I Hate Myself For Being An Arm Chair Liberal

Parents Forum
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<p>jlauer:</p>

<p>I was not addressing you! :) I was replying to Epiphany who saw fit to give a lecture based on faulty reading of other people's posts. </p>

<p>It is most instructive that Epiphany assumes that geographical diversity is a value only at northeastern institutions and only gives an edge (an edge, not a hook, mind you) at those schools. Schools in other parts of the country also give an edge to applicants from the NE and other regions as well, for the sake of diversifying their student bodies and the perspectives and experiences they bring to the community. Geographical diversity depends on where a school is located and where a student hails from. BOTH factors are in play. There is absolutely no presumption on anyone's part--certainly not mine--that students from the NE are in any way superior to students from elsewhere. </p>

<p>But to address Jonri's point: If you are applying to a NE school, it is not an advantage to be from the Mid-Atlantic states or CA or NE unless you are also from a rural background (most applicants are from cities and suburbs). However, it is probably an advantage if you are applying to schools in the Midwest. I'm not the first person to mention this, by the way.</p>

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<p>Wow, yeah, I agree with what epiphany said in his/her long lecture.</p>

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<p>So my D might lose "her" spot to someone who is:</p>

<p>more athletic
more musical
more community-spirited
more religious
richer
poorer
smarter
a legacy
a foreigner
of a different race
of a different culture
male</p>

<p>but I won't assume she lost it to someone who is:</p>

<p>of a different race</p>

<p>though some would. That <em>might</em> be the reason, but it is most likely one of the others. Various parents might be angered more by some reasons than others (if at all) if there <em>were</em> some way to know the reason in our own child's case. More athletic and more religious would tend to bother me, but that's my bias. It is actually more likely that a given student was not in contention in the first place.</p>

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<p>You say:
"NM status is based on the state that the school is IN --- Not where the kid comes from."</p>

<p>I don't think so. That was the rule a long time ago, but the kids from public schools in the State of New Hampshire got KILLED. The population is relatively low and there are several top boarding schools. The end result was that over half of the NMSFs each year in New Hampshire were out of state kids at the boarding schools. </p>

<p>So, rule was changed to be based on the state you are from. So, at the same school, there are different results for kids with identical scores. The kids at boarding schools whine about THAT now. </p>

<p>Now, it may have changed back to the old system in the last 5 years, but not as far as I know. But even taking the boarding schools out of it, why should a kid at a private high school in Indiapolis, say Park Tudor, qualify for NMSF with a lower score than a kid in a public high school in DC?
NMSF status IS based just on the score--AND GEOGRAPHY--nothing else. </p>

<p>And , if you don't think geographic diversity hurts certain groups, you are a little naive. Under Hagadon, Princeton emphasized geographic diversity FAR more than Harvard or Yale--and half the % of Jews as a result. Stanford takes over half its students from California---and as a direct result has a student body which is over 25% Asian-Americans. Jews and Asians aren't evenly distributed over the US. I'm not arguing that colleges emphasize geographic diversity because it hurts certain groups--just that it ends up hurting certain groups IN THE AGGREGATE. </p>

<p>I'm not whining, BTW.( My kids are older and through college now and did just fine. )My point is just that AA is not the only kind of diversity in college admissions that can impact individual kids unfairly.</p>

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<p>Vossron:</p>

<p>LOL. I would amend your list to: "</p>

<p>but I won't <em>a priori</em> assume she lost it to someone who is:</p>

<p>of a different race.</p>

<p>I do think that ethnicity can be an edge/tip/whatever. But it is not the only one. It also depends on location. At Bowdoin and Bates which are located in an overwhelmingly white state, we were told that Asian-Americans had an edge. I would assume that that would not be the case in CA where some UC campuses have 1/3 to 1/2 Asian-American students.
In fact, reading up on ethnicity at various colleges, it would appear that Asian-Americans are counted as minorities to increase the appearance of diversity, though they may not be given an edge in the application process (at least, not that I know of). At those colleges, the single largest group of minority students may in fact be made up of Asian-Americans rather than African-Americans or Hispanics.</p>

