I Hate Myself For Being An Arm Chair Liberal

Parents Forum
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<p>I think this thread should have a poll:
Would you become a URM for the rest of your life with all that it implies? That means in college admissions and afterwords.</p>

<p>IF you wouldn't want to be a URM, you concede a lack of equal treatment and/or opportunity thus providing for one of the key reasons why AA exists. </p>

<p>The Race card? Only people who can afford to see it as a game could ever say that. Rodney King's race card did him an awful lot of good as it did OJ Simpson. </p>

<p>Let AA continue until eternity? Let's be fair here. Slavery and segregation lasted centuries (1600/1700-1965). AA hasn't even been around for 50 years. In 1960, most southern blacks couldn't vote. I think you set arbitrary and unfair boundaries. </p>

<p>Until this country resolves to address its structural inequalities, AA will continue to be a band-aid solution to a big problem causing resentment on both sides. If this country were actually serious about equal opportunity, AA could be cut back much sooner.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
It was demoralizing and wearisome then, just as many smug and self-righteous arguments against AA are today.

[/quote]

Indeed. You know, I like to think of AA like this: You have two people with roughly the same quantitative credentials. You are reviewing both to see which is going to fit best on your team. One guy was born very tall, the other short and muscular. Had the short and muscular guy applied last year, you probably would have taken him because your football team could have used a linebacker and it seems this guy would fit the bill. But you don’t need a linebacker now. In fact, you hardly EVER need linebackers because they always show up in droves. Your basketball team, on the other hand, is ALWAYS short of good centers. So, grabbing as many centers as you can, you take the tall guy. The short guy may say “its not fair that the tall guy got picked just because of the height of his body”. But had there been a shortage of linebackers his tune would completely change.</p>

<p>The problem I have with this discussion is that many people want to reduce this issue to a “bleeding heart liberal” versus a “racist conservative” debate. It gets ugly because yall don’t want to understand this issue. You just want what you want and you want the other guy to look bad as you run over him. What I want is to feel in my gut how those who disagree with me feel. And I want them to feel in their gut how I feel. In that way, I will take care not to say things that make them feel like lashing out in frustration at me and my opinions. I want them to sense that I desperately want to work with them so that we can solve our disagreements and generally care for one another.</p>

<p>To tell the truth, I understand the AA problem, and I am against it. But I also understand history. In fact I feel history. As a black man, I feel it bearing down against me. I also see my kids, kids who score quantitatively higher than the VAST majority of whites and Asians in this entire world. I see how history has affected us all so that very many people in power have low expectations and prejudices against people like my kids despite their remarkable SAT Is and SAT IIs, and how these pressures always threaten to push my children down, down, down, down. I also see how without AA, the sheer bulk of non-black students with high scores would generally mean my kids, even MY kids, wouldn’t stand much of a chance of getting attention and gaining access to the fine resources of the greatest universities. And this means my younger kids hardly stand a chance of ever seeing people who look like them successfully taking hold of the brass ring.</p>

<p>But I thank God. In tears over the last few days I having been thanking God and a whole lot of people, white people, who I guess must understand what I am up against here. In a sea of high scoring whites and asians, someone took a look at my little black daughter and was impressed by all those 800s and all that genuine community service and all that passion and love and heart and soul and might that would surely have gone unnoticed had there been no AA. With one of the strongest sets of SATs in the nation, the girl was accepted by Cornell, Dartmouth, William & Mary (Monroe Scholar), Yale and Princeton. But that is not the biggest thing, though it is something elee. What I am most grateful for is that now my 16 year-old son sees the possibilities standing before him in flesh and bone. All this time, for eighteen long years, I have been preaching about hard work, begging and pleading with my kids never to give up, that it would one day pay off, and when those acceptances started rolling in, all my kids, ALL eight of them, saw with their own eyes that I was not lying. Now, I have seven younger kids who are newly inspired by their older sister. I just don't think this would have been possible without AA.</p>

<p>So, I’m torn. I hate AA for its obvious unfairness to others. I accept AA because it aims to help build a path so that kids like mine have a fighting chance against the history that has stood OFFICIALLY against them from 1619 right into the 1970’s. My kids don’t need any doggone "lower standards." They are pulling down 800 after 800 on their SATs. My son is taking SATs right now. Like his sister, I suspect he will pull down perfect scores on all of them-- or close to it – no expensive consultants (<a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/pacificnw09252005/coverstory.html)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/pacificnw09252005/coverstory.html)&lt;/a>, no public school sponsored prep classes (<a href="http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/adulted/satprep/)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/adulted/satprep/)&lt;/a>, no rich kid loopholes (<a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=1787712&page=1)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=1787712&page=1)&lt;/a>, just their brains, their books, and a real joy in being alive.</p>

