I Hate Myself For Being An Arm Chair Liberal

Parents Forum
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This issue is not dissimilar to the discussion on the engineering forum that questioned whether is was "right" to admit minimally qualified students only to weed them out later.

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<p>This is going to happen to students regardless of race/gender/ geographic background, etc. </p>

<p>Caltech graduates 86% of its non-Urm students as compared to 83% of their black students. </p>

<p>MIT has a 94/81 % graduation rate, CMU has an 82/65 graduation rate (but CMU also falls short with coming up with the $)</p>

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<p>We agree. Of course, I meant the weeding out of <em>any</em> students with poor preparation and qualifications.</p>

<p>Here's the engineering discussion:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/search.php?searchid=2775794%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/search.php?searchid=2775794&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The point I am trying (poorly) to make is that I don't personally think colleges are right to admit students who are unlikely to be successful.</p>

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<p>The athletic edge is far greater than the URM edge for Ivies and little Ivies. Also, many of the athletes at these schools are from wealthy familes and have had endless coaching in lacrosse, tennis, golf, etc. Many (though not all) of the URMs have really struggled. I interview for an Ivy and the URMs I interview, for the most part, do not have parents on CC. They take the SAT once, with little or no prep. Yes they can afford a prep book, but most work many hours at menial jobs, take care of younger kids while mom works shifts, etc. Without URMs campuses are just another white kids club. That is not what America is like today. By the way, many URMs do have the stats to go to Ivies. Also, many of these URMs will go on to be leaders in their communities, and the Ivies want kids who will be leaderes. At leas the one I went to is more interested in getting students who will be successful after graduation, than students with great grades but are "bland" and "getting into an Ivy" is their life's ambition.
At my DDs school, over half the Ivy admits were athletic (the kids are bright but not the absolute top students). Is it really that important for an Ivy to have the top golf team? Swimmers (a B- student got into a top Ivy due to swimming from our school).
I see lots of parents helping their kids with essays, papers, etc. Many URMs don't have educated parents that can do that. They are not starting on a level playing field. Yes it hurts - my DD is not going to my alma mater but probably would if she were a URM, and she definitely would be if she were an athlete or we were fabulously wealthy (these kids generally get in from our school, assuming the students are "in the ballpark" for admit figures.)
But you know what? My daughter is just the same smart , creative kid she always was regardless of where she goes to school. Now I have to go see my boss, who by the way did not get into an Ivy, whereas I did. And he's the boss.
By the way, if you live in Alaska or North Dakota, your child would have a better chance, too.</p>

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<p>"you are talking to someone who didn't graduate from high school-whose mother killed her father when she was 17 and whose daughter goes to an inner city school"</p>

<p>Emerald...</p>

<p>is the above quote yours or were you quoting from someone else? Did your mom kill your dad??? What???? Who???</p>

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<p>my father took an overdose of medication-( he often apparently took meds to help him sleep) I don't know if it was delibrate or accidental- but my mother didn't call for help because she wanted to " teach him a lesson"
IMO that is the same as killing him because she didn't call 911</p>

<p>( he was trying to wake up but couldn't- looked like he was having a seizure- this was during the day- and one of us kids- I don't even remember who - finally came home and called 911- but he went into a coma and died- its possible that if he had gotten help as soon as he was discovered he could have recovered- )</p>

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<p>"If there are lots of high-scoring URMs, and AA isn't about lowering standards, then why do we need AA? All we would need is adcoms who aren't bigots."</p>

<p>It's already been long established here at CC that there ARE NOT lots of high-scoring URMs, if high means above 1400 on the old SAT and 2200 on the new. There are, relative to those applying to the elite schools, many who score above 1200 on the old and 2000 on the new. These are the ones who, along with other demonstrated academic strengths are often given the nod at admissions time. The point that I and others such as Calmom have been trying to make is that admissions decisions of this sort are NOT limited to URM applicants. Many non-URMs are admitted with lower test scores because they are deemed have other mitigating strengths, as well as attributes that would be considered assets to the university's community at large. When such students are white, no one gets their knickers in a twist about the fact that they scored a 1300 instead of a 1500. When the student is a URM, however, that 1300 suddenly becomes the ONLY thing at matters. That's the hypocracy in the arguments of anti-AA detractors that makes me bonkers. Sure there are instances when URMs are admitted with troublingly low stats. I personally have GREAT reservations about their ability to cut the mustard at a competitive institution. But I don't think these types of admissions decisions are the norm. I think that the vast majority of URMs who are admitted, are admitted with respectable stats, stats which prove that they are well able to handle the course work and course load at the schools to which they've been admitted. </p>

