HYPS - The Parents' Perspective

Parents Forum
21

<p>3.b Social Ambiance</p>

<p>So how about the statistics? Race first. I think these numbers were for the class of 2011.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Princeton
African-American 9%
Asian-American 13%
Hispanic 7%
Native American 1%
White 62%
International 9%</p></li>
<li><p>Harvard</p></li>
</ol>

<p>African-American 8%
Asian-American 18%
Hispanic 8%
Native American 1%
White 56%
International 9%</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Yale
African-American 8%
Asian-American 14%
Hispanic 7%
Native American 1%
White 62%
International 8%</p></li>
<li><p>Stanford
African-American 10%
Asian-American 24%
Hispanic 11%
Native American 2%
White 46%
International 6%</p></li>
</ol>

<p>As it turns out, yes, Princeton is somewhat more white than its peers, except Yale. Why? Harvard is less white because it admits a higher percentage of Asians. You may want to follow the case of Jian Li, who was rejected at Princeton and Harvard and accepted to Yale, attended Yale, sued Princeton for discrimination, and finally transferred to Harvard. The suit is not yet decided. Stanford is less white because it admits more of all non-whites. Princeton has been voted the #1 Best School for Hispanics by Hispanic Magazine, but only #23 for African Americans behind all three HYS by Black Enterprise. </p>

<p>Anecdotally, however, the school is very integrated within the ECs, i.e. newspaper, sports, dance clubs, singing groups, etc. My son's main criteria for a school was that it be racially diverse and not segmented. He is very very happy. However remember I can only report from the perspective of upper middle class white kids.</p>

22

<p>3.c Social Ambiance</p>

<p>What about income distribution, rich and poor and in-between and any visible impact?</p>

<p>The percentage of undergraduates at Princeton receiving Pell Grants is reported to be 8%. As comparison, Yale has 10%, Harvard has 12%, and Stanford has 13%, while UCLA has 38.1%. </p>

<p>Here is the breakdown of financial aid from the Princeton website for the class of 2011. 54% of the students in the class of 2011 received financial aid awards. It is possible that the fewer Princeton Pell Grants are related to Princeton’s reported highly generous financial aid policies, which for the class of 2011 was the most generous in the Ivy League if not the country, due to the elimination of loans as a component of the aid package. Harvard and Yale have since announced new policies, which I will leave to those parents to elucidate.</p>

<p>Admitted Students in the Class of 2011
Who Applied for Financial Aid </p>

<hr>

<p>Family income level |Applying for aid| Percent with financial need| Average grant of those eligible</p>

<hr>

<p>$00,000 – 39,999 193 100 $43,600
40,000 – 59,999 105 100 40,300
60,000 – 79,999 113 99 36,400
80,000 – 99,999 114 98 30,500
100,000 – 119,999 99 96 27,000
120,000 – 139,999 107 95 22,500
140,000 – 159,999 89 93 18,800
160,000 – 199,999 127 77 14,200
Over $200,000 191 30 13,100
Note: Approximately 75% of students from families with incomes above $160,000 who are eligible for grants have one or more siblings also attending college.</p>

23

<p>3.d Social Ambiance</p>

<p>And finally, beyond statistics again, what about the general environment beyond the eating clubs, how elitist is it? I will interpret myself – let’s say elitist means white, rich, somewhat stuffy and conventional, and trying to keep it that way. </p>

<p>The administration is making an enormous attempt to break down the stereotype of the elitist campus. Shirley Tilghman, the Canadian molecular biologist and single mother who is the President of Princeton, has said openly she is looking for more green-haired kids. The university is making large investments in the creative arts – guaranteed to work against conventionalism. The elimination of ED this past year was said to be in an attempt to allow kids without a huge support structure to apply to Princeton without thought of financial aid etc. The residential colleges are now four year optional, meaning kids no longer have to join eating clubs to have a substantial and comfortable community in which to eat decent meals junior and senior years. And yet, yes, Princeton is still a little bit whiter and richer than some might want it to be. The eating clubs do still create a competitive social moment that kids may have to navigate.</p>

