I hate affirmative action

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Don't ask like racism doesn't exist. I suggest you all takes classes in sociology and then you'll understand why AA really exists. I have seen my father deal with everything I said...including being paid less for doing the same work as white counterparts.

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<p>yeah. those poor asian men, right? my poor parents, having to get passed over for promotions and everything.</p>

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still get stereotyped when I walk through a mall or pulled over occasionally when I drive....just because I dress a certain way and talk a certain way when around friends.

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<p>preach it! i'm so goddamned tired of those stereotypes about asian women drivers that just thinking about it makes me mad. arrrgh!</p>

<p>oh wait. AA doesn't care.</p>

<p>Well actually if you were from Southeast Asia AA would care because they are doing just as bad statisically as Hispanics and African-Americans unfortunately. My best female friend is Asian and I have lots of Asian friends and I know about stereotypes for them. I've seen them be stereotyped even in bowling alleys and decide to leave. (Lots of Asian gangs around here). The thing is that Asian-Americans are overachieving because of the culture they come from just Africa-Americans who have actual African or Caribbean parents often do. I'll use my high school as an example. We're the shining star of the city, but don't get nearly as much funding as poorer performing schools. Now I get mad too, but in the end a bunch of those kids don't even have book to bring home. Who needs the leg up more?</p>

<p>Me -- I deserve it.</p>

<p>I don't believe in leg-ups. I don't believe in judging from an unequal starting point.</p>

<p>Then we differ philisophically. That's what it comes down to. I hold no malice towards you though and usually I feel the same as you, but I really can't overlook everything that has happened to the black community especially. Civil rights era wasn't so long ago and then there was the crack era in the 80s which Reagan basically ignored as black communities deteriorated. There were those cases where it was found the CIA was involved in the distribution.....that's another topic entirely though. I really think crack is what killed the African-American family. Too many people growing up with no fathers having kids out of wedlock continuing the cycle. The trend of drugs holds true it most low-income communities. I see it over here in poor white areas...across the state. </p>

<p>How can you ignore the starting point....sociologists have shown why so many of these trends occur I see AA as an attempt though flawed one to combat this.</p>

<p>because what you see is history. what i see is the present. what i recognize to be self-made choices, you attribute to historical injustices.</p>

<p>there's the difference. i differ between generations and expect each individual to decided for himself.</p>

<p>I hate people who hate affirmative action because they demonstrate absolutely no understanding of institutional racism or of race relations in America. They also tend to be racist. UH OH.</p>

<p>It just amazes me. Black Americans were not even recognized as human for 200 years, then they were treated as barely human for 100 years, and they've been dealing with various unwritten stumbling blocks to their success since then. The grandfather of a given black college student could have been murdered without comment. The great-great grandfather of that student was property. But whitey doesn't get into his top choice of college? OH SNAP THAT'S RACISM LOL.</p>

<p>At what point should affirmative action cease to exist?</p>

<p>What about Jews?? How about for at least a thousand years...
Did you know, that the KKK was formed not only because of blacks, but also Jews and Catholics? Also, some devout christians believe that the formation of Israel was the commencement of the countdown towards the Apocalypse.</p>

<p>I really don't think there has been as much recorded hatred towards blacks than there has towards Jewish people. </p>

<p>My great-grandmother lived in a town where people would throw rocks at you and your house if you did not celebrate Christmas. So, they put up a christmas tree every year, and celebrated the Jewish holidays. But, since she was white, that's ok. </p>

<p>So I really don't understand the argument of oppression.</p>

<p>"At what point should affirmative action cease to exist?"</p>

<p>I don't know when affirmative action can be phased out of existence. Not now, that's for sure. Not for a long time, either. Three hundred years of institutionalized racism isn't going to just up and disappear. Although, I imagine that something more effective and less open to exploitation will be instituted at some point.</p>

<p>"My great-grandmother lived in a town where people would throw rocks at you and your house if you did not celebrate Christmas. So, they put up a christmas tree every year, and celebrated the Jewish holidays. But, since she was white, that's ok."</p>

<p>I'm not going to deny the effects of anti-Semitism. But- look. You've just demonstrated why black racism is important. How many of your Jewish relatives were lynched, or enslaved, or forced to use separate facilities? Did they have to go to crappy, Jew-only schools that lacked all funding? We're talking about America, here. </p>

<p>If you really can't see how Black Americans have been, and continue to be oppressed, then... well, I guess I just can't understand that.</p>

<p>Even if there was no racism all people would not be equal. Cultural issues would surely make college attendance rates, per capita income, literacy, # of children, & many other factors vary. In fact, I doubt institutionalized racism can be blamed for poor school performance (the reason AA is needed). Asians & Jews seemed to have outcompeted generic Whites for quite a long time now. Why has racism made them better? Why are native Africans able to compete at a much higher level than African-Americans? It's a cultural issue.</p>

