I am hispanic. Do you think I went to college thanks to affirmative action?

[Screwdriver]

<p>I have read that thread - I even posted on it a few times using a different screen name.</p>

<p>Trust me: I went through the college admission process. I should know. I do not claim that a short dictionary definition will make one understand all the nuances of AA today, but I do think that a dictionary is the best starting point when one is looking for a definition. I think that you are deeply mislead if you honestly believe that there is no difference between racial affirmative action and attempts to increase socioeconomic diversity. Also, I can tell you from experience that at my (top 5) school, most URMs come from wealthy families, not from the inner city.</p>

[razzlegrl]

<p>newjack88</p>

<p>“You do realize that it was mainly first generation Asians, who did not experience the historic discrimination Asians already living in the country experienced, primarily benefited from Affirmative Action.”</p>

<p>I really don’t think affirmative action includes Asians, it’s more oriented toward African Americans and Hispanics. That’s why you have the lower PSAT qualify score for national merit and all. If anything, Asians are one of those races that just does not get the cut when it comes to college admission. All brains and high stats.</p>

[Newjack88]

<p>

I really don’t think affirmative action includes Asians, it’s more oriented toward African Americans and Hispanics. That’s why you have the lower PSAT qualify score for national merit and all. If anything, Asians are one of those races that just does not get the cut when it comes to college admission. All brains and high stats.

I’m talking about the history of it. There was a point in time when Asians were under-represented at colleges.</p>

[Ernie_H]

<p>I’m surprised that the real issue hasn’t come up here at all yet: Racial discrimination is simply illegal. </p>

<p>Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act says, quite plainly: No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race or color, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.</p>

<p>[Title</a> VI Statute](<a href=“http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/cor/coord/titlevistat.htm]Title”>http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/cor/coord/titlevistat.htm)</p>

<p>Affirmative action = racial preference
Racial preference = racial discrimination
Racial discrimination = illegal
Affirmative action = illegal</p>

[Newjack88]

<p>

I think that you are deeply mislead if you honestly believe that there is no difference between racial affirmative action and attempts to increase socioeconomic diversity.

There is no difference. They are both based on the principle of representation. Also, the reason why it may appear that there is no such thing as socioeconomic AA is because few kids from disadvantaged backgrounds apply to schools like HYP, etc. in the first place.</p>

<p>

Also, I can tell you from experience that at my (top 5) school, most URMs come from wealthy families, not from the inner city.

Yea. That does not really surprise me.</p>

<p>Ernie H.:

I’m surprised that the real issue hasn’t come up here at all yet: Racial discrimination is simply illegal.

That’s not the real issue, though. Look up Justice Powell’s opinion on Bakke. He applauded the way that Harvard considered race in their holistic admissions system, which is the way it is still used today.</p>

[Ernie_H]

<p>Newjack88, affirmative action came into place well after desegregation, by which time, if I’m not mistaken, most Asians were already quite well assimilated into the population.</p>

[Keshira]

<p>

Here’s a thought for the OP:
If you complain so much about AA, why didn’t you put yourself as “race unknown”? I’m pretty sure that would’ve solved all your fickle qualms about your merits on admission

</p>

<p>Brilliant.</p>

<p>

Schools such as HYP are 9% (or less) black. Preference? Not exactly.

</p>

<p>But is that because black students as a group just aren’t achieving academically, or because a black student with the same stats as an Asian or white student is being judged by harsher standards? On the contrary, they are being judged by easier standards. </p>

<p>Affirmative Action is racism no matter how you flip it. Simply being black is not a disadvantage factor, though being black and poor with uneducated parents may be; just as being Asian/white and poor with uneducated parents is. But this is not something AA takes into account, and the majority of students who are benefitting from it are upper-middle class black children of professional parents, who are NOT disadvantaged.</p>

[amb3r]

<p>

Simply being black is not a disadvantage factor

</p>

<p>Though I am opposed to AA, I won’t agree 100% with the idea that being black is not a disadvantage factor. Are you saying racism is completely eliminated from today’s society?</p>

[mikesown]

<p>As long as we’re opening up a can of worms…</p>

<p>I think that some racial groups(African-Americans and Hispanics most notably) employ self-imposed barriers to education. A student belonging to these groups may elect not to take honors classes for fear of being ostracized from his/her social group, and being the only minority kid in the class with no friends to talk to in the class, even though the kid may be very smart.</p>

<p>As a side-note, it’s interesting to note that other minority groups in the US have been very successful in US education (notably Asian-Americans and Jewish-Americans). </p>