<p>In short, Princeton is evolving. To revert to the even more anecdotal, my impression of Princeton kids, after almost four years as a parent, is that their main shared characteristic is how earnest they are. How sincere. How much they want to do well. How friendly they are. My impression of the institution and administration is that they are investing and strengthening Princeton’s enormous resources – creative, social, academic – all the while moving slowly away from Princeton’s The Other Side of Paradise heritage. But, as all the parents of kids in colleges where those kids are happy will tell you, have your kid visit and see for his or her self.</p>

24

<p>"It is possible that the fewer Princeton Pell Grants are related to Princeton’s reported highly generous financial aid policies, which for the class of 2011 was the most generous in the Ivy League if not the country, due to the elimination of loans as a component of the aid package."</p>

<p>That doesn't make much sense, unless you are arguing that Princeton is admitting lots of folks who would otherwise need small loans instead of folks with very large need. All schools (I know of no exceptions except Hillsdale) use Pell Grants as the first part of any high-need package. (Be awfully dumb if they didn't.)</p>

<p>It is clearly true that Princeton is both more diverse, and admitting more folks receiving aid than 8 years ago. It is less clear that they are admitting more "high need" applicants (or having them attend).</p>

25

<p>Alumother: I agree with your observations about Princeton. S1 is a junior and we have met dozens of his friends and hallmates; all are extremely down to earth and polite. He and most of his friends wound up going independent but a few joined eating clubs. His first two years were in Forbes, a really small double but a shared bathroom with just the adjoining single first year and a large two room suite (with bath) for three last year. New carpet last year (girls across the hall had mirror image with no carpet at all - go figure). Now he is in Spelman, the antithesis of Princeton architecture, yet his apartment is fabulous. Four singles, a kitchen, large bathroom, and large living/dining area. It does seem that the random room draws may not be so random after all, or at least that is his and others' theory. The worse one's dorm one year, the better room draw number he seems to receive the next year and vice-versa. I will say that the dorms are rather filthy and require a good deal of scrubbing (the windows and furniture drawers are especially beyond gross). </p>

<p>What he and we really like about the social scene at Princeton is that most of the drinking is confined to "the street" (Prospect St where all of the Eating Clubs are located). He feels comfortable going there when he wants, but also finds lots of things to do elsewhere on and off campus. Relieves much of the peer pressure.</p>

<p>Having the dinky (train) on campus and being so close to NYC has been a big part of his experience. The dorms offer trips to the Met, Broadway, etc for a nominal fee and he loves to just go with a friend and explore museums.</p>

<p>One of the main reasons we agreed to an expensive private college (we're from VA and had his tuition and fees prepaid for the equivalent of one semester's tuition at an ivy) was because he had excelled at a highly ranked high school (the acceptance rate is actually lower than any ivy) and he argued that he wanted to interact with kids who were from other places than VA. One thing that none of us expected is that many of the "internationals" were actually born abroad but raised in the US since a very early age and are as American as we are.</p>

<p>Academically, he has had to work for his A's, has not yet gotten an A+ and doesn't believe anyone gets a cumulative 4.0 upon graduation. His classes have all been very small (largest was orgo), his profs all know him by name in and out of the classroom and his happiness and academic fulfillment has been worth every penny of sacrifice on our part. The best thing Princeton has done to ease our concerns was to send out a booklet profiling graduates, their majors, and their careers paths. Most careers had absolutely nothing to do with the chosen major. If a student is bright and interested in a vast array of subjects they will be able to succeed in almost any field.</p>

<p>S2 has just entered Yale and we don't know much about it yet. I will say that at Bulldog Days I immediately noticed how much more diverse the population seemed than at Princeton. This could just be a misjudgment on my part. While I thought S1's freshman dorm was small, S2's double is really tiny. There are hardwood floors, and he does have a nice common room that is shared with 5 others, but his room is almost claustrophobic in size. Biggest observation as a mom was how immaculately clean his room and furniture was compared to S2's. A quick wipe with the lysol cloths was all it took to make me feel like his room was okay to inhabit. Bathroom (shared with one other 6 person suite) is pretty gross. His master and dean did know him rather well by the time we attended parents' weekend in late October, so that was a good sign of the itimacy of Yale's residential colleges. His suitemates all seem very middle class and down to earth as well. There have been lots of drinking problems already (a myriad of unknown kids stumbling into his room and common room in the middle of the night, getting sick, knocking things over, etc.) That has gotten him quite peeved.</p>