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<p>The qualifying score for NMF is set by the percentage of high scorers in each state. In the case of NMF and DC, I've heard that the NMF standard for qualifying is set high because so many private school kids take the PSAT (and so few public school kids do). As a result, few public school students can hope to qualify. A chicken and egg issue.</p>

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<p>As you will notice I am new to posting here. I have lurked forever and have great admiration for the posters, the level of consideration and support especially that you give to the kids of this c-community. I read this thread for hours and the urge to add my 2c was great. For the most part I found your encouraging.
I will simply say to no one in particular that statistics and studies can also not tell the whole story. </p>

<p>Back at the 100s posts a dad talked of his "black daughter" and his ambivalence to the AA principle ..how moving. But further back to the 2/3 post I, wanted to tell 'his story' for myself and hundreds of other black families whose 'little black s/d" have worked their tails off ala mainstream America, they have scored high as world citizens and collage applicants... great SATs high GPAs, stellar ECs and accomplishments, some inspite of hard-knock lives, other without. The class of2010 will see them...in lesser quantities to their white counterparts, but each of them will immediately conjure up thoughts os AA, lesser qualifications and all the other feelings, mainstream holds as god-given truths about them.
My precious child will hold close in her bearings that a conscientious mother worked tirelessly to afford educating her when she was reading at a 6th grade level in the 1st grade and was running close to being overlooked by the teacher. ( I moved her to a private school here but all was not solved)
Here we worked with the first lesson a parent in my situation has to communicate to a child...[ that] to work 2x as hard to gain half as much... A theory most white americans still ask "why? I don't understand" whenever they hear it said. For me it was observing the grading for example of an essay vs, a math assignment for a black and white child in the same class. Before everyone jumps on this it is an observation I have made over and over and even validated once when essays were graded by people who didn't know the writers, a kid indicating their ethnicity was almost sure to get a lower grade than if they did not. D graduated her 8th gr class top 3 and top girl. After having a selection of all tony NE prep schs she’s gone on to perform consistently. (here As aren’t frivolous and the honor roll means you are outstanding)</p>

<p>With top scores in the May 05 SATs, she wanted to apply ED to her #1 college, but I discouraged this simply because I knew we would need more to arm ourselves with upon college matriculation... so after applying RD to 11 top schools and receiving early-writes, and final admissions to 8; for the record flat out rejection from Brown, one of the 4 ives she applied to, she can strongly believe she is no charity case, no token, no none of what others feel. She comes to her college career as; a Merit scholar, an accomplished pianist, star tennis player, horse jumping, ice-skating, leading field hockey player... caring community server and more than all a great human being. The beauty about this is not just her but that there are tens of black children who are better and more accomplished than her coming out of private and public schools into the elite college arenas.
In this group I know of one african american young woman a violinist who is first chair of one of the most prestigious boarding schools- (nearly un-heard of) </p>

<p>It is painful for me a mother because my goal was not Ivy League, just simply make the most of your opportunities and give your best effort...I tried to make her aware that there are numerous statistics that one can fit into- seek those to which you can gain value for your existence. </p>

<p>My D has never, not felt the burden of having to explain the new black Diaspora... should she now resort to wearing labels to dispel the notion that she has earned- by hard work her acceptance to such colleges. </p>

<p>There is some anger in me, not because intellectually I don't understand how everyone wants the best for their children, but against the reality that we do not control this process, and hard as we try until we agree that the URM does not automatically mean black and unqualified, we are sending our children the wrong message. </p>

<p>The reason time is so fundamental to evolution is that we make discoveries and adjust our utilizing of such. The national social and welfare programs AA included is one such, and 30 years ago this issue was null and void. Now a process to enable more-prepared citizens of every race and creed will only improve the over-all conditions of all.
Eventually like every other group given a chance to emerge via the process (even slowly) more children will be fitting into this group. Is the grumble I hear one that ask the establishment to hold that back? Keep them out? Lend more despair? keep filling the jails? We cannot have our cake and eat it too!</p>