<p>Anyway, back to AA: The question becomes: Should colleges give this student who may have been capable of taking a full AP courseload and getting a 5.0 GPA better consideration despite taking easy classes and getting a B average? This brings up a large number of questions:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Will the student succeed in college without adequate preparation from HS? If the student was capable of taking AP classes, but was taking regular-track classes, will the student be able to catch up to his/her/peers?</p></li>
<li><p>Is it right that the minority student put in significantly less work than the non-minority student, yet has a larger chance of getting in?</p></li>
<li><p>Is it right for colleges to correct for the fact that the student’s culture inspired him/her to be lazy and not do his/her work?</p></li>
<li><p>Will the student form good study habits in college, or will the student continue his/her trend of doing more poorly than the average non-minority student?</p></li>
<li><p>What should admissions criteria be based on? Past accomplishments in HS(in which case the non-minority students would clearly be at an advantage)? Fluid Intelligence? Crystalized Intelligence?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>My personal take on the matter is that, while I believe African-Americans and Hispanics do have the self-imposed barrier to education success, I do not think it is right for colleges to correct for this. Here are some reasons why I believe this:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>It promotes the idea that minorities are inferior, and continues to encourage minorities to succeed less. Minority students may feel they don’t need to achieve as much as the non-minority student to get into a good school, so they continue to do less.</p></li>
<li><p>I believe that students who do not have the background of high-caliber AP courses will not be prepared to attend an elite university, and will not be able to get out as much as another student might. For example, a student entering, say, Harvard with no AP credits would likely have to take a lot of general courses, and thus would be prevented from taking higher-level(possibly graduate-level) courses. A student with 5 APs is able to get to a higher level of knowledge by the end of their four years as compared to a student with no APs.</p></li>
<li><p>I’m a big believer in Horatio Alger. I think that anyone is capable of success, no matter what their starting condition is, as long as the person has the work ethic and determination to succeed. I think that a brilliant African-American living in South Bronx whose family is earning $10,000 / year can go to Harvard if the student works hard. Yes, it may be harder for that student to achieve success than a upper-middle class student living in the suburbs attending a prep school, but I believe it is possible to achieve success no matter what the person starts out with.</p></li>
<li><p>It rewards a culture of education-rejection. How is it right to say that an African-American or Hispanic whose culture rejects education is entitled to a better standing in the admissions process than a non-minority student whose family doesn’t value education and doesn’t provide for good study habits or a good environment conducive to studying? </p></li>
</ol>

<p>So, as you can see, I dislike AA for the above reasons. I think that college admissions should solely be based on what you have accomplished in the past, as this accurately demonstrates a students’ work ethic and ability.</p>

[Newjack88]

<p>

Newjack88, affirmative action came into place well after desegregation, by which time, if I’m not mistaken, most Asians were already quite well assimilated into the population.

False. Look up the The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.</p>

<p>[Asian-Nation</a> : Asian American History, Demographics, & Issues :: The 1965 Immigration Act](<a href=“http://www.asian-nation.org/1965-immigration-act.shtml]Asian-Nation”>The 1965 Immigration Act : Asian-Nation :: Asian American History, Demographics, & Issues)

The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 represents a significant watershed moment in Asian American history. Reversing decades of systematic exclusion and restrictive immigration policies, the Act resulted in unprecedented numbers of immigrants from Asia, Mexico, Latin America, and other non-western nations entering the U.S. In the process, these new arrivals, particular from Asia, have transformed the demographic, economic, and cultural characteristics of many urban areas, the larger Asian American community, and mainstream American society in general.

</p>

<p>

These unprecedented numbers of immigrants from Asia have led to many demographic, economic, and cultural shifts in the Asian American community and mainstream American society in general. Once mainly composed of the U.S.-born, virtually all Asian American ethnic groups are now predominantly foreign-born due to the influx of so many immigrants as a result of the 1965 Act. Among other consequences, their presence has contributed to the revitalization (as well as the new development) of many Asian enclaves in several major metropolitan areas in the U.S.

Keshira:

Affirmative Action is racism no matter how you flip it. Simply being black is not a disadvantage factor, though being black and poor with uneducated parents may be; just as being Asian/white and poor with uneducated parents is. But this is not something AA takes into account, and the majority of students who are benefitting from it are upper-middle class black children of professional parents, who are NOT disadvantaged.

