I Hate Myself For Being An Arm Chair Liberal

Parents Forum
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<p>I can relate to SBDad ... here's my version of possibly being an arm chair liberal.</p>

<p>I'm basically claim to be a flaming liberal when it some to women's issues such as abuse and rape ... heck a month ago a defense attorny used one of his preemptive (sp?) challenges to toss me from a jury because of my commitment to women's organizations ... so what happens ...</p>

<p>A thread on CC starts about the alledged rape at Duke starts up and almost all my posts come down on the side of "let's wait for the case to play out" ... when a real case occurs and some generalizations hit home (I have a lacrosse playing son) my supposed liberal leanings seem to have disappeared ... so what's with that?</p>

<p>So SBDad I understand how you feel ... and I think we end up in this spot because in the abstract issues are easy to define and seem to be cut and dried ... while the real cases make both sides real and often tend more towards the center (at least for me)</p>

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<p>I want to double major in Economics and perhaps Finance. Not sure which school would be better - Dartmouth or Berkeley</p>

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<p>toomanychoices:</p>

<p>LOL!</p>

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<p>Berkley as Dartmouth does not have a finance major.</p>

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<p>poetsheart:</p>

<p>Thanks for the wonderful words! But don't worry. I wasn't chastising you. I was just trying to GENERALLY lower the heat so we can talk about stuff.</p>

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<p>(Oh. I thought toomanychoices was just making fun of us. You know. Here we are swords clashing and guns ablazin'. Then out of the blue he pops up and asks "Dartmouth or Berkeley. Which shall I choose"? Just seemed really funny to me. Oh well.)</p>

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<p>Epiphany:</p>

<p>
[quote]
She didn't attack "my" ideas, Drosselmeier. She attacked a phantom, a distortion of my ideas. Big difference.

[/quote]

Okay, but c’mon. Let’s lighten the thing up. You are getting very upset—as if she attacked you, when by your own admission she just attacked a distortion of your views. She probably thinks she really attacked your views. So, all you have to do is point out that she is saying stuff you didn’t say and then let her respond to what you really said. Sometimes we miss mess because we get ticked by what we think we are hearing. So, lets just not get all worn out about this.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm calling her on it; I'm calling <em>you</em> on it, now. I was reporting a perception -- correct or not correct as that perception may be. Neither one of you has addressed that in an appropriate & intellectual manner.

[/quote]

Alright. I’ll try. I’m not sure this particular issue is really that important to me because if whites feel closer to Asians than they do to blacks, well, it is just no big deal to me. But I’ll try to take a stab at it if that is what you wish.</p>

<p>You said (and pretty darned categorically, epiphany) that</p>

<p>“Caucasians consider educated Asians to be more like themselves than different. It's not that the cultural differences are not recognized, but there's a reality of certain <em>key</em> shared values & lifestyles, which, while not comprehensive, tend to make the 2 groups more similar than dissimilar. That view, right or wrong, also appears to be shared by college admissions committees.”</p>

<p>All calmom is saying is that you really can’t say this in so blanket a way because she is white and often feels closer to blacks than she does to Asians, especially since she and Asians are often separated by language barriers. She is pointing out that this is probably the case for a ton of whites, maybe even the majority of whites. I know this has been my experience.</p>

<p>I take my kids fishing, sometimes on a pier where all kinds of people fish. It just never fails that when the white guys show up with their kids, they will ALWAYS come to me and we will hang out, sometimes all day long, shootin’ the mess, and just generally talking sports or kids or work or other stuff. There will be Asians all around, educated Asians, and the whites will hardly talk to them at all, probably because the Asians are doing their Asian stuff, which the white guys likely have no clue about. Also, the white guys will just assume that, you know, me being a guy, I like sports. So, since they are guys, we usually end up talking stuff like football, baseball, golf or whatever. I have experienced this all the time. In fact, I have NEVER had it where the white guys felt more comfortable hanging out with Asians. It has ALWAYS been my experience that they hang out with me. The same holds true when there are Hispanics around. But maybe that is just my experience. Personally, I really don't care who whites feel most comfortable with. I'm just out to have a good time.</p>

<p>But I think calmom hit the nail right on the noggin’ and I think her position is probably more the case than yours – at least that is how it seems to me. She wasn’t attacking a distortion of your view as far as I can tell. She was attacking your belief that whites and educated Asians have this affinity for one another due to similarity in <em>key</em> aspects of lifestyles. I think the truth is, whites and blacks actually are closer to each other than to everybody else (and this probably is more attached to class than to most anythin else), which is shocking to me and amazingly funny, now that I think about it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I've actually been very civil -- & as I will repeat -- a lot more civil, & a lot more broad-minded & less reactive, less insulting, less "personal," than many many posters on this thread, & many particular posts therein. I take no responsibility for the OP leaving the thread, &, as I have mentioned, I have continued my conversation with him on the side.

