I Hate Affirmative Action!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Applying to College
41

<p>yes, xokandykyssesox gives my point exactly. AA was made for people who are disadvantaged due to financial, living in the ghetto, etc problems. giving huge disadvantage to asians, who simply work harder than others. why are asians stereotype smart/geeks? its not genetics.. just like being african or native american = stupid isnt true, its all based on environment.</p>

<p>i wouldnt mind giving up my spot in college for some black girl who lost her brother in a gang fight, and both parents making minimum wage, and she still manged a 3.5GPA/1450 SAT.. but i mean, if i lost MY spot, as a not-so-well-off asian, to a black guy with a 3.5/1500 who lives in a mansion in La Jolla and can afford anything in the world.. i am seriously ****ed off. (and most of the time, the latter is the case.)</p>

42

<p>Oh my goodness, snap out of it. The number of miniorities at top colleges is pathetic compared to the vast number of rejects. Chances are, even without AA you would still be a reject with a chip on your shoulder. Thirty years from now no one's going to give a crap about where you went to college, so go where you got in and make the most of it. Honestly, look at 'The Apprentice', two of the three finalists didn't even go to college!</p>

<p>I don't know where this trend of displacing the blow of rejection started, but it needs to stop. In 99.999% of admissions decisions you were rejected because you were mediocre and someone had some 'edge' over you (being poor, being a urm, curing cancer, etc). As much as you all value those high test scores you paid big bucks for, they aren't everything and you need to realize you can't blame everyone else when something goes your way. No matter how gipped you feel you will not be able to explain away a bad college performance by saying 'well, sir, if I'd been accepted into HARVARD instead of <em>insert your favorite less prestigious university here</em> then I most certainly would have had better grades and been more motivated, it's all AA's fault!'</p>

<p>Finally, most of you bashing AA have absolutely no clue why it was formed, on what basis, or the previous atrocities committed which sparked it's formation. All you see is the 'now' without seeing the 'why'. There's a reason why a 1550 is a 'wow' for an african-american/native-american/hispanic and not so much for an asian, and it's not lack of motivation in these populations. All of you who carefreely express wants of being 'black so that they can get in everywhere', think of it this way, would you be willing to bribe over 500 years of ancestors to be treated like objects for no reward and bred like cattle so you can get a bit of an edge in admissions? Oh wait, if your ANCESTORS went through centuries of owning nothing and knowing nothing besides picking cotton, YOU might not be so affluent as you are now, your PARENTS might be more motivated about getting food on the table than your going to some expensive college, so YOU might not be applying to Harvard in the first place. Oh, darn. And guess what? If you do beat the odds and end up applying, you might not be able to afford that $1k test prep service that bought you that 1500, eh eh?</p>

43

<p>funny... here I was thinking it was the sixty buck registration fee that got me my 1550. Oh that's right, it <em>was</em>. I <em>didn't</em> take any kind of test prep. I don't buy my test scores, and I don't buy your excuses for not matching them.</p>

44

<p>excuse me reddragon... not everybody takes those 1k test prep services... i bought a book (PR)... does that count? cost me near 20 bucks.. oh, and our councillors office and another one from acro or something... i took a practise test there </p>

<p>it is totally lack of motivation for a black kid to get 1200 vs. an asian getting a 1550. puLEASE... u know what... ill bet u not that many asians take prep centers. they just work harder</p>

45

<p>I'd be a little more supportive of affirmative action if it benefited URMs at the expense of Asians and whites but I don't even think it does that.</p>

<p>The injustice it does to poor Asians and whites has already been touched upon. So I won't even go into that.</p>

<p>The problem is that when you place URMs (or anybody else including atheletes) at schools that they don't belong in, they're going to struggle. The only places where the graduation rates of URMs are even within 10% of those of whites/asians are at LAC's or grade-inflated private schools who tend to graduate everyone anyways. The discrepancy between graduation rates is especially pronounced at tough privates like Cornell and public schools like UCLA and Cal where there is no one to hold your hand. It does URMs no service to have them flunk out of college and only perpetuates the myth that they are more lazy/stupid than the rest of the students.</p>

<p>The URMs who get into Harvard or Stanford with 1300 SAT's and 3.6 GPA's are obviously good students but that's simply not a level that's qualified for those schools. Yes, we know about EC's, essays, interviews, etc. While those are important for making a well-rounded person, schools use bare academic stats for a reason: to make a prediction of how well you will do in college. If you accepted Asians with 1300 SAT's into Cal Tech or MIT, they'd struggle as well.</p>

46

<p>You two may not have, but a majority of high scorers have access to some sort of tutoring or take a test prep course. In my dorm every person with a score over 1400 had some sort of expensive tutoring/prep course to prepare them. It is a consequence of having a majority of high-income families attending colleges. If parents have the money, they'll buy the tutoring to get the high scores for their children.</p>