<p>This isn't a great post, I'm aware. I'm tired (too many recent road trips with D1 visiting colleges before apps are due) and ironically trying to keep an eye on House as I post. Figured I'd add my two cents for what it's worth.</p>

26

<p>Regarding rankings of undergraduate economics programs (post #2 in this thread), my understanding is that Chicago, Harvard & Northwestern are considered the best in the US.</p>

<p>I am an adult poster. Have encountered several students over the past two years who refuse to apply to Princeton--even though they were well qualified--because of the perception of an elitist culture at the school. A current student at Princeton in her second year has complained bitterly about the social atmosphere at Princeton & wants to leave, but is receiving substantial financial aid. Two other current Princeton students whom I know quite well are not people that I could recommend, although both are highly intelligent & hard workers.
My point is not to focus on negatives, but I am starting to rethink my recommendations to others.
Socially, I regard Stanford as being at the other end of the spectrum.
Based on the above posts and reports from current students, I think that this Ivy may be losing some of its luster.</p>

27

<p>In reply to ColdWind, I'm guessing that the students and the atmospheres at HYPS are about as similar as could be. Why wouldn't they be? These are kids from the same tiny pool who pick one school over the other for idiosyncratic reasons. They all have their legacies, jocks, etc.
I think the student bodies are about interchangeable.
At the same time, these are, by and large, very favored kids. Things have tended to come easy to them, regardless of their family background. And the schools help support the idea that they are the elect.
All four schools have made good faith efforts to expand the range of their student bodies by race and class. But still, the elect. My daughter's work-study boss is in love with her because she is cheery at work, reliable, and ready to do anything. The job isn't about her, which I've come to figure out it must be for most students.
By the numbers, our family income is higher than 25% of the family incomes of other students at her school. But it is hard to figure out who the kids from the lower 25% are. My daughter is guessing that many are Asian-American. But her closest Asian background friends are the kids of a NASA astrophysicist and a legacy from Malaysia.
I don't think there is a solution to this, other than actions that would offend plenty of folks here, like abolishing legacy and athletic preferences.
The academic experience for my daughter has been phenomenal, and it is remarkable the financial support she has received (most of it from alums). She is lucky and we feel grateful as a family. Still, if anyone thinks the kids and families of HYPS kids are "just folks", they are, in the parlance of my day, "smoking something".</p>

28

<p>Thanks for your honesty danas.
I would be interested to see what percentage of legacy students does P have as compared to HYS</p>

29

<ol>
<li>Value of the Diploma</li>
</ol>

<p>My goal with this thread was to avoid the "I have heard" information" and focus on the "I or my family have lived it" information. I believe I have been fairly even-handed in my discussion, tempering my love of the place with reality. In sum it seems that stereotypes have some basis in fact, and that at the same time Princeton - I can't speak for the other similar universities but I assume they are as well - is doing its absolute best to evolve. The evolutionary goal is to continue to polish the academic experience and at the same time to expand the community and the community structure to rid itself of old constraints. </p>

<p>There are stereotypes of Harvard - competitive - Yale - arty - Stanford - ducks swimming. Mostly likely these stereotypes also have some basis in truth, most likely these universities are doing what they can to evolve as well. But I have only heard, not experienced so it's not my place to say anything here.</p>

<p>My final idea was to talk about what the diploma has meant. On second thought I don't think that's worth spending too much time on. My career has been kind of odd, with time out for full-time child-raising. When I re-entered the fulltime work force, I was in fact hired in part because they were impressed I had gone to Princeton. Silicon Valley values intelligence as the common hiring currency; they were willing to take my diploma as a proxy for proof I was smart. But that's just me. Anecdotal.</p>

<p>I was an unlikely Princetonian, a hippie girl from California, patched blue jeans and bandanna. And I have only gone to one reunion - but it made me cry seeing all the young students watching us walk by, rainbow flags and tae kwando beer jackets and all. Really, the social makeup of the school in the 70s might have prevented me from encouraging my children to apply. But I so loved my education I was willing to let my beloved children attend. And, as I saw at my reunion and I see when I visit my kids like last weekend, the school has changed. Does its history have an impact? Yes. Is the history the whole story. Not even close. </p>