[/quote]

Well then please forgive and not be angry, and please tell SBDad to forgive. The guy has to just let us off the hook here. You know, things just got outta hand. It happens.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I truly resent the implication that I am somehow not contributing to the concepts of open, free, intellectual debate. No, you haven't said that specifically -- merely been more tangential than that.

[/quote]

Hmmm. I didn’t even have you in mind when I posted epiphany. I was talking more about me than about anyone else. But I gotta say, it seems you are holding a grudge against me after I have apologized. Now I need you to let me off the hook here. What you need to do is just say, “ok. No problem. Let’s just forget it and get back to the issues.” I’m telling you I have nothing against you personally, though I may have sounded like I did. To tell you the truth, I just think you are wrong on the issue – at least by my experience. But I haven’t really read any polls on the thing. Maybe I am basically wrong and that my experience is just part of some regional phenomenon or something (but I don’t think so, because I’m telling you the thing happens to me ALL THE TIME! And it happens in different places too. I never really thought about it before now.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Great: you agree with calmom. I do not. I think her response was completely inappropriate. As an alert attorney would say in the courtroom (to her long rant): "non-responsive, Your Honor."

[/quote]

Okay. Well I agree just because her experience has been exactly my own. But you obviously see the thing differently. I’d like you to show me WHY you see it differently. Is it your own experience, or did you read a poll? I honestly don’t think calmom was attacking you. She was just ranting away at your belief, which she thinks is ‘wrongheaded and unsupported.’ She didn’t use these terms, but it seems she is just as forcefully against your view (but not against you).</p>

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<p>Drosselmeir, I know you weren't specifically chastening me, but I felt indicted by my own heart. So I'd like to thank you for making me step back and re-examine my own behavior in this discussion.</p>

<p>I would like to apologize to SBdad also. SBdad, if you're reading this, I sincerely am sorry. I antagonized you and challenged you like you were "the enemy" or something, when you were just being honest about your conflicted feelings. You're human, and human beings often have conflicted emotions on lots of issues, both great and small. Instead of being sarcastic, I should have expressed admiration for your honesty. I'm doing that now. I truly DO admire your honesty. I believe you are a good human being deserving of respect, and I humbly ask that you return to this discussion, if you have any will to do so. I promise to treat your perspectives with respect, and if we disagree, to ofter my own perspectives with civility. This apology goes out to anyone else that I may have offended with my admittedly, sometimes self-righteous attitudes. As Drosselmeier said, if we all enter this discussion with open hearts and minds, maybe we'll come to understand one another a little bit better.</p>

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<p>epiphany, I didn't attack you, I attacked statements that I found to be extremely offensive as well as insensitive to the others posting here. </p>

<p>In the context of a discussion focused largely on blacks and black history, you wrote Caucasians consider educated Asians to be more like themselves than different. and
* there's a reality of certain <em>key</em> shared values & lifestyles, which, while not comprehensive, tend to make the 2 groups more similar than dissimilar.* </p>

<p>I am sorry, but it completely eludes me to try to understand what differentiates the highly educated African-American parents who post on this board from the Asian ones. So given the fact that these people are here and listening, I find it particularly offensive that essentially you have said to Drosselmeir, Poetsheart, Sybbie, and Northstarmom that they can't be a member of the "shared values and lifestyles" club that Asians have been admitted to. What is it that separates them other than the color of their skin? Their SAT scores???</p>

<p>I don't think you are a racist, but you posted what I found to be a very insensitive remark and I would like you to think about it rather than defending it as something "passed on" by others. (You wrote: I was passing along a viewpoint of other educators, expressed to me, an educator, that are useful as a point of understanding how an educational population is sometimes perceived by those in admissions offices.) Someone once "passed on" to me the opinion that my son would not be happy at the high school he had chosen to attend because it had "too many people of color"... when another good friend, who taught at that high school, also expressed the opinion that a different, predominantly white high school would be a better "fit"... I quit asking for opinions from my white friends. </p>

<p>Maybe if ideas like this didn't persist - and if the perpetuation of them wasn't seen as innocuous - then we wouldn't need affirmative action. Right now it is precisely those sort of ideas that remain a continual barrier to black students.</p>

