HS math: is calc a good idea?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Two of my children are math-oriented --- not geniuses, no sparks flying out of their heads, but they like math and I'd like to give them the background to pursue math-heavy fields, like engineering. </p>

<p>For example, my daughter will start seventh grade and Saxon Algebra 1 this year. On this schedule, she will get to calc by 11th grade. Is this a good idea? Should she pursue other math topics or curricula to 'round out' her mathematical thinking? Should she slow down? What have other parents done? She can't be the only kid who is a little bit ahead.</p>

<p>I should add that I had 3 terms of calculus for my MS (microbiology). It was fine -- I understood it -- but I never loved it. For me it was a means to an end (figuring out my data sets). Thus I would also welcome knowledgeable reviews of curricula or tutorials that help show what my dad sincerely called the 'beauty of mathematics'.</p>

<p>thank you in advance!</p>

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<p>Honestly, if she is good at math, drop the Saxon and go anywhere else (not Teaching Textbooks).</p>

<p>Chalkdust, MUS, BJU, Jacobs are all better. Horizons even has algebra now. My daughter used Jacobs for algebra and then went to a private home study program (accredited program because I got stuck on that back then) where they had her do AOP SOS, a program I never considered. Well, turns out, even AOP SOS is better than Saxon.</p>

<p>I used to tutor. I rarely tutor now, just because I have been busy and didn’t feel like it anymore. And whenever I faced someone with Saxon math background, I knew I had my work cut out. It is very rote learning. It does not teach critical thinking nor does it teach how to attack a problem from various directions. It has a lot of gaps. Most kids, when they finish the entire Saxon series, minus the calculus, still have to do College Algebra when they get to college. This is unacceptable. </p>

<p>My child who actually did the precal with MUS (a program that I never thought much of before) slid in to college Calculus at a top university with ease. She is taking the calculus over the summer and is earning an A and having no trouble keeping up. Yet, if you do all the math minus the calculus with Saxon, your child will still need to back up and repeat it in college. Many of the better schools see anything below calculus as remedial and won’t give credit for it.</p>

<p>So, consider a different program. Jacobs is one of the best, but can be difficult to teach. There are videos you can purchase to go along with Jacobs if you want, as well as many great online sources.</p>

<p>I will be using Horizon’s Algebra with my now 11 yr old. He is about a year from starting it. He is in pre-algebra this fall. I didn’t care for Horizons previously, but now I am really liking it. Perhaps I did not care for it because we had been using Singapore Math and Horizons at the same time and it was too much, so we picked Singapore. </p>

<p>I hope I have helped!!!</p>

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<p>Oh, and purple math has the best tutorials. Of course, everyone else mentions Khan Academy, but we always have defaulted to Purple math .com.</p>

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<p>You don’t need to answer this question today. If she does well in algebra and likes it, she can continue on the accelerated track. If she doesn’t there are plenty of ways to slow down. More if you are homeschooling than if you aren’t.</p>

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<p>If you do MUS, use the honors sections. It really goes above and beyond. Also, if Horizon’s does not work for us, we will be using MUS for the algebra. I do not have experience with Horizon’s algebra though. I have just been using it for the lower grades and then will be using it for pre-algebra this fall. Horizons did not used to have these levels when my older children went through.</p>

<p>Jacob’s is an excellent and thorough program. I have been told that Lial’s is great too, but never have used it. Larsen’s is popular with the WTM crowd too. And Chalkdust uses Larsens. I really think Chalkdust has excellent high school math. I have not viewed the videos though, just their books. I do not care for Videotext. I think they have made some changes, but for that price, why bother when there is so much better for less cost?</p>

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<p>My daughter took took 9th grade honors math in 8th grade ( algebra?), 10th grade honors math in 9th grade ( geometry) and 11th grade honors math this year as a sophomore ( trig). She is taking honors pre-calc in 11th grade and AP calc her senior year.</p>

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<p>Speaking as the parent of a D who likes, but does not love math, I don’t see any reason to “slow down” your D if she is doing well and enjoying the curriculum. It’s not extraordinarily unusual at selective colleges for students to have taken calculus in or by 11th grade.</p>

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<p>If your D is going to major in engineering, calculus will give her signficant boost in college admission. Most of the big engineering names actually require calculus for admission.</p>

<p>My DD did calculus BC her junior year, and is going to take multi-variable calculus this year. She is not even going to do engineering :)</p>

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<p>Most do not require calculus in high school for admission (their engineering degree programs are designed so that an entering frosh can start in calculus 1), although having calculus (or even more) in high school can be advantageous for an engineering major.</p>

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<p>My S1 did Alg. (7th gr.), Geom.(8th gr), Alg.II/Trig(9th gr.), Pre-Cal (9th gr), AP Calc.A/B(11th gr.), AP Stats(12th gr.)</p>