<p>I know the problem is deeper than this, but it a scary prospect when we are sending the next great World leaders off to halls of thinking where such thoughts emanate from closed-mind We owe it to ourselves TO allow our children to bring behaviors and ideas that will bring changes of improvement to this great nation.</p>

<p>All said I have learned much from this community- I highly recommend to other parents (most of them white) :)
this lengthy post makes up for all the days I never did....
Peace</p>

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<p>At the elite schools, the biggest group of kids who get in that would not get in based purely on merit are white males. Without class makeup engineering, these schools would be what? 40% Asian and 65% female?</p>

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<p>beprepn:</p>

<p>"At the elite schools, the biggest group of kids who get in that would not get in based purely on merit are white males. Without class makeup engineering, these schools would be what? 40% Asian and 65% female?"</p>

<p>The top SAT scorers are BY FAR disproportionately male. I am not sure on what data you are basing your percentages.</p>

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<p>marite,
I wasn't even addressing you. Sorry if you thought I was addressing you, but methinks it was you doing the faulty reading.<br>
You also misunderstood my point about geog. diversity. The poster I was addressing was the one whining about NE location being a liability for <em>NE</em> schools. It is correct that the geog. edge depends both on location from & location to, so directionality is the issue. However, jlauer is correct: "There is a huge disproportionate # of NE kids who attend those top tier NE colleges that [the poster] claims are so much harder for NE kids to get into." The evidence bears this out. Look at any facebook which lists regions of origin, schools of origin, yadayada. My D has been calling admitted students last week & this week; they're <em>all</em> from the NE.</p>

<p>It is a rural location which can favor an accomplished student from any location, including from the NE, btw, & <em>that</em> has been proven true in recent (this round) admissions. (My D is from a metro region, just in case anyone think she had an "unfair" advantage.) In fact, very large numbers applied to NE schools from our very dense metro region; few were admitted.</p>

<p>Thank you, DiamondT, All Music, & jlauer.</p>

<p>For those who don't like lectures, tough. Some of you had it coming. The long post from schleasmom bears out the points I've been trying to make, & some others have been trying to make, for months. No need to repeat her points, which merely validated mine.</p>

<p>Separately, though, this is a point that I think DiamondT made earlier. It is also a point I've made to students. A "qualification" is determined by the institution or entity being sought -- whether in an educational, employment, athletic, etc. arena. It is not determined by the applicant or the applicant's family. Colleges & U's, <em>including</em> top-tier, have determined at least over the last several yrs., that e.c.'s -- their category, their level, the sincerity shown in commitment to them -- are extremely important qualifications. They often look at them with more interest than they look at a score. It is far more of an indication of the level of drive that student has, than a bleepin score is. They don't look upon them as compensating factors, or as rationalizations for admitting people from certain ethnic groups, certain areas of the country, etc. They look upon them as qualifications, even as litmus tests.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The poster I was addressing was the one whining about NE location being a liability for <em>NE</em> schools. It is correct that the geog. edge depends both on location from & location to, so directionality is the issue. However, jlauer is correct: "There is a huge disproportionate # of NE kids who attend those top tier NE colleges that [the poster] claims are so much harder for NE kids to get into." The evidence bears this out. Look at any facebook which lists regions of origin, schools of origin, yadayada. My D has been calling admitted students last week & this week; they're <em>all</em> from the NE.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I agree with the whiner. Of course, there are more students from the NE applying to NE schools, just as there are more CA students applying to CA schools. The difference between NE and CA schools is that NE schools tend to be private while CA schools are public. The admissions pool is bound to reflect the character of the applicant pool to a significant degree. But the rate of admissions for students from the NE may not match the rate of applicants from the NE. </p>

<p>Don't forget as well that the same areas, because the schools used until recently to be regional rather than national magnets, are full of alumni. Certain Boston suburbs are also full of children of faculty. These two groups have an edge over applicants with no legacy status or faculty parent. </p>