<p>Posted by Coronaryay:</p>

<p>"But whitey doesn't get into his top choice of college? OH SNAP THAT'S RACISM LOL."</p>

<p>"Whitey" here,</p>

<p>Nice term. Very NON-racist of you.</p>

<p>First - I am not Black or Jewish. For everyone who believes that the oppression of Blacks and Jews are entirely separate then they should step back and consider that oppression is oppression. While many people may identify the word Ghetto with Blacks, it is not a Black word - it originated with the Jews.</p>

<p>You are right about one thing though Coronaryay, the Jews didn't have to use separate facilities - they were lucky if they had facilities at all and where they did exist the location had a charming name such as Dachau or Aushwitz. Lynching? Not always. Instead, they were the recipients of the finely engineered German gas chambers. Oh, let us not forget the medical experimentation they were subjected to by Dr. Mengel. Yes, slaves had to carry around papers whenever they weren't in the presence of a white person. Jews wore the Star of David and later on a tattoo serial number on their forearms. Jews also, a long, long time ago were slaves. Remember that the lack of respect you show one group is the same lack of respect you're throwing a fit over. </p>

<p>Another group that suffered at the hands of America is the Japanese during World War II. Japanese-American citizens were put into camps for years only because of the way they looked. Are their kids still whining about this? Are Japanese kids acting lazy and demanding the right to be admitted to top colleges just because of this? No, they're performing and their work is top quality. </p>

<p>I have met Iraqis who still squat behind a bush to poop but can do calculus at a college level. An Indian kid who probably didn't have plumbing within a mile of his house still took the time to learn and get good grades. These minorities aren't ridiculed for not making an effort to be a better student because they already have made that effort. Maybe other benefactors of affirmative action should too rather than complain they aren't being coddled enough. </p>

<hr>

<p>Southern trees bear strange fruit
Blood on the leaves
Blood at the root
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees
Pastoral scene of the gallow south
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth
The scent of magnolia sweet and fresh
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh
Here is a fruit for the crows to pluck
for the rain to gather
for the wind to suck
for the sun to rot
for the tree to drop
Here is a strange and bitter crop</p>

<ul>
<li>written by a Jewish man greatly affected by the photographs of a lynching. Sung by Billie Holiday.</li>
</ul>

<p>Mr. Payne it is a cultural issue because Africans come here and see all the oppurtunities instead of the oppurtunities AA have been denied for so long or how disproportionately white those in power in this country are. That's the difference. Also there is a strong sense of family and the African-American family strucutre is in ruin.....no AA can cure that.</p>

<p>Here lies the failed horse,
a diseased, tortured soul t'was,
mane rotten gray, lifeless flesh,
so majestic still.
But dear horse, so serene and mighty, I ask
Why are you beaten?
What hast thou done?
Who are these vultures
who yet pick on thee? </p>

<p>:D</p>

<p>coronaryay, your comments were completely insensitive and deplorable. How many college students today were forced to go to segregated schools with no funding, use separate facilities, or were lynched? </p>

<p>It's all horrible and it was all wrong but how does affirmative action help the real victims (those in chains or hanging from trees) or punish the real offenders? The intent of the system is good but the execution is unfair</p>

<p>I find it interesting that nobody who has made assertations such as the one made by coronaryay (about blacks having suffered), has responded to posts like My Cat Rocks' or my previous one, in which I said:</p>

<p>Can someone explain to me this: many people on this thread have made the arguement that blacks have suffered more than people of other ethnicities and should therefore be able to reap the benefits of AA. I don't understand this because it is implying that you [who said it] are basically attempting to get retribution for slavery through AA, which I don't believe is possible. How can centuries of slavery be avenged through some college admissions? YOU did not personally suffer from this rampant racism (though you may have been exposed to some discrimination), so why you YOU have the benifits of AA for things that occured generations before your admission to college?</p>

<p>Somebody also seemed to imply that blacks had suffered from segregation for almost all of history, until the civil rights movement, and that Jews ONLY suffered in the Holocaust and Asians ONLY as a prejudice from WWII. I beg to differ. Please correct me if I am wrong, but to my knowledge Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years. Have not you ever learned of Ancient History? The Roman Empire? Jews were discriminated against at nearly the same levels as blacks: they were shunned from society and banned to jobs as bankers/loaners, which were looked down upon because they were meddling with money, which was against biblical beliefs. Jews were at the lowest classes of society, on par with slaves. The tragedy of the Holocaust was only a culmination of these anti-semetic tendencies. </p>

<p>And Asians? Though maybe not on the same level of intensity as blacks or jews, asians have been discriminated throughout history as well! During the industrial and progressive eras, Asians immigrated to America and forced to work on railroads and in dangerous mines b/c of a lack of other employment possibilities. The Chinese Exclusion Act? [if you couldn't tell, it prevented immigration of the chinese]. During the late 1800s and 1900s, Asians were discriminated against just the same as blacks and jews in America. And then internment camps during WWII stirred up even more prejudice.</p>

