<p>Wouldn’t the best way to solve the problem be for applications to eliminate the selection of race, in general? I mean, if the stats of a Black/Hispanic/White/Asian student are good enough to get in to the particular University, why would race matter? The application would be purely merit-based…</p>
<p>Colleges will have enough opportunity to know each student’s socioeconomic background from the applications themselves. There are the school profiles, the essays, the teacher recs, sometimes they even ask for the parents’ incomes!</p>
“There seems to be only two options regarding the race aspect of Affirmative Action: Don’t consider race and continue to marginalize African Americans and Hispanics even more, or stop protecting Caucasians from competition from East Asian and Indian students.” </p>
<p>It’s a lot easier to do the first one because African Americans and Hispanics are a relatively powerless group in the United States today, as illustrated by the passage of Proposition 209 in California. But, we will not be addressing the real issue which is that White students are being insulated from competition from East Asian and Indian Asian students.</p>
<p>Also, I hope you realize that even if colleges got rid of the “race” question they would still have to consider race holistically. If an applicant writes an essay about how his or her life was impacted by race is that still ok?</p>
<p>
It is already merit-based. It’s just that some people are prejudiced and others fail to understand elite college admissions.</p>
<p>Anyways, you’re kidding yourself if you think the United States will adopt an education system like the one in Japan where everything is based solely on “merit.” You find the best students by looking at them holistically not by looking at only grades and test scores. </p>
<p>
Ok, Affirmative Action is used solely on representation. Since people of all races from disadvantaged backgrounds are under-represent at all colleges, they receive the benefit of being a URM.</p>
<p>
Just wanted to say that socio-economic AA does not and should not have anything to due with a family’s income. First of all $50,000 a year in New York City is different than $50,000 a year in Iowa. Second, say one family making $50,000 a year stretches and sends their kid to a private high school while the other family chooses not and sends their kid to the local mediocre public high school? Clearly, the kid from the first family receives an unfair advantage, since his going to a better school will result in best test scores and more opportunities.</p>
<p>Thus, the best way to consider the socio-economic class of an applicant is to consider it holistically. This is what colleges already do. They simply look at the achievements in the context of the opportunities.</p>
<p>“There seems to be only two options regarding the race aspect of Affirmative Action: Don’t consider race and continue to marginalize African Americans and Hispanics even more, or stop protecting Caucasians from competition from East Asian and Indian students.” – Newjack88</p>
<p>So if we continue with AA and keep specifying our race on applications, will there not be a point when we discontinue marginalizing Blacks and Hispanics, and begin marginalizing Whites and Asians (because that’s what AA basically is right, marginalization of primarily the Asian population of students due to so many of them being overly qualified)? The debate becomes largely historical, but when do you propose we stop paying for history’s mistakes of segregating Blacks, etc?</p>
<p>@Newjack88 why should colleges distinguish between a kid who is from east asia or southeast asia? if a kid has the grades, scores and personality fit for a college he should be admitted no matter what his race or ethnicity is</p>
<p>@KweenPain: Any college counselor will tell you that the act of specifying one’s race on a college application, works in favor of Blacks/Hispanics/Native Americans; while putting Asians/Whites at a disadvantage.</p>
<p>don’t understand the uproar about affirmative action.</p>
<p>What’s the legacy system, if not affirmative action for rich, white kids?</p>
<p>Legacies money helps pay for those who can’t afford full tuition. AA’s only claim is that a more diverse student body creates a better environment. But we know that diverse environment is self-segregatiing.</p>
Haha. The current system does not marginalize Whites or Asians. The two groups dominate the college age population. Also, you are missing the point that this debate really should not have anything to do with under-represented groups; rather, it should deal with why colleges require higher admissions standards for Asians.</p>
<p>