<p>Tne only way that NE schools are going to try to achieve geographical diversity is by giving an edge to applicants from rural backgrounds. All things being equal, these students will have an edge over those from NE urban areas. This is not to suggest that students from rural backgrounds are inferior. But an unhooked student from, say Lexington, MA, may be well be passed over in favor of an applicant from Wyoming or Montana.</p>

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<p>marite,
I don't know what you mean by "CA schools tend to be public." Do you understand that there are plenty of private and public high schools in CA, as there are also private & public colleges, and that graduates of the former apply to both public & private colleges in CA and the NE? </p>

<p>It is extremely challenging to be admitted to a NE college, esp. top-tier, from any h.s. in CA. There are a few East-coast recognized CA public high schools, but not even vaguely proportional (esp. given CA's student population) to the East Coast public schools that are recognized back there. Bluebayou's son went to one, for example; that one is in SoCal. His son was admitted to Dartmouth.</p>

<p>HYP is a huge challenge. Generally, in a senior class of ~400 students, there can be 1-4 HYP admits from a very high quality school if those students are unusually accomplished. That does not compare to E.Coast numbers of admittees. However, in one such CA school this yr., with very high-performing students, there were no acceptances to any Ivies, despite the individual achievements of the graduates. A student from CA has to be really set apart for a top-tier E.Coast admissions committee to sit up & take notice.</p>

<p>When it comes to private schools, far fewer CA private schools have recognition along the East Coast than is true for the NE. So if anything, a CA student can be "condemned" or marginalized at least, by one's h.school's lack of reputation (not necessarily bad reputation).</p>

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<p>Sorry, I was not clear. By schools, I meant colleges, not high schools. UCs, being public, must reflect more closely the population of CA than do private ones; the Northeast, by contrast, has more private coleges and universities which have, for several decades now, considered geographical diversity an important consideration (hard to remember how sleepy and preppy Harvard Square was 40 years ago).
More NE students apply to NE colleges; that is reflected in the admissions results. But since NE colleges wish to foster regional diversity as well as applying criteria favoring certain groups of applicants (legacy, children of faculty, residents of the communities where the colleges are located) an unhooked applicant not from a community where the college to which s/he is applying will be at a disadvantage vis-a-vis applicants from these groups.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
It is extremely challenging to be admitted to a NE college, esp. top-tier, from any h.s. in CA. There are a few East-coast recognized CA public high schools, but not even vaguely proportional (esp. given CA's student population) to the East Coast public schools that are recognized back there. Bluebayou's son went to one, for example; that one is in SoCal. His son was admitted to Dartmouth.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Following NYS (with the majority coming from NYC) the largest population at Dartmouth hails from MA. and then CA (these 3 states make up close to 40 % of the attending class).</p>

<p>I think that there are a lot of california students in east coast schools.</p>

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<p>marite wrote: "The difference between NE and CA schools is that NE schools tend to be private while CA schools are public."</p>

<p>Huh? The top public CA schools: Cal, UCLA, UCSD, UCD, UCI, UCSB. The top privates: CalTech, Stanford, USC, Pomona, Claremont McKenna, Harvey Mudd, Scripps, Occidental.</p>

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<p>Sybbie:</p>

<p>More or less same thing at Harvard: New England, Mid-Atlantic states and CA represent a very high proportion of the student population there and have done for a long time now.
Mid-Atlantic states:26.7%
NE: 18.1%
Pacific:15.9%
Central: 2.5%
Mountain: 2.2%
South 15.2%
Midwest: 9%</p>

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<p>I think the point is that most of the NE states don't have public U's of a similar caliber and that in comparison there are a <em>lot</em> of private colleges. In Massachusetts, iirc, more than 50 percent of high school students go on to private colleges...in California, the vast majority go to public U's.</p>

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<p>actually it was Marite who stated that</p>

<p>this is what epiphany wrote
*marite,
I don't know what you mean by "CA schools tend to be public." *</p>

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<p>Well, TheDad interpreted my post the way I meant it to be read, i.e., that schools in this context had to be colleges and unis.</p>