<p>I had thought other parents might want to provide similar information for other schools, addressing stereotypes, providing the in depth information you absorb over the years as a parent. Oh well, that's OK. Probably it's more important to me because I'm also an alum and I've got my two and only children there. </p>

<p>I wanted to address the elitist issue truthfully. Princeton has a ways to go to get to the Elysium of intellectual green fields, where class and race play no role. However, I don't think Princeton feels elitist any more. Full of privilege yes. The "Orange Bubble", yes. But not elitist meaning white, rich, conventional, and trying to stay that way. At least to me. </p>

<p>Trust me on this. And if you don't trust me, ask the kids on the CC Princeton board:).</p>

30

<p>In reply to post #27, I think the atmospheres at HYPS are all quite different. I have a kid who attended a college in that group. Because of an EC which involves other colleges, my kid had close friends at all of the others. They, at least, saw some big differences among them. Stanford is the most different--weather, big-time college sports teams, less emphasis on performing and visual arts, half the student body from California, stronger Greek life, racially "themed" housing, etc. </p>

<p>The others have their differences too. Personally, I think of HYP, H and Y are far more alike than either is like P. </p>

<p>Please note that I am NOT claiming any of them is BETTER than another--just that there differences among them which means that there are kids for whom one would be a great fit but another might not be. I know of kids who have applied to transfer from one to another. In one case, the student was accepted and transferred. The student went from being thoroughly miserable to very, very happy. So, I do think the differences can matter.</p>

31

<p>I agree with Post #30 that Stanford has a distinctly different campus culture than does Princeton--although the students are equally intelligent & motivated. Yale is very different than Princeton. Harvard is the most similiar to Princeton with respect to campus culture, but is still significantly different than Princeton.
My concern is that I have often spoken to others recommending Princeton University as the best undergraduate experience available for highly intelligent students, and now I am realizing that the campus culture should be addressed as Princeton is not like many universities which offer a variety of options. My impression is that I need to treat Princeton University in the same manner as when recommending a LAC. The comments that I am receiving are fairly uniform as to the nature of the concerns even though most students came from elite boarding schools while others, with similiar concerns, are graduates of public high schools.</p>

32

<p>"Personally, I think of HYP, H and Y are far more alike than either is like P. "</p>

<p>Strongly agree. I'd say this about both S & P.</p>

<p>One parent's perspective: My parents put each of four daughters through sixteen years of private school and private colleges, and three of us through private law or med school. They were able to cover it, but they lived a completely different lifestyle for the last forty years than they could have lived otherwise. Shared bedrooms, used cars, etc. I often call them specifically to tell them about some new benefit I'm getting thanks to the tuition they paid. I made the most recent of those calls on Tuesday. My father said, "Out of all the tuition I paid, I got the best deal paying for you at Harvard. It would have been a bargain at twice the price."</p>

33

<p>The social ambience is my greatest concern about HYP. For ex., we just checked the team roster of D's sport at her now favorite of the group. Most of last year's recruiting class hailed from private/prep high schools (btw, her sport isn't tennis, crew or fencing, so that's not the reason). We are middle, middle class and even before college tuition was a factor in our family finances, we lived very frugally and modestly. At which of these colleges do you all think socio-economic factors have less potential to make D feel out of place/inferior/or shut out of social activities due to lack of spending money?</p>

34

<p>Hi GFG,
My D is a freshman at Yale and has spent zero money since she got there (I know because I get her debit card statement). She eats on campus, attends lots of free events (concerts, museums, "study breaks" food/fun sponsored by her college at 11 PM, listening to speakers like Tony Blair, Kareem Abdul Jabar, climber Micah Dash, going to college sponsored dances, movies and more.) These events have required no money or new clothes. Yay! Lots of her new friends have the same ideas about what is fun, and none of it involves leaving the campus or spending money. I'll let you know if this changes, but so far, it would be impossible for her to know who "has" and who "has not."</p>