Check out the thread I have been posting. People who think that today’s Affirmative Action has anything to do with racism or discrimination are misunderstanding what Affirmative Action is. Really Affirmative Action is the same thing as holistic admissions.</p>

[Ernie_H]

<p>That article deals with immigration policies. But were the Asians that were here already being excluded from college admission? I don’t know. Anyway, that has little or even nothing to do with the topic at hand. It’s amazing how nobody ever cares to respond to my post (which I have posted in numerous AA threads) regarding the concrete illegality of AA.</p>

[Newjack88]

<p>mikesown:
Nothing that you said in your post is fair. What makes you think you can make statements like, “African-Americans and Hispanics do have the self-imposed barrier to education success?” Honestly, that is disgraceful. Also, since when was the historic discrimination that Asians, Hispanics, African Americans, women, etc. experienced “self-imposed?” Ok, so women deserved to be discriminated against because they chose to be born women? </p>

<p>

It rewards a culture of education-rejection. How is it right to say that an African-American or Hispanic whose culture rejects education is entitled to a better standing in the admissions process than a non-minority student whose family doesn’t value education and doesn’t provide for good study habits or a good environment conducive to studying?

Dude…? Oh my goodness! A “culture of education-rejection?”</p>

<p>

As a side-note, it’s interesting to note that other minority groups in the US have been very successful in US education (notably Asian-Americans and Jewish-Americans).

You’re missing the bigger picture. First of all, I don’t think you can compare the discrimination Jews faced in the United States to the discrimination Asians, African Americans, and Hispanics faced. Second, many Asians benefited because they came at an opportune time and did not have to deal with the worst of the worst discrimination other Asians already living here had to deal with, which has proven to be a huge psychological advantage. Similarly, have you ever noticed how many of the brightest African American kids are Africans and could probably make it into HYP, etc. without AA? Well, I would contend that it is their background of not having been familiar with racism that allowed them to succeed in school. These kids don’t really care about whether or not they will be ostracized by African Americans if they took AP classes, etc. Basically, I think that being unfamiliar with racism and discrimination can be a huge advantage psychologically.</p>

<p>“I’m a big believer in Horatio Alger.”
Horatio Alger’s ideas are irrelevant in today’s world. This guy basically asserts that poor people are poor because they don’t work hard enough. Frankly, I would suggest that you never tell anyone you believe this guy’s ideas, especially if you want to have any credibility when discussing social matters.</p>

[Newjack88]

<p>

That article deals with immigration policies. But were the Asians that were here already being excluded from college admission? I don’t know.

Yes, as much as other minorities were.</p>

<p>Also, I responded and I told you to look up what Justice Powell said in the Bakke case where he created the framework under which Affirmative Action operates today. Also, when talking about Affirmative Action you need to understand what it accounts for which is “representation.”</p>

[Newjack88]

<p>This post talks only about the race aspect of Affirmative Action. It is not including the socio-economic, gender, geography, etc. aspect of the policy.</p>

<p>I just want to point out that Affirmative Action and Asians having higher admissions standards are not the same discussion. I think that the Asian issue can be resolved by distinguishing between East Asian, Southeast Asian, and Indian Asian, and then considering East Asian and Indian Asian non-URM’s. </p>

<p>Right now Asians are clumped together, which is to the disadvantage to primarily Southeast Asians who face a similar situation to that of African Americans and Hispanics. So obviously, we need to address this by taking into consideration differences between Asians.</p>

<p>Lastly, Indian Asians and East Asians should not be considered “over-represented.” No one should be disadvantaged because they are “over-represented.” That is just complete BS and it is obvious that certain groups in this country are trying to limit the opportunities of minorities. I think that East Asians and Indian Asians should instead be considered non-URM so that they are on the same playing field as Whites. Last time I checked being a minority is a disadvantaged, so how does it make sense to require that a minority be more qualified than someone in the majority?</p>

<p>Bottom line:
There seems to be only two options regarding the race aspect of Affirmative Action: Don’t consider race and continue to marginalize African Americans and Hispanics even more, or stop protecting Caucasians from competition from East Asian and Indian students. Can anyone else think of other solutions? I’m getting sick of kids complaining about it and not understanding. Instead of just moaning about it and being ignorant of it, how about everyone educate themselves on the issue and see if they can come up with a solution?</p>

[mikesown]

<p>

@Newjack88

Nothing that you said in your post is fair. What makes you think you can make statements like, “African-Americans and Hispanics do have the self-imposed barrier to education success?” Honestly, that is disgraceful. Also, since when was the historic discrimination that Asians, Hispanics, African Americans, women, etc. experienced “self-imposed?” Ok, so women deserved to be discriminated against because they chose to be born women?