<p>My own D, for example, was admitted to Bryn Mawr with a 1300 and a 4.1 GPA. They aren't stats that set the world ablaze, but they are hardly ones to hang your head over, especially given the fact that 25% of the admitted class at BMC that year scored LESS than 1200 on the old SAT. Bryn Mawr, is a school with a reputation of closely examining the WHOLE applicant, and not placing sole emphasis on test scores. Grades and course work are deemed to be much more reflective of academic ability than mere test scores, especially in the case of girls, and the fact that Bryn Mawr is known to be an intense academic environment with zero grade inflation, whose graduates are highly ranked among those most likely to go on to earn a terminal degree, bares this out. My own D is majoring in Physics and doing quite well at BMC. She fully expects to go on to grad school and ultimately, to earn a PhD, like so many of her BMC sisters. Would you feel better, Tourguide, if she were flunking out, thereby vindicating your position? (Btw, since only 4% of the school's population are African American, they can't be said to represent anywhere near the lion's share of that minus 1200 group). </p>

<p>Interestingly enough, there have been many reports here on CC of URMs whose scores are high by any standard, who were rejected by elite universities. Drosselmeier's D is one example, which shows that even in the case of URMs, high scores alone are not an auto-admit stamp. It should be obvious to anyone here that Drosselmeier's D would be a tremendous asset to ANY school (after all, look at her dad). But Harvard rejected her. So they weren't operating on auto-pilot when it came time to make a decision on her application. They didn't say, "Wow, URM with 1550 SAT---Auto-admit!" They saw an application that showed very little shine beyond its stats, and that apparently gave them pause. As Drosselmeier wrote, she played it safe and wrote essays that did little to show how wonderful she really is. I'm extremely gratified to know that this rejection spurred her on to writing apps that honestly represent the person that she is, apps that got her into a number of other elite institutions. </p>

<p>The problem is that there's a myopia at work when it comes minority applicants. I don't think this myopia is a problem with Admissions Committees, but rather with the general public, which often buys wholesale the AA stereotype, that stereotype being that most minority admits are woefully unqualified for their places at the elite institutions, that they need only to be black/hispanic/Native American to be admitted, that they've got nothing beyond their skin color/ethnicity to offer their universities. This kind of simplistic thinking is convenient when you don't want to look closely at the reality of minority admissions at the elites institutions. It makes it ever so much easier to be smug and self-righteous. Problem is, it's an intellectually lazy stance to take, and a dishonest one to boot.</p>

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<p>Ive asked this several times but havent gotten an answer.</p>

<p>Why isn't this about income- education status of parents- rather than only about race?
I am not against AA- but when you see a black student with two parents who graduated from college recieve support that a lower income student whose parents didn't graduate from high school but is white, doesn't recieve- I wonder what can we do to help those students, and why it is so unpopular to help white students who need it.</p>

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<p>It would make sense, emerald, but sense often has little to do with it. And it is not legislated - that is the big difference. Would any middle or upper class URMs with the admission edge like to give it over to a poor rural white with no history of education in the family? Who is really more needy? The mere fact that anybody gets a boost means they are standing on someone else. It can be no other way. </p>

<p>(And yes, this applies to athletes and legacies, too)</p>

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<p>EK:</p>

<p>I don't think it is unpopular to help white students who need a bit of a boost. For example, there is an edge associated with being from under-represented geographical areas; rural background; first-generation; low-income. Some of these may apply to URMs more than to whites, and some may apply to whites more than to URMs.</p>

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<p>Well, that would add to the soc.economic diversity of a univ., but what about the cultural contribution that URMs make? How would that poor rural white kid contribute to making the school more ethnically diverse??? I mean, that's the MOST impt. aspect....right?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Why isn't this about income- education status of parents- rather than only about race? I am not against AA- but when you see a black student with two parents who graduated from college recieve support that a lower income student whose parents didn't graduate from high school but is white, doesn't recieve

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<p>I don't understand your statement as first generation and low income students are both tip factors in the admissions process as you have been on the board and read the postings about the ivies having initiatiatves, in place for low income students. In addition to very generous need based financial aid, to my knowlege the Ivies all have initiatives in place for low income students: We have read about the programs at HYP and Penn,</p>

<p>Dartmouth</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/apply/generalinfo/news/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/apply/generalinfo/news/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Brown- Sidney Frank endowed scholarship fund:</p>

<p><a href="http://financialaid.brown.edu/Cmx_Content.aspx?cpId=19%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://financialaid.brown.edu/Cmx_Content.aspx?cpId=19&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Columbia - OPUS, HEOP (higher education opportunity program) NOP(national opportunity program) </p>

<p><a href="http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/asp/programs/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/asp/programs/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Cornell- HEOP</p>

<p>Stanford, Williams, Amherst and Princeton which are also part of the questbridge program.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.questbridge.org/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.questbridge.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>IF you go back to my post # 73 for the whole text:</p>