Ok. I’ve explained this already. Read my posts. Southeast Asians are often just as poor as Hispanics and African Americans. (I suggest you look up US Census information about average income for Asians by ethnicity.) In addition, most of the Asians in the college population are Indian and East Asian; thus, Southeast Asians, just by race, are under-represented in the college population. Since Affirmative Action is meant to increase the presence of under-represented groups, Southeast Asians should be considered URMs like African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans.</p>
<p>
So what? Any college admissions officer would tell you that if you are born into a wealthy Asian/White family you’ll be more advantaged than if you were born into a wealthy African American/Hispanic/Native American family. Also, quit kidding yourself. Affirmative Action and holistic admissions are two inherently good things because they are both in the interest of our society. If only people were not so uninformed about the issue, I would bet that the only people who would be against Affirmative Action and holistic admissions are elitist, prejudiced individuals.</p>
<p>
Maybe for people like you who do not want to continue maturing as a person. Also, the goal is not to make everyone become friends. It’s to get people to both tolerate and understand individuals who are different than them. From what I have seen on CC, people hanging out with kids of different backgrounds does not really encourage understanding. I cannot count how many times a kid who is White or Asian has asserted that his or her African American friend has never faced any sort of racism, prejudice, or unfavorable treatment for being African American. (I also cannot count how many times I’ve heard males assert that sexism does not exist even though they hang out with females all of the time.) So, clearly “hanging out” with people of different backgrounds does not necessarily promote any sense of meaningful understanding.</p>
<p>Thats the case with all students they admit, the problem is that there are too many students who fit that profile and not enough slots.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Then you obviously don’t even know what AA is. AA is the PART of college admissions that considers race/ethnicity/national origin/gender Considering socioeconomics is called…considering socioeconomics.</p>
<p>ee33ee:
You’re missing the point. There are poor people in every race. No matter what race you are you will be benefited by Affirmative Action because poor people are under-represented in college admissions.</p>
<p>Also, this is NOT about being disadvantaged or advantaged. It’s about representation. The only reason why disadvantaged or advantaged comes up is to explain discrepancies in representation of various groups.</p>
<p>Oh okay newjack, so you’re saying it’s for diversity, that only certain races can bring certain intangible qualities to a college, that it would be impossible to evaluate a person without considering their race, and thus there are inherent differences between races that can’t be characterized by the myriad other factors like essays, recs, activities, and Socioeconomic background?</p>
<p>Well, that seems a little racist to me. Keep in mind, I fully agree. But I am a racist. I’m not a bigot, though.</p>
For like the tenth time, Affirmative Action already takes into consideration a person’s socio-economic background.</p>
<p>Nope. Not what I am saying. Again, Affirmative Action is about addressing discrepancies in representation of certain groups.</p>
<p>Also, in today’s society, there are four factors that ultimately shape who a person is and how they process experiences: gender, socio-economic background, “race”/ethnicity, and family background (are your parents married? location of family, etc.). Given these things and the background of your school and such, colleges can assess the merits of your achievements in proper context-this is what holistic admissions means. Things like essays, ECs, etc. allow you to distinguish yourself from others from similar backgrounds. This is important because at schools like Harvard many applicants come from similar backgrounds and have similar achievements. Due to logistic reasons, they cannot admit all of the qualified students; thus, they become picky and choose those who are most unique, most likely to become famous, most likely to be creative thinkers, most likely to have not had to result to “grinding” their way through high school to achieve, etc.</p>
<p>
Ok, so you’re racist? I hope you know that means your opinion on Affirmative Action is insignificant then.</p>
<p>ee33ee:
Are you a male? If so, chances are you are benefiting from AA. Do you hail from Alaska or one of the other less-represented states? If yes, the same thing applies.</p>
<p>Relax jack, I think we agree on most of the key issues. I was a little disturbed at first because I thought you were suggesting that race could supplant socioeconomic factors in decisions.</p>
<p>But now I see that you’re saying they should work hand in hand. I completely agree. </p>