<p>Lack of motivation does NOT explain why only 1,800 some african americans scored above 1350 in my application year while HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of whites and asians made the same scores. It is a cause and effect relationship no matter how much you want to discredit it. I know in my neighbourhood kids weren't even TOLD they were taking the SAT/ACT/PSAT or advised of it's importance. They were just told to show up Saturday for a random test and they never hear about it again. 26% percent of African Americans are below the poverty line, twice the national average. These kids are now returned to bad school systems with the demolition of bussing, with uncaring teachers and counselors who make assumptions that they're 'lazy' as you just did. </p>

<p>Tell me, don't you have relatives and close friends who apply to prestigious unis? Don't you have a plenty of role models of your race to look up to? A family that is aware of the values of education and the tools necessary to achieve is crucial. African Americans do not have this culture yet because we've been only been allowed to 'apply' to prestigious universities for about sixty years. Our role models are mostly athletic, not academic, and it takes time to educate a people that education is now an option. Having a finger chopped off for learning 'A' for about 300 years can have a big impact you know. </p>

<p>I was lucky enough to have a parent who fought the odds and attended college, and she remembers segregation very well. Though I am an exception to the rule I know many bright URMs who don't quite make it. A high test score, though admirable, is not the end-all be all for admissions, nor should it be. Check out the MIT board for the perfect examples. I know my year there was a guy (white, thank you!) with a 1300 SAT but he'd done phenomenal work in physics, and I mean amazing. A 1500 doesn't quite replace that, does it? I would hope not.</p>

47

<p>No person is guranteed 100% success at a university norcalguy, but that's not reason to not let them try.</p>

48

<p>"Uh... lots of people hate legacy"</p>

<p>Well..forgive me, but I don't see many threads saying</p>

<p>I HATE LEGACY!!!!!!!!!!!, and how many black kids with a 1500 do you know living in La Jolla? There's several legacy girls at my school who have scored <1350, who were struggling to decide between Harvard and Yale.</p>

49

<p>I believe AA has far exceeded its original intent. More than color should be considered. We all know very affluent, educated minorities who have just as many advantages as caucasians and asians. I believe that race is one block that should be deleted from college apps. In addition, why so many internationals at our most elite schools? Sorry, but the system has gone too far.</p>

50

<p>How would you like to "try" at Cornell to the tune of $43,000 a year and then flunk out after 2 years?</p>

<p>I attend Cornell and I absolutely hate the fact that among some people there is the perception that blacks here struggle more. What I hate even more is that it's true. At places where no extra help/guidance is given, URMs struggle much more. </p>

<p>Personally, I think help should begin at lower levels (elementary/middle schools). I attended a school that was (and continues to be) 80% black. The kids were awesome (no behavioral/crime problems) but they simply did not do the work for whatever reason. Allowing more blacks into Harvard is not going to help that. Why? For the precise reason that you said, red_dragone. Role models in the black commmunity (and just about every other community except for maybe Asians) are not scholars. They are not Nobel laureates. They are celebrities (movie stars, athletes, etc.). If you want to have some good role models for the kids, force people like Lebron James to attend Harvard, graduate while averaging 50 pts/game in the Ivy League, and then attend the NBA. What Lebron James and Kobe Bryant did set black communities back far more than slavery 150 years ago.</p>

<p>The fact that players who went straight to the NBA have generally been amazingly successful (like Bryant, Garnett, James, McGrady, etc.) doesn't help either. The fact is many young blacks look to college simply as a spring board to the professional leagues. No one graduates any more. If you're not in the NBA or the NFL by the time you're a senior, you're assumed to be not good enough. The people who are looked up to the most are those who left college early or didn't go to college at all.</p>

51

<p>"Legacies have a (possibly) unfair advantage at one school."</p>

<p>Umm..wrong, its not always just one school. At some schools, you can go back further than just mom and dad. My friend's dad went to Harvard, her mom went to Yale, and both grandparents went to Dartmouth. And even if it is just one school, "normal" students that apply there are still put at a disadvantage, which is most people's issue with affirmative action</p>

52

<p>No one likes to try and fail but that's no reason not to let people try at all norcalguy. So are you saying URMs should face increased scrutiny and through examination before being admitted into 'tough' unis? Any given person is likely to fail or succeed but it's certainly not my place to tell them they can't try, especially not just because of test scores.</p>

<p>Uh, a majority of nobel prize winners are white, not asian, not African Americans. Whites have role models of all types and styles to admire, while for African Americans are heavily slated to athletic since we were so long denied academic. There's nothing wrong with Lebron James and Kobe Bryant leaving school early to pursue athletic stardom, people of all races do the same. What's bad is when they're the ONLY example widely available to a people.</p>

<p>I too am for fixing elementary and middle school education. That is, in fact, the solution to this pointless debate. But unfortunately, no one has been eager to do this, so until then AA stays where it is. Once every school in every neighbourhood are comparably excellent then there indeed will be no need for any form of AA, racial, gender, or socioeconomic. But as I said, no one's exactly jumping with enthusiasm to fix that, just slap useless and superficial bills into place that make it seem like a difference is being made. But I won't go there...that's a whole 'nother animal:)</p>