<p>In the amicus brief submitted by Harvard University, Brown University, the University of Chicago, Dartmouth College, Duke University, the University of Pennsylvania, Princeton University, and Yale University in support of the University of Michigan,</p>

<p>The Interest In Racial Diversity Cannot Be Served By Race-Neutral Reliance On Factors, Such As Economic Disadvantage, That Are Already Carefully Considered.</p>

<p>The United States urges (as one solution) that universities look to such factors as special economic hardship instead of race. See U.S. Grutter Br. 24-25. But the decisive fact is that all of the suggested race-neutral factors, and many more besides, already enter into admissions decisions. </p>

<p>Consideration of those factors alone does not achieve the distinctly racial diversity that amici seek in their student bodies. To accomplish that goal, admissions committees must give favorable consideration to minority race in addition to those other factors, not instead of them.</p>

<p>By deliberately tilting individual admissions toward “hardship” students in the hope of thereby selecting a large enough increment of minority students to make up for the losses that would result from race-blind admissions – would be disingenuous at best. Such an approach would in truth be a race based policy and not a race-neutral alternative at all. Indeed, such programs, if adopted to assure increased minority enrollment, would be based on race in a causal sense and would thus raise obvious constitutional questions of their own.</p>

<p>A race-neutral preference for economically disadvantaged students, for example, would admit many more whites than non-whites, because of sheer demographic realities. And, of course, the university interest in admitting minority students goes well beyond just admitting minority students from disadvantaged backgrounds.</p>

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<p>Emeraldkity said: "Ive asked this several times but havent gotten an answer.</p>

<p>Why isn't this about income- education status of parents- rather than only about race?"</p>

<p>AA IS a policy that only applies to race/ethnicity. But there are other policies which apply to non-URMs which effectly give an admissions boost, much in the way that AA does. For instance, economic factors Are seriously considered, as well as variables such as first generation status, physical and LD handicaps, family circumstances and geographical differences. My D knows a number of economically disadvantaged white students at her school. There are probably more low income white students at her school than their are black students of any income level. </p>

<p>What do you believe were the contributing factors involved in you D's admission to Reed? Were they grades and test scores alone?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Well, that would add to the soc.economic diversity of a univ., but what about the cultural contribution that URMs make? How would that poor rural white kid contribute to making the school more ethnically diverse??? I mean, that's the MOST impt. aspect....right?

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No offense to you sbroy, but what do you intend to do to contribute to intercultural understanding besides just being there? Are you essentially different than any white or asian or indian students in your own neighborhood? Many would contend that the socio-economic position of a poor rural kid of any color contributes alot in the way of cultural diversity and understanding. </p>

<p>In my neck of the woods, all of the kids who live in big houses and drive nice cars are essentially the same. All of the kids who go home to undesirable living conditions are similar, but are very different than the rich kids. From what I see, socio-economic position is the divide, rather than ethnicity.</p>

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<p>I think for my older D- her admission to Reed was supported by her excellent K-12 private school education.
Reed College is also well known for taking other criteria into account for admission- 3 essays for one- they don't place much stock in test scores.( her grades and test scores are below their average) I imagine that they also valued the year she took off before college- they expect students to be fairly independent, and being older than the average applicant aids that.
There was never any question that she was going to college
although according to admission- first gen is actually low down on the criteria totem pole. Reed was the only private school she applied to, I don't know if elsewhere the first gen and income would have been more of a boost.</p>

<p>Her sister however, is not attending a private school- she is attending a public school- and they have at least three programs that provide extra support for minority students. Extra tutoring, school and community recognition for their acheivments, scholarships and guidance that continues after school and through summers.</p>

<p>Although she did qualify for one of the programs because of our income and because we didn't attend college- she interviewed but wasn't chosen to participate- no white student participates as far as I have seen.
No explanation was given for the denial, but I had the impression that the interviewer was put off by the fact that she was shy .</p>

<p>Which is a shame, because she needs the support and has documentation to illustrate that. I had her removed from special education, because the district did not respond when I proved that her IEP wasn't legal and she was not making progress- in the hopes that a 504 would be more enforceable.</p>

<p>But because we are white- because I had quit my job so that I could be in the school everyday to try and get her the help she needs, it was assumed that she was "taken care of", and they could turn their attention elsewhere.</p>

<p>We are trying to get her extra help on our own- by paying money that we don't have- but if she had been able to participate in a school program- it would have been at school- it would have given her more connection with teachers and others in the community and it would have been everyday if she needed it.</p>

<p>as it is- we are having to borrow money for her to have tutoring outside of school once a week, with someone who isn't familar with the school, and I don't know how long we can afford to continue paying for extra help.</p>