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<p>There is a big difference between a poor white and a poor black. Let's say they both go to Harvard and work on Wall Street. The poor white now is treated just like his colleagues. But the black can't change his skin. He still doesn't get picked up by taxis, gets followed in stores, gets stopped by the police when driving in a white suburb,etc. If having the same amount of money makes whites and blacks equal, why don't we see many whites moving into black middle class neighborhoods which have good housing values? Because the whites don't want to be a "minority" - they know it's harder. The only way to combat prejudice is to have people of all colors "mix it up" and learn we're all people. It's easy to say but harder to do and college is one place it happens.
I also think this discussion is a disservice to the many minorities who did not need the "bump".
Let's make college admissions fair. Parents are not allowed to help their kids with homework in high school ever, or even look at it. No tutors. SAT prep books banned. All students only allowed to take the SAT once. College is free (yeah!) and no one is allowed to donate to a University, so being rch can't help. All applications are done by social security number only and no address is allowed (so no geographic diversity can come into play). National Merit cutoff scores are the same for every state, and it goes on and on.</p>

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<p>To Poetsheart & Drosselmeier -- while I understand Drosselmeir's well-intentioned attempts to tone things down, I also have to say that I really appreciate the frank and open discussion about the eperience of race and racial issues that we have been able to have hear. I am sorry if we have scared off the OP -- but I for one find it valuable to listen to you relate your own experiences and feelings.</p>

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<p>Wow Catherine, I hadn't even thought of the difficult problem that poor parents and kids without any parental support face at the simple price of paying to take the SAT a number of time and taking the achievement tests. And those are among the smaller difficulties. You are right, and we can only hope that colleges do an even better job of leveling the playing field. I am going to read your other posts.</p>

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<p>Oh, the OP is still here.</p>

<p>I've really learned a great deal from the insightful and passionate posts.</p>

<p>I just thought my overly numerical way of looking at things was more a distraction to the ideas than a benefit, so I'm sitting quietly on the sidelines.</p>

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<p>I too appreciate the discussion here, but prefer to be an observer rather than an active participant because of some of the charged rhetoric and the fact that some posters won't respond to what is actually being communicated, but prefer to erect and then tear down a straw man instead. Maybe this is a microcosm of the problems in the larger society in which people want to avoid conversation that might have anything to do with race for fear of being misunderstood and labeled racist or accused of "playing the race card". The result is a lack of meaningful conversation between people of different races and, therefore, alienation from one another.</p>

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<p><<<< So SBDad I understand how you feel ... and I think we end up in this spot because in the abstract issues are easy to define and seem to be cut and dried ... while the real cases make both sides real and often tend more towards the center (at least for me) >>>></p>

<p>I think that is why the older people get, the less "abstract" things become, the more "conservative" people tend to get (moving either from "far left towards the left of center" or "center to right"). </p>

<p>(I know that my ultra-left wing sis-in-law & bro-in-law moved to just "left of center" after they graduated from college and both got their first "real jobs" and saw how much taxes they had to pay. And, who is that FICA person???? My hubby likes to tease them and say that they got mugged by liberalism. LOL )</p>

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<p>Considering my age and station and life, I pretty well defy your impressions of liberals turning conservative jlauer, but perhaps that is beside the point.</p>

<p>I do think, after having read this thread unfold for many days, that the very reason we need affirmative action is because there is clearly a strong sense of entitlement and superiority among many white people in this country. </p>

<p>Challenging stereotypes and ideology of racism bring one right back to the same conclusion...that stereotypes exist because they are backed by some kernal of truth. To me, this thread simply bears this out.</p>

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<p>-All Music-</p>

<p>My post had NOTHING to do with "a strong sense of entitlement and superiority among many whites in this country." Your statement, my friend, is racist and bigoted.</p>

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<p>LOL! and LOL again!</p>

<p>The thread in general, Jlauer, exhibits entitlement and superiority. </p>

<p>To you, I was only expressing my personal experience and opinion that not everyone fits into your box of moving towards conservatism as they age.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Challenging stereotypes and ideology of racism bring one right back to the same conclusion...that stereotypes exist because they are backed by some kernal of truth.

[/quote]

Really? So you are suggesting that all stereotypes are backed by a kernal of truth? Or just the stereotypes of the people groups that you don't agree with?</p>

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<p>-allmusic-</p>

<p>I don't expect everyone to fit into a generalization -- everyone rarely fits into a generalization. </p>

<p>As far at the thread goes -- I still don't think that it displays a sense of white superiority or entitlement. </p>

<p>But I do think that that your statement is racist because it makes a generalization by RACE.</p>