<p>But if after all of the awful history that has resulted in widespread attitudes and indeed an entire system heavily weighted against them, if after all this we do nothing to help educational institutions turn their attention toward people like my kids, well, I think they will lose hope. It’s like they try, try, try and long to enjoy the resources of great schools, but they almost never see anyone who looks like them who are doing the same thing. So they don’t know if it is even possible, or if whites in these communities will even receive them. What is worst, when kids like mine see no one like them at this level, and when they hear the defeatism of others telling them whites are against them, well, they have very little evidence to use in working against these claims.</p>

<p>It would be beautiful, just beautiful, if we could all treat race as we treat hair color. We don’t really talk about how many blonds versus brunettes are in the ivies. Its just people trying to do their thing. Unfortunately, history was so awful where race is concerned, that even now we are suffering from its shockwaves. It just does not allow us to treat race as we do hair color – at least not yet. Probably a quarter of people in America are so heartless that they can’t even consider that history has had an enduring and profoundly negative effect on kids like mine. They instead prefer to call my kids genetically inferior, which threatens to push my kids out of American society even more. In a country like this, we just can’t all be one big happy American family. We can’t be all countrymen, working together to build up our country. Too many Americans think I don’t belong here. Too many don’t feel they belong, though they have been here almost since the Virginia Company sent people here almost 400 years ago. AA is “history aware” – unlike many Americans. It sees kids like mine and says “My! Those kids likely had to go through a lot to pull down scores like that. They likely had to go through this because many attitudes persist against them even today, due to history. So, lets take a particular look at the rest of these kids’ files to see if they are the real deal. And if they are, then let’s try to give them a fighting chance to go for it.” In this way, my kids will go forth and then inspire many others to do likewise.</p>

<p>It takes time. When you consider the number of centuries it took to get us into this mess, you will probably agree it will take a lot more time than a mere 30-40 years.</p>

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<p>WOW, Drosselmeier! Many, many congratulations to your daughter!!! I hope you'll keep us posted about where she decides to go -- she has so many wonderful choices.</p>

<p>Also, what a remarkable post/analysis. I especially loved this, "...It would be beautiful, just beautiful, if we could all treat race as we treat hair color. We don’t really talk about how many blonds versus brunettes are in the ivies. Its just people trying to do their thing." I think most people would love it if this were true. But, I think you are right -- it takes a while to reach the point where race is just a foot note. I would hope that evenually we WOULD look more at socio-economic background, since there is still a lot of injustice in that arena, especially in the K-12 schools.</p>

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<p>so happy, reading through the tears,...</p>

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<p>fredmurtz2: I am URM - asian.</p>

<p>and Drosselmeir: congratulations. I wish more parents would follow your path rather than blaming structural Inadequacies. It takes more than prep classes to do well. Determination and hard work.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
so happy, reading through the tears,...

[/quote]

I wrote through tears. To see all those kids, all cheering and knowing in their guts that they could do it too. It is one of the main reasons why I am alive.</p>

<p>My daughter is the real champ. She went on forward, despite all my mistakes. That poor girl has taken so many hits in her life, and she just keeps getting up and going on like nothing happened.</p>

<p>I have to go. I really can't type much more.</p>

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<p>Drosselmeir,</p>

<p>It is no wonder your D has achieved in the maner she has with the wonderful example you have set. Many congratulations!</p>

<p>I have a question. You say:</p>

<p>" In a sea of high scoring whites and asians, someone took a look at my little black daughter and was impressed by all those 800s and all that genuine community service and all that passion and love and heart and soul and might that would surely have gone unnoticed had there been no AA."</p>

<p>Why do you think it would have gone unnoticed? Your D has demonstrated remarkable achievement by any standard.</p>

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<p>Drosselmeier:</p>

<p>Your post also brought tears to my eyes. Your D is an inspiration to her siblings; she will be an inspiration to other schoolmates and other URMs elsewhere. Providing a model for others to follow is one reason for AA. I wonder how many kids have looked at Condi Rice or Colin Powell and said, "Wow! I could be like them, too." I hope lots.</p>

<p>Here's to your other kids achieving the same success as their sister!</p>

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<p>Drosselmeier: Thanks for your post. Best to you and your awesome kids.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Why do you think it would have gone unnoticed? Your D has demonstrated remarkable achievement by any standard.