</p>

<p>The theory of a self-imposed educational barrier is commonly recognized in academia. Some dispute why this was created(whites oppressing blacks and hispanics historically, for example), but I don’t think there’s any doubt that this barrier exists for the majority of minority students.</p>

<p>The self-imposed barrier does not apply to every culture. Asians are a perfect example of this; their culture promotes studying. I always hear stories from some of my Asian friends about how their moms yell at them to do homework and basically force them to spend 5 hours a day studying. This is precisely why Asians perform better than even caucasian students on standardized tests; their culture promotes performing well on academic tests or bringing shame to their family. While asians may be oppressed in many ways in our culture, through the determination of the group to overcome this barrier of being poor and not having much.</p>

<p>Women are, again, a perfect example of this. While once seen as having the sole purpose of being housewives, women have risen the same level as men, both economically and socially, through their determination to succeed.</p>

<p>

@Newjack88

You’re missing the bigger picture. First of all, I don’t think you can compare the discrimination Jews faced in the United States to the discrimination Asians, African Americans, and Hispanics faced. Second, many Asians benefited because they came at an opportune time and did not have to deal with the worst of the worst discrimination other Asians already living here had to deal with, which has proven to be a huge psychological advantage. Similarly, have you ever noticed how many of the brightest African American kids are Africans and could probably make it into HYP, etc. without AA? Well, I would contend that it is their background of not having been familiar with racism that allowed them to succeed in school. These kids don’t really care about whether or not they will be ostracized by African Americans if they took AP classes, etc. Basically, I think that being first generation can be a huge advantage psychologically.

</p>

<p>I think that comparing Jewish people to the discrimination of Asians is a great comparison. Both groups of people came to the US poor and without any significant contacts. Yet, both groups managed to work their way up in the social hierarchy by working hard and getting good educations, without the help of AA, whilist being discriminated against by the presiding groups in America.</p>

<p>Let’s compare this to the discrimination Hispanics face. Generally, these groups of people come from Mexico or South America with little or no skilled working experience and almost no money in their pocket, similar to the Asian and Jewish immigrants. How else can their poverty be accounted for other than a lack of will to succeed and get good educations? I’m open to explanations: please, enlighten me.</p>

<p>

@Newjack88

Horatio Alger’s ideas are irrelevant in today’s world. This guy basically asserts that poor people are poor because they don’t work hard enough. Frankly, I would suggest that you never tell anyone you believe this guy’s ideas, especially if you want to have any credibility when discussing social matters.

Alger’s ideas most certainly are relevant in today’s world. Poor people ARE poor because they’re not willing to work as hard as what’s needed to get into the middle class. “Working hard” though, is not working a 9-5 job; it’s working 3 jobs to put yourself through school. Most people do not have the determination to do this. Middle(and upper-middle)-class people have to work less hard to succeed(as they can usually afford an education), but it is certainly possible for a poor person to become a rich person. I won’t pretend it’s easy, but all I’m saying is that it’s possible to go from rags to riches with the determination and hard work necessary to do so. It’s the principle this country was founded on, and I think it stays true to this day!</p>

[Newjack88]

<p>mikesown:
Would have been helpful if you had completely explained what you mean by “self-imposed.”</p>

<p>

I think that comparing Jewish people to the discrimination of Asians is a great comparison. Both groups of people came to the US poor and without any significant contacts. Yet, both groups managed to work their way up in the social hierarchy by working hard and getting good educations, without the help of AA, whilist being discriminated against by the presiding groups in America.

Jews were never treated as poorly as “colored” minorities. Also, you are comparing the financial state the two groups came to this country not the discrimination they faced. (I’m not sure if it’s true if Jews came to this country poor, though.) Anyways, read my earlier post where I talked about the “first generation” advantage. It’s easy to see why Asians appeared to flourish under AA. If we had seen more Africans coming at that time African Americans would appear to have benefited just as much as Asians appear to have benefited.</p>

<p>

Alger’s ideas most certainly are relevant in today’s world. Poor people ARE poor because they’re not willing to work as hard as what’s needed to get into the middle class. “Working hard” though, is not working a 9-5 job; it’s working 3 jobs to put yourself through school. Most people do not have the determination to do this.