35

<p>My Ds' experiences at Harvard have been just like Riverrunner's D's at Yale (and yes, I think the two schools are as similar in campus life as two schools can be). I'd have to suggest that contrary to stereotype, the socioeconomic factors at Harvard are remarkably egalitarian. Student apparel is pretty casual (though "North Face" fleece seems to be the primary status symbol) and the need for ostentatious displays of spending money is reduced greatly by Harvard's tendency to fund very generously whatever its students want to do. As for the athletic team rosters, I've also noticed that a lot of the student-athletes tend to come from high schools called "The X School" or "Y Academy" rather than "Z County High School." That may have something to do with the Ivy League's Academic Index rule, which requires that the cumulative AI of the roster for each sport be within one-half a standard deviation of that of the entire student body. So it's not just necessary to find athletes who are capable students - the coaches have to recruit athletes whose SAT I and II scores are pretty close to those of the regularly-admitted Ivy students, which are astronomical. Coaches can take a couple of lower-scoring top recruits, but then have to balance those scores with other recruits who meet or perhaps exceed the average of the regular admits. The easiest place to find that combination is probably at highly-selective private prep schools.</p>

36

<p>I spent very little money while at princeton, other than for things like coffee during finals week, etc. Most of the activities on campus are free, and even the partying is free so you don't have to worry about buying drinks at bars (which can add up pretty fast, even if you don't drink much). They run $2 movies every weekend, and the colleges sponsor parties with free t-shirts, entertainment and food.</p>

37

<p>DD graduated from Yale in May. The academics were great, however, she did a double major and did feel that one department was much better than the other in terms of personal attention. She received tons of personal attention in the English Department and not as much in the psychology department which, she felt, was probably a result of the department being geared more to grad school research. The English Department is great. Yale is a gorgeous campus and she loved the Residential College system which, I think, directly impacts the social ambience which is wonderful. New Haven is not as safe or suburban as Princeton, New Jersey, that is for sure and it's not as close to NYC, but it is certainly doable to take the train to NYC. However, she felt that the fact that there isn't that much to do in New Haven created a strong social scene on campus and fostered close relationships -- as opposed to schools where everyone disappears into the local city on the weekend. Regarding the impact of the diploma, she's only 22 but I've already seen doors open for her because of Yale. One more thing, the culture of Yale is one that emphasizes extra-curricular activities. Almost everyone is working hard on activities outside of the classroom and you're not going to feel very comfortable if you don't have other things besides your classes that you are passionately pursuing. It's very intense in that way. I was very surprised at how nurturing and supportive the students are of each other. It is really true that they are competing hard against themselves, but not against each other.</p>

38

<p>I actually find Stanford and Princeton to be very similar. My contact with Stanford has been years as a faculty brat and the fact that it's in my back yard:).</p>

39

<p>"I actually find Stanford and Princeton to be very similar."</p>

<p>That's what my daughter thought when she was making a decision about college -- she felt those two schools were very similar.</p>

40

<p>What about the differences in organizational arrangements that are made at the institutional level? The students at these schools are not that different; it's the institutional arrangements and priorities that vary. Decisions about housing and eating arrangments are made at the top, as are decisions about everything from investments in graduate education versus undergraduates and physical facilities.</p>

<p>The older East Coast schools seem to be trying to walk a fine line between preserving the traditions that make them different while adjusting to new educational and student preferences and priorities. The recent admissions emphasis on racial, ethnic, nationality and income diversity means that the demographics of what is considered a desirable student population are changing quite a bit and not all of the older institutional arrangements seem to suit this new population, especially if the "cool" social life requires a high family income. </p>

<p>Princeton is pretty clearly trying get away from the social dominance of the eating clubs and move instead toward the successful residential college model used by Yale. Of HYP, Yale's student social life seems least dominated by exclusive and expensive private organizations because the four-year residential college system creates a core social culture. </p>

<p>Stanford's arrangements are looser and somewhat more like some public universities, where a certain amount of self-segregation is considered acceptable. This may be because the student body is both more diverse and comes more from the West, where the students may be more likely to come from high schools that are also diverse. Social life at Stanford does not appear to be dominated by graduates of any particular kind of high school or by athletes (probably because to be a serious athlete at Stanford doesn't leave much time for a social life).</p>