it's not all black-and-white" -- There are 3 ways I helped my kids write their essays, even though all are already fine writers:</p>

<p>Because they asked, I sat in the same room as S1 and S2 for moral support. It felt ridiculous and like babysitting. I did other paper work (lesson planning). This sounds crazy but they were very blocked over having to write about themselves personally. They pulled their hair. I asked, "what's so hard?" They read the questions, and then TOLD me (no writing) about 5 different ways they could answer each one. I listened to their main theme idea, and told them which 2 were dull but which 3 had potential. That gave them confidence to BEGIN writing. "Should I leave?" I asked. "No, stay, just sit on the bed and breathe, it's good moral support." I sat and wrote lesson plans for Grade One. I doubt anything I wrote contaminated their product, and I didn't watch what came onto the screen (sat differently). </p>

<p>After the first draft, I read it twice without comment. Then I pointed out all the places that made me say "wha???" to myself. If it made no sense logically, I said, "This makes no sense logically." If I thought a word was weak, I said, "That's a vague word; can you do better (but didn't suggest one)." I said, "That sentence is too long; break it up."</p>

<p>When ALL the books say, "Show your draft essay to an English teacher," I think that's exactly the kind of feedback a principled English teacher would give. I can do it just as well and am less busy than they are. </p>

<p>If S didn't agree with my comment, he ignored it. If you're asked to "comment" on an essay, that's not a subpoena to change something, it's up to the writer.</p>

<p>They wrote other drafts, ripping into their own drafts like lions. I didn't see the in-betweens and they didn't want to show them, either. When they said they had a final draft, usually some days later, I read it for punctuation, looking over their shoulder on the computer. Sometimes it was on an entirely new topic or to a different prompt.</p>

<p>I think this is very fair and I feel sorry for any kid who can't take theirs to a good writer or an English teacher for similar feedback.</p>

<p>I also can relate to parents who say their kid did it "all by themselves." My D
is a different personality, just as good a writer as the boys. Since I'd had that experience with S-1 I said the first night, "do you want me to sit near you when you get started?" and we began that way, each writing separate projects. Within a few minutes, she asked me to leave. It wasn't working for her to have my presence in the room. She showed me a final draft just before sending and I couldn't find any typos. So that sounds like the people who say their kids did it all by themselves. </p>

<p>I can also imagine if kids have real struggles writing anything, that more verbal brainstorming before they write would help get them off-the-mark. They often don't know WHICH of their experiences would make a good essay, but an adult can hear which is the more worthy topic and what could be a dead end. Sometimes the kid has to take a stab at the dead end, too, as in, "try a quick first draft and see (if the zoo topic can work, etc.)." I think that's different than a parent pointing to the bedroom door and saying, "Go and write, there's only 3 weeks left." A kid must struggle with it, but I think sometimes it's very hard for them to begin.</p>

<p>I stand by this and say that at all times the kid is iin charge of his work. I would not like to be thought less of because I sat in the room or opened my mouth to say "whaa?" WHen kids PM their essays on CC to a stranger parent, I think that's similar support.</p>

<p>My H has to assign 13-year-olds to write Bar or Bat Mitzvah speeches. At age 13 he specifically tells the parents TO work with the kids, talk over the topic,
and come up with an approach. Yes it's apparent from the first draft that comes in next whether the parent was heavy-handed by the body language of the kid in the office. At that point, it can be reframed as a group discussion so the kid goes off writing in a direction that is all his own. (And almost every kid needs to be reminded to thank people as part of a gracious speech.)</p>

<p>The SAT writing is a completely different form: thesis sentence on an objective topic, followed by one or two examples as evidence to support the thesis sentence, followed by a brief conclusion. It has NOTHING personal in it, unless it's a personal example for evidence which is one option and not always thought to be a good solution if you can come up with a literary character or history episode instead. </p>

<p>I think if a college admission officer just glanced at it, s/he could tell whether the writer was skilled or not, so that could discredit anyone who had their college personal essay ghost-written. But it's no substitute for the college essay, as it has a very different intention. If you can write for the SAT, you can presumably take an inclass exam, write a report in a timely way, discuss an idea in a seminar class, and these are all college-related skills. This does NOT tell the admissions officers anything about who the kid is who might move into Barrows Room #6 next year, and that's who they want to meet in the college personal essay. Not how Harriet Tubman demonstrates that freedom is a precious gift, which is about what the SAT writing section demonstrates.</p>

<p>My son showed his essay to me before sending it. It was well-written, very personal and detailed. His voice is sophisticated and I briefly wondered whether an adcom might suspect an adult wrote it but then I realized that wasn't an issue because the topic is one that every book about admissions essays recommends against! :D</p>

<p>They will probably catch on when she uses the phrase, "as I enter menopause..." Actually this is fraud.</p>

<p>Just as one of our students lied about being captain of this team and that team to get a prestigious scholarship. They read out her accomplishments when they presented it to her.....everyone was flabergasted and wanted to rat her out but didn't.</p>

<p>The original story was one extreme of the spectrum but there is a vast middle ground. There is a large continuum on the helping scale. For example, I know that in many English classes around here the 12th grade kids work on their college essays in class -- revisions, peer editing, feedback -- more than just proofreading. Some English teachers feel this is a "teaching moment" to teach how to write a narrative essay and it is. My kids never were in classes where this was done, but my point is that it is an advantage. It's not dishonest, no one is writing it for them, but it helps them to produce a better essay than the kid who has no resource like that. Additionally, I think it's important to remember that many students from low-income schools have access to mentoring programs that help them with the entire college application process, including the essay. My kid volunteers with one and has seen the essays her students are working on. Of course, she is not writing them but I'm sure she is giving them terrific feedback and that their essays will be much better as a result. Maybe this levels the playing field, but it is more than proofreading when there are entire programs available to prepare kids for college applications. I think those programs are needed, I am just pointing out that they offer writing mentoring. In addition, I wonder if guidance counselors in private schools look over essays and give feedback. Also, I'd like to point out that just because a student doesn't show their parents their essay, it doesn't mean they aren't showing their friends. I remember when my DD was a senior and everyone was sending her their essays for feedback because she was the writer in the group. No, she didn't write them but I imagine she gave feedback such as "It's working, it's not working, this part is good but this part is weak -- maybe rework this section." Look how many kids ask for feedback on this website alone. I never look at those threads so I don't know what kind of feedback they actually get but I am guessing it is more than "You had an extra period at the end of the last sentence." The fact is that the playing field is not level. Some kids are coming to the essay process with years of fabulous writing instruction, some are coming at it from schools where they are just trying to keep kids from dropping out. As writing goes, this post is not all that great, but since my future isn't hanging on it, I'll just hit the send button now:)</p>

<p>Great post,mimk6. A good reminder, imo, of what, as you say, is actually a continuum of amount and types of help with essays.</p>

<p>There is, though, I think an actual.... LINE. Which is crossed when a parent sits down to write essays because "her kid is too busy." Some would draw the line way earlier on your continuum - any help at all maybe, anything beyond noting a misplaced comma, ....</p>

<p>I'm thinking that virtually all of us who <em>don't</em> write the essays for our kids (or hire it done) would draw the line at that point.</p>