<p>I also agree that race is very important in holistic evaluations, because it’s an essential category that cannot be overlooked. With all else equal, different races make different people. Couldn’t agree more, and I definitely appreciate the fact that the college I’ll be going to this fall won’t just be a blend of whites and Asians.</p>
<p>I acknowledge differences between races, and am quite happy that AA seeks to incorporate these differences into a vibrant and “whole” community.</p>
<p>I just don’t like it when people say that AA is ONLY to correct socioeconomic status, as if socioeconomic status could be accurately predicted with racial profiling. That’s not only racist, but bigoted as well.</p>
<p>There are inherent benefits to being white in a white-dominated society, the same way that there are inherent benefits to being male in a male-dominated society. (I mean, for an example, a 2001 study showed that white men with a criminal record were given call backs for a job more frequently than black men without records.) People of color (and women) are put at a disadvantage throughout life because of the unearned privileges gained by being white. I don’t think that the 100 black students admitted by University X are given unfair privileges, considering the institutionalized discrimination they will face throughout life.</p>
<p>“No matter what race you are you will be benefited by Affirmative Action” - Newjack88</p>
<p>I don’t think you understand what AA is…
The point of AA is to advantage under represented minorities of the college applicant pool! Colleges admit lesser qualified Blacks/Hispanics over Whites/Asians due to AA. They use AA as an excuse to promote diversity on their college campuses. If the application system was merit-based (as UCB, for example, has started doing) colleges would be flooded with the qualified Asians who apply. That’s what I understand from Affirmative Action; what you’ve been defining it as, hasn’t been making too much sense - especially when you claim every race is benefitted by it?</p>
<p>The point some of us have been trying to make is that this is not the case, and Asians, for instance, are viewed much more critically in college admissions since so many of them apply and so many have such great stats. We do not approve of how several Blacks/Hispanics/Native Americans are assessed much less critically.</p>
<p>—Quoted from the site: “Li came to the decision to file a civil rights complaint against Princeton after reading studies by Princeton researchers which claimed that ending affirmative action in university admissions would lead to 80% of placements currently offered to black and Latino students instead being given to Asian Americans.”</p>
<p>@KweenPain: So what you’re saying is that Whites/Asians will have to sacrifice our (well deserved) spot at a top college to Blacks/Hispanics, because of the segregation they might face later on in life?</p>
<p>My parents immigrated to the U.S. from China in the early 90s, with a combined income of $600 usd. We lived in a shabby apartment in chinatown for a couple of years along with 10 other relatives. Both of my parents grew up during the mao era/cultural revolution era, so neither went beyond middle school in terms of education. My parents do not even know how to do algebra. My dad works as a waiter in restaurants earning and average of 2000-3000 a month and my mom worked in factories for couple of years for $5 an hour. </p>
<p>Despite the fact that my parents are uneducated did not stop me from succeeding in school. I went to regular public schools until hs, when I tested into one of the specialized hs in nyc. </p>
<p>The fact is, many many asians grew up in an environment similar to mine, and still manage to succeed. The stereotype that asian parents are strict is true. They are not strict in the sense that they check to see if you’ve done your hw every night. In fact, the last time my parents looked at my report card was in 6th grade. There is an unspoken expectation that we must succeed. To us, America really is the land of opportunities. We know what it would be like if we don’t seize the opportunity to live a better life (socioeconomically). Really, if you have the drive, you can succeed in any environment and climb out of any pit.</p>
<p>That’s why I’ve always opposed AA b/c it doesn’t account for the fact that Asians (and other non URM minorities like Indians, Russians, etc etc) who struggle and succeed. It’s true that we’ve done well in the U.S. education system, but it wasn’t all smooth sailing. I feel that AA discredits our struggles, and gives a spot to the URMs (hispanics, blacks). I’m not saying that the URMs had it easy, or that they are a bunch of lazy bums. I’m saying that AA does not take into account that there are people in every race who don’t start out with a golden spoon in their mouth.</p>
<p>There should be ways to compensate for slavery and Jim Crow so that it doesn’t take away anything from other groups.</p>