<p>If students can't get prepared for college- they aren't going to go to college.
I am more concerned about the students who aren't getting the college prep classes they need, and the support to do well in them, than I am about the way colleges select their freshman classes.</p>

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<p>There are many kinds of diversity. A white student from a rural area does bring some diversity to a student body that is heavily drawn from very few regions. Some time ago, it was reported that most Harvard graduates tended to go and live in MA, NY and CA. Not surprising, since that's is also where most of them come from. My S has a floormate from Idaho. that is the first person he's ever met from that state (I don't consider watching Napoleon Dynamite as meeting people from Idaho :) ).</p>

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<p>The study, which challenges much of the conservative thinking about affirmative action, is to be released Wednesday by Princeton University Press in a book titled "The Shape of the River: Long-Term Consequences of Considering Race in College and University Admissions." It was written by two former Ivy League presidents, William Bowen of Princeton University, an economist, and Derek Bok of Harvard University, a political scientist. </p>

<p>Examining grades, test scores, choice of major, graduation rates, careers and attitudes of 45,000 students at 28 of the most selective schools, the authors say that although they are both advocates of race-conscious admissions policies, they wanted to test the assumptions underlying such policies. </p>

<p>The 28 institutions involved in the study were Barnard College, Bryn Mawr College, Columbia University, Denison University, Duke University, Emory University, Hamilton University, Kenyon College, Miami University (Ohio), Northwestern University, Oberlin College, Pennsylvania State University, Princeton University, Rice University, Smith College, Stanford University, Swarthmore College, Tufts University, Tulane University, the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the University of Pennsylvania, Vanderbilt University, Washington University, Wellesley College, Wesleyan University, Williams College and Yale University. </p>

<p>Bowen and Bok say in their book that a "race-neutral" admissions policy would be disastrous for American society, reducing black percentages at top schools to less than 2 percent from the current 7 percent. </p>

<p>The authors call black graduates of elite institutions "the backbone of the emergent black middle class" and say that their influence extends well beyond the workplace. "They can serve as strong threads in a fabric that binds their own community together and binds those communities into the larger social fabric as well." </p>

<p>Black graduates of the colleges were more likely than white graduates to go on to become leaders of community, social-service, and professional organizations. </p>

<p>From what I have seen on Dartmouth's campus, it is the Alpha Phi alpha fraternity (a black frat) who hold book drives and fund raisers annually to ensure that students who don't have/cannot afford books get those books regardless of race. Balcks frats/sororities tend are more service/community oriented vs. partying.</p>

<p>It is the black students along with the middle class white students (not talking about the save face philanthrophy that comes with being part of a frat/sorority) that hosting prospective students on campus, acting as bigsibs and mentors to the others in the surrounding community.</p>

<p>I stand as a URM graduate student in a program where the majority of students , I am just mindboggled at the number of culturally encapsulated students who are looking to counsel others, especially when I hear things like the conversation of one woman in my program telling her friend in the elevator that a cleint came into her office wearing a burka and she freaked out and students saying that they never had a one on one conversation with a person of another race that wasn't related to the classroom.</p>

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<p>
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No offense to you sbroy, but what do you intend to do to contribute to intercultural understanding besides just being there? Are you essentially different than any white or asian or indian students in your own neighborhood?

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</p>

<p>Well, I for one, would like someone like me in as many classes as possible so that the fallout of 450 years of slavery, Jim Crow and racist attitudes can be articulated with passion. I certainly can’t expect whites to do this, and yet I think it needs to be done. It seems impossible for whites to get much of a clue about how incredibly dense the consequences of history are. So, were I choosing a class, I’d like to have at least a few respectable scoring blacks in every class to keep the truth around us, just in case we should decide to wake up and hear it for a change.</p>

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<p>I’ll tell yall something. Dartmouth needs to give Sybbie a standing ovation and possibly a cushy job on its admissions staff. My D received a likely letter from Dartmouth sometime ago and so I started reading everything I could about Dartmouth here. Most of that reading came from Sybbie, and since she is black, with a D at Dartmouth, the info really had meaning for me. All I can say is, I am leaning hard in the Dartmouth camp almost completely because of what this fine woman has posted here for everyone. My D doesn’t listen to me anymore (just kidding), and I won’t know where she will be attending school until she mails her responses away. But if she chooses Dartmouth, I will be one VERY happy camper.</p>

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<p>Maybe it just varies by region or neighborhood, but the black students who live around here are like most teenagers...just trying to do their best, to have some fun and make the most of their lives. I don't get the impression that any of them spend time educating their classmates on their racial past. Slavery doesn't come up during math class. Maybe it should, but it doesn't.</p>

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Slavery doesn't come up during math class.

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But it will after the class, but only if there are blacks around to make it happen.</p>