53

<p>Wow i need to start handing out tissues to you people.</p>

54

<p>red_dragone: I agree. Many people argue that AA is a way to "level the playing field" for minorities, however, it is unfair to "level" it only when it comes to higher education. If inner city and rural schools were improved from the beginning, with better funding, more after-school programs, etc., without just "slapping around useless and superficial bills" like you said, the playing field would be much more even, and those students who are not financially well-off, minorities or otherwise, would be closer to reaching an equal level with their more affluent peers.</p>

<p>It's unfortunate that this issue is comparatively overlooked, because while rich minorities seem to be rewarded, the truly deprived inner city and rural students sink lower and lower.</p>

55

<p>HAHAHAHHAH :)</p>

<p>stick w/ what u got , make the best out of it</p>

56

<p>I don't think the lack of rolemodels is a problem. As you have noted, Asians lack rolemodels as well. I was just joking around with a friend of mine the other day about how not a single reaction we've learned this year in organic chemistry was named after an Asian. In fact, I would argue that Asian Americans are far more invisible in pop culture and the media than African Americans or any other ethnicity. </p>

<p>The difference between Asians and African Americans lies in the values of the communities. Education is far less valued in the African American community. The way to remedy this is not to accept blacks into UC Berkeley when they are not ready. If someone fails to graduate from college and wasted $100,000 in doing so, do you think they'll instill the value of education on their children? Therefore, the best solution is to increase URM graduation rates. That means accepting URM's into colleges that they will do the best in. The URMs getting accepted to Harvard or Cornell with subpar SAT scores will still go to college even if they don't get into those schools. It's not Harvard or bust lol The difference is that they are more likely to graduate at a college with students of the same ability.</p>

57

<p>The reason some anti-AA people don't discuss or care about legacies or athletes is that not everyone who is anti-affirmative action is some bitter Asian/white who was rejected from every selective school they applied to. Some anti-AA people are actually looking at this from (gasp!) the URM's perspective and how it affects the way URMs are perceived. Therefore, legacies and athletes don't factor into the equation at all.</p>

58

<p>Asians lack mainstream role models, I agree, but they are also more likely to have more in-family role models than others. I can't find the report online, but in 2002, asian immigrants as a whole were the second-highest phd holders behind african immigrants. Once again, it's my argument that immigrants in general are a self-selecting group. Lazy bums will not get green cards if they live an ocean away, only highly motivated people will and this passes on to their children. </p>

<p>The special evaluation of urms you're suggesting sounds a bit, well undemocrataic I'm sorry. It's impossible to predict the person who will beat the odds and succeed and the ones who will fail. I certainly know people with superior scores to mine that I'm sure you would assume would succeed, who are failing. Because they are lazy and unmotivated, just as some you label urms to be. I, however, am not and am succeeding with my 'subpar' test scores, heavens, an engineer with a low math. I'm sure you would have sent me trucking to some nice top 50 with that system norcalguy;)</p>

<p>And anti-AA Urms shouldn't have to be so. These urms are anti-aa because they're sick of being labeled as 'unworthy' wherever they go and want to prove themselves. The problem is not with AA, it's with the people who made this stereotype in the first place! As Pusha said, let me grab some hankies for you to staunch your tears! Looking for someone to blame for their rejections, people happily settled upon urms, and specifically, blacks, to blame for their rejections. Ahh, racism all over again, how wonderful! And I'm sure the solution is to remove the only vanguard protecting these poor innocents. </p>

<p>Most anti-AAers are hypocritical at best. If you must hate that darned urm who took your place, please spread the wealth. Black people are not alone, they are surrounded by latino/native american/pacific islanders, and oh yea WOMEN. I've said this again and again in such threads, no one has the guts to go gunning for women taking their spots, and last time I checked the 46% women at MIT is a much bigger number than the 8% ethnic minority.</p>

<p>Once early education is fixed, AA will not be necessary. That has not happened, therefore AA stays. It is not 'Harvard or bust' for non-urms either norcalguy</p>

59

<p>just because they weren't told the importance of the test is not a good excuse for scoring low. if u are disagreeing that they are lazy, then they're probably stupid. u know what... nobody told me college was important. i figured that out myself. my parents dont sit there and help me with homework like some typical asian... when i asked my dad for help in 2nd grade, he handed me a dictionary and told me to go figure it out. 


JUST BECAUSE NOBODY FREAKING TOLD ME TO STUDY DONT MEAN IM GONNA BE A DUMBASS AND NOT STUDY.

i was trying to be nice when i used the word lazy, but u asked for it. what do black people do when they get home? play basketball. what do asian people do when they go home? work their ass off for school. please... it takes determination, it takes a will, it takes SELFCONTROL to make yourself stay up until 4:00 am studying when all u can think about is sleep... heck there were plenty of nights when i gave up sleep all together. how many of those 1300 black people do that??? </p>

<p>u know fully well that if u sent a 1550 asian to harvard they would be able to handle it. y waste that spot on somebody who cant?</p>

60

<p>
[quote]
Once early education is fixed, AA will not be necessary.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Certainly, public education is an issue. But another more basic issue is the cohesiveness and work ethic of the family unit. I would be willing to bet that academic success corresponds more to the state of the family unit than to the public school system or even to the economic circumstances in play.</p>