<p>Son was not a math genius but smart enough to get through it w/ A’s and B’s.
He made 4’s on the AP Calc. and Stats exams.</p>

<p>Some of his friends(all bright kids) who started on the same track in middle school hit a wall after Pre-Cal in 10th grade. AP Calc. was not in their future at that point so had to find other math classes to fulfill their four years of h.s. math courses.</p>

<p>As an aside, those same kids all went to college, took Calc. there and did fine. They just weren’t ready for it at 16.</p>

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<p>My non-math guy took Calc BC as a senior and got at least one semester credit for it. It’s good for his college gen ed requirements. You don’t have to love math to be accelerated, but I’d say if someone truly loathes it, then you might be looking at going sideways a bit. Probablility and statistics often get short shrift in the high school curriculum and many might find that more interesting than calculus and yet more calculus. (And I have argued in other threads that kids should take calculus because like Shakespeare or poetry - it’s a different and very beautiful way of thinking about numbers.)</p>

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<p>I agree that Saxon would be my very last choice for a student who likes and is good at math. I don’t hate it for students who dislike and struggle with math, though I know plenty of teachers who hate Saxon even for them.</p>

<p>I have changed my tune on calculus in high school in the last 15 years. I now think it’s a good idea for math- or science-oriented students. They often get better instruction and more time for the material to sink in than if they take it in college.</p>

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<p>Agree that Saxon won’t really help you see the “beauty of math” – many kids find it dull and rote. What about adding some problem solving into the mix? Mathcounts publishes a problem of the week on their website: mathcounts dot org and that is a perfect introduction to problem solving for a middle school student.</p>

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<p>I probably should have stated that many, instead of most, big engineering schools require calculus for admission, i.e. caltech, mudd, Princeton.</p>

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<p>Oh and wanted to add that my to-be 7th grader will be taking algebra this fall. He’s prepping this summer by doing some problems every day on alcumus (part of the art of problem solving – it feeds you problems to solve). But, he really likes it and is able to do it without nagging. </p>

<p>For him, the key is just to do 8-10 problems a day and not many more.</p>

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<p>By “big engineering schools”, do you exclude those like Stanford, Berkeley, CMU, Georgia Tech, UIUC, Purdue, Michigan, USC, Texas A&M, UT Austin, UCLA, etc.? While calculus in high school is helpful, it is not required at these schools.</p>

<p>Caltech, Harvey Mudd, Princeton, and WUStL are exceptions in this respect.</p>

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<p>Our district has dropped acceleration of more than one grade ahead. That puts the accelerated students in calc senior, which is enough. Why? The math department said the kids can learn how to do perform the calculations, but the vast majority of kids simply aren’t ready, developmentally, for the level of comprehension they would like to see. Got nothin g to do with intelligence or ability. </p>

<p>As long as your d gets to calculus by 12th grade, I’m sure she’ll be in great shape for admissions.</p>

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<p>There will be a few students who are good enough at math to do well two (or more) grades ahead of the normal sequence. From a school’s point of view, the task is to accommodate them without inducing tiger parents to try to over-accelerate other students for whom going more than one grade ahead is inappropriate.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, based on a lot of stories here, it seems that many schools either limit the top students and hold them back, or allow too much inappropriate pushing ahead by tiger parents (sometimes both, as evidenced by requiring the two grades ahead math students to take slow-pace calculus over two years).</p>

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<p>This may be a regional thing (we are from Chicago suburbs) but in our HS, the kids on the advanced math track take BC Calculus junior year. These are not the “geniuses, with sparks flying out of their heads” :slight_smile: THEY take BC Calculus freshman or sophomore year! So I do think calculus in high school is a good thing, to be competitive or even on track when the kids get to college, especially for STEM majors.</p>

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<ol>
<li> I agree with mathmom that you don’t have to be a brilliant math student to get to calculus by 11th grade. My daughter did that, and she basically hated math. Of course, she basically hated math, but I don’t think she would have hated it any less if she had gone more slowly.</li>
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<p>From what I remember of my own math education, I learned about a month or two worth of new material each year in 9th - 11th grades (after, it must be said, really good math classes in what we now call middle school). The pace was excruciatingly slow. And I DID get to calculus in 12th grade. I can’t imagine what it would have been like to be a decent math student and to go more slowly than that. If I had cared a whit about math, I would have been tearing my hair out.</p>

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<li> In my kids’ schools, the policy ordinarylives’ district adopted would have led to bloodshed in the halls. There are meaningful numbers of kids who are ready for calculus in 9th or 10th grade. Sure, the “vast majority” of kids aren’t, but that’s why you have different levels, different courses, different tracks, and a little flexibility. You need to educate the students actually in your school, and not try to pretend they are what statistics suggest they are most likely to be.</li>
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