<p>I am interested to see what these people have to say about these FACTS.</p>

<p>I don't think that anyone who opposses AA denies the obvious fact that blacks were unfairly oppressed for many years. However, myself and AA opposers don't see how using discrimination to rectify past discrimination is fair, especially when it affects people who really had nothing to do with slavery. You don't fight fire with fire.</p>

<p>Point the first: Do you want to know the difference between Black Americans, Asian-Americans, and Jewish-Americans? The latter two groups CHOSE to come to America. They wanted to be here because they wanted money, jobs, freedom, whatever. The first group? Whoops, brought here against their will as property. Now, 200 years of that, followed by 100 more years of forced segregation couldn't possibly have affected the way Black Americans live today, could it? It couldn't possibly have put up barriers to their success, could it? No way, man. They're just LAZY. </p>

<p>Point the second: Asian-Americans, European-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Actual-Immigrants-from-Africa-Americans all come to America with an intact cultural heritage. Little Italy? Check. Little Saigon? Check. But... Little Nairobi? Where are the African cultural centers? Wait, there are none, because slaves don't get to keep their culture, their language, or even the integrity of their families. Thus, the roots of the "black" culture that you all so glibly dismiss as "lazy" and "apolitical" and "sex-obsessed" can be traced back to the forced migration of Africans, of all kinds of cultures, at the hands of white imperialists. Slaves don't value education. Slaves don't value success, or political ambition. They aren't allowed to. In fact, they are forced not to. That couldn't possibly be a stumbling block to the success of Black-Americans today, though, could it? No way. They're just LAZY.</p>

<p>Point the third: Affirmative Action is not about "avenging slavery" or any of the paranoid notions that white people come up with. It's about recognizing that, due to the fact that America has been steered by white hands for, oh, the entirety of its history, minority groups find themselves at a disadvantage in American society through no fault of their own. Thus, efforts are taken to rectify this imbalance: they are given some amount of preference in college admissions. Content yourself with the knowledge that, had that black kid been white, she would have beaten you anyway. Ultimately, Affirmative Action is not about "white people suck," no matter how butthurt you are over not getting into your top choice. Affirmative Action is about "non-white people get a raw deal. thus, they get some benefits in hopes of allowing them to succeed at their full potential, unhindered by racist assumptions and stumbling blocks, thus causing those racist assumptions and stumbling blocks to gradually disappear."</p>

<p>And now to address some specific comments:</p>

<p>ninja.or.love: "coronaryay, your comments were completely insensitive and deplorable. How many college students today were forced to go to segregated schools with no funding, use separate facilities, or were lynched?"</p>

<p>Completely missed the point. I said that many college students' grandfathers faced those things. It's trying to point out that real, obvious, vicious racism is not that far behind us. So why do some of us insist that, because the Civil Rights Act was passed, everything's peachy keen?</p>

<p>alamode: "Jews were discriminated against at nearly the same levels as blacks: they were shunned from society and banned to jobs as bankers/loaners, which were looked down upon because they were meddling with money, which was against biblical beliefs"</p>

<p>And whoops! They got rich. Anti-Semitism, while a real force in America, was never expressed with nearly as much violence or gusto as black racism. For example, how many Jews were lynched for whistling at a Christian woman? Also, please remember that we're talking about America, not Renaissance Europe. Or the Merchant of Venice.</p>

<p>My Cat Rocks: "These minorities aren't ridiculed for not making an effort to be a better student because they already have made that effort. Maybe other benefactors of affirmative action should too rather than complain they aren't being coddled enough."</p>

<p>Oh yeah, because THIS statement isn't racist at ALL. Not one bit. I will point out, again, that all the people you mentioned made the conscious choice to come to America, or their parents did. They have an intact cultural heritage to draw on. Nobody's going to jeer them for "acting white." They aren't constantly being shown that the face of crime is the same color as their own. </p>

<p>And oh, yeah. "Whitey." What a powerful racial slur, with all kinds of historical venom behind it. It has so often been hurled at the broken body of a beaten white man. It has so often been used to deride a young white child. It has so often demeaned women. In fact, it has demonized and demeaned an entire subset of the population, rained down on them by callous oppressors who exploit them for the mere fact of their skin color.</p>

<p>Oh wait, oops, no it hasn't. I'm glad I managed to offend you with a completely toothless jibe.</p>

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Slaves don't value education. Slaves don't value success, or political ambition.

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<p>What a slavist.</p>

<p>funneh! (why the hell do my messages have to be at least 10 characters)</p>

<p>If I didn't have to pseudo-plagiarize a "Midsummer Night's Dream" critique right now, I would refute all your arguments. But calling you a slavist works in the mean time.</p>