It’s not a matter of working hard; it’s almost impossible for poor people to get out of poverty on their own. I think that making poverty an issue of not working hard enough is grossly oversimplifying the issue.</p>

<p>

Middle(and upper-middle)-class people have to work less hard to succeed(as they can usually afford an education), but it is certainly possible for a poor person to become a rich person. I won’t pretend it’s easy, but all I’m saying is that it’s possible to go from rags to riches with the determination and hard work necessary to do so. It’s the principle this country was founded on, and I think it stays true to this day!

I am not saying it’s impossible, I’m just disagreeing that it’s not an issue of working hard. Are you unaware of the fact that, bar winning the lottery, etc., a family cannot change their socio-economic class in one generation? It’s a lot harder than you think.</p>

[madville]

<p>

The theory of a self-imposed educational barrier is commonly recognized in academia. Some dispute why this was created(whites oppressing blacks and hispanics historically, for example), but I don’t think there’s any doubt that this barrier exists for the majority of minority students.

Agreed, there are self defeating attitudes and behaviors among some minority populations, but the fact also remains that being black will probably mean:</p>

<p>You will more likely be “tracked” into lower academic classes more frequently and sooner than your white peers,</p>

<p>Your will be punished/ disciplined more frequently and severely for similiar infractions than your white peers,</p>

<p>You will be categorized as needing some form of special ed intervention or labled ADD disproportunately,</p>

<p>Your teachers will be less qualified and many not even having a background in subjects taught disproportunately,</p>

<p>You will be recommended less for honors and AP classes, less so than your white peers even when you do have comparable qualifications,</p>

<p>I could go on and on. The point is that there are many obstacles facing people of color that have everything to do to the subtle and not so subtle forms of racism. The aforementioned facts as well as many more are a huge factor on educational outcomes. Even when you compare apples to apples socio economically, blacks and Latinos lag behind the majority in many sigificant categories, academically and economically. </p>

<p>As these threads illustrate, race is a sensitive topic. Those in academia ALSO realize the sigificant barriers socially and economically that many minorities have to overcome to even begin to approach the lofty standards set by the status quo.</p>

<p>And for all those who may want to lament those who speak to the realities of the difficulties of having brown skin in this culture, and want to trivialize it, and label it victomology thinking, refer to their own anecdotal hardships and triumphs, I tell them this as quoted from Tony Brown and others:</p>

<p>If the White man has a cold, then the Black man has pneumonia."</p>

<p>Clearly, in this analogy, one can see that one situation is a nuisance, while the other condition is quite more serious.</p>

<p>Think about it…</p>

[madville]

<p>

Let’s compare this to the discrimination Hispanics face. Generally, these groups of people come from Mexico or South America with little or no skilled working experience and almost no money in their pocket, similar to the Asian and Jewish immigrants. How else can their poverty be accounted for other than a lack of will to succeed and get good educations? I’m open to explanations: please, enlighten me.

</p>

<p>It has a lot more to do than “they just pulled themselves up by the bootstraps” mantra so commonly taught in acdemia today.</p>

<p>While there is no doubt Jews, and other ethnic groups from Europe were discriminated against, they had human, social and economical capital that they were able to parlay into success here in the americas. Many of these immigrants were skilled artisians, artists, musicians, scientists, businessmen, etc. They were also able to keep their faiths and their cultural practices intact. They were escaping the forms of tyranny in western and eastern europe. Those boat rides weren’t free, so you know somebody had some money and that boatride was nothing like the diaspora of the Africans. Because they were able to “bring so much to the table” so to speak, and assimilate more readily than people of color into this society, are some of the reasons that they were successful in their transition into this country. It is a simplification, I know, but you hopefully can get the point. May I suggest Sowell’s “Race and Cultures”, if you really want a good read on the relation of race and its economic impact in various cultures.</p>

[tanveer149]

<p>Everyone keeps bringing up how black and hispanic kids are so underpirviliged and they end up going to inferior schools. Many asian kids face the same situation or worst. They still manage to succede and yet they are the biggest victims of AA.</p>

[Newjack88]

<p>

Everyone keeps bringing up how black and hispanic kids are so underpirviliged and they end up going to inferior schools. Many asian kids face the same situation or worst. They still manage to succede and yet they are the biggest victims of AA.

Most CC’ers are anti-Affirmative Action because they think it hurts them directly and will keep them from getting into HYP, etc. Anyways, if that is really what you are concerned about, kudos to you for thinking of others. :)</p>

<p>Anyways, I agree, I think that colleges should distinguish between Asians: East Asian, Indian Asian, and Southeast Asian. That would solve this problem.</p>