[/quote]
Truly. And this, I think, is one of the arguments against AA that has been raised by similarly talented supposed AA beneficiaries. I actually don't have a problem where similar applicants are appraised, and a decision is made based on achieving a certain mix. I really don't. But it must be galling for the truly brilliantly qualified black student to bear the AA label, as in s/he only got here because of ethnicity, when that wasn't the case at all.</p>

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<p>Sorry for the whiplash, Kluge. I see you are a lawyer, so the mere mention of "whiplash" probably got you all sweaty.</p>

<p>Let me consolidate my various views:</p>

<ol>
<li>Here's what the college landscape would look like if AA went away:</li>
</ol>

<p>a. The URM students wouldn't just disappear. They would simply gravitate towards colleges whose admissions standards would fit their test scores and grades. A simplified model would be that the URMs at Harvard end up at Tufts, and those at Tufts end up at Boston University, and so on. Some people would have you think that if AA went away, every campus would look like a Klan rally. Come on! All the URMs that have been studying their whole lives aren't going to forget about college just because there is no AA.</p>

<p>b. Because URMs would be at colleges where their academic qualifications put them more in the thick of things, there would be a lower dropout rate, better grades (therefore better chances of going to grad schools), more graduating with honors, etc.</p>

<p>c. Those who want to scoff at URMs achievements (because of AA) would be without ammo.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I'm still waiting for someone to explain who it would be who would be keeping all the URMs out of college if there was no AA. I mean is there a conspiracy among adcoms, guidance counselors, the folks who grade the SATs and the teachers who write the recommendations to keep URMs out, and only AA is foiling their dastardly plot?</p></li>
<li><p>Think of this analogy: An evil man named Bill imprisons an innocent man named Ed. The cell is very small and Ed's muscles atrophy. Finally Ed is freed, and needs to build up his muscles again. As unfair as it is, nobody but Ed can lift the wieghts needed to build himself up again. Others can give the opportunity to use a nice gym, but it's got to be 100% Ed's sweat. And nobody is doing Ed a favor by painting the number "10" on his 5-lb. dumbells.</p></li>
<li><p>If there is a master plot by elite WASPs to keep control of their top universities, they are doing a really inept job. With Jews and Asians attending in %'s way beyond their % in the general population, and a slew of special outreach programs for URMs, this would seem to be one really stupid plot.</p></li>
<li><p>I was an officer in the US Navy for a decade. We had all sorts of programs to try to get more minority officers. Top performing minority sailors routinely got offers to go to the Naval Academy Prep School (Newport RI) or other prep programs on full pay to get the academic basics, and then go on to Annapolis or ROTC. I would sit down with sailors and explain what an incredible deal this was, and never once did I have one go for it. They didn't want the hassles and responsibilities of being an officer. Moral: you can give people the opportunity, but you can't force success on them.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>If students wanted to know if they got in based on ethnicity, they could simply refrain from checking the race box on the applications and see what happens. But few would pass up the advantage no matter how stellar their credentials, right? Has anyone? </p>

<p>Drosselmeier, you are very well spoken and I appreciate your points. You don't sound as if you had to raise your children in crime-ridden urban schools. It makes me wonder, though, why you say "my little black daughter" in the "sea of high scoring whites and asians?" It sounds as if you think your child might drown! She is not little and she is not inadequate. Your daughter was very high scoring and capable. Your children would very likely be admitted to any school even without AA. </p>

<p>How would you feel if your children were disadvantaged by income? Would you gladly give up your kids' chance at the college of their choice to make room for a lower income student?</p>

<p>I have one other comment. You say, "without AA, the sheer bulk of non-black students with high scores would generally mean my kids, even MY kids, wouldn’t stand much of a chance of getting attention and gaining access to the fine resources of the greatest universities." You would be welcome to join the club. Most non-AA students are just a speck in the sea of applications, and many deserving kids are overlooked and don't get the chance to access the fine resources of the greatest universities. It's just supply and demand.</p>

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<p>Race is an advantage/disadvantage independent of income which can also be an advantage/disadvantage. Yet, I would argue that the income metric can be seen in the applications and are weighed accordingly. A 90210 zip code vs. an inner-city area, apply for aid or not etc. so, I would say that low income students do get a break in a systematic way as well they should.</p>

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<p>"Most non-AA students are just a speck in the sea of applications, and many deserving kids are overlooked and don't get the chance to access the fine resources of the greatest universities..."</p>

<p>Bingo. Couldn't agree more. I apologize for not reading through every post here; I've read many, & certainly Drosselmeier's excellent one, but there still seem to be myths abounding.</p>

<p>To the OP:
One needs to look beyond the stats + URM formula. I'll tell you frankly, when the CC students were posting in the ED/EA rounds -- in Ivy forums, I was dismayed by the likely outcomes of some of them -- judging only by their abbreviated, understated, self-deprecating posts. Some of the URM's and non-URMS's did not seem like great achievers, yet many of them seemed to be pinning their hopes on one <em>particular</em> Ivy in some cases (not universally the same one).
Then the RD decisions came in, and the shorthand turned to longhand. I saw the amazing achievements of their lives in fuller posts -- in some cases over many hurdles & with little or no support in families, extended families, at school. Those achievements stood out despite lower test scores than students of any ethnicity who had achieved less (outside of "numbers"). I'm sorry, SBDad, but if I were on the admissions committees of those Ivies, I would also have admitted those students. They brought a fuller array of contribution, a fuller set of ingenuity, drive, initiative than many of those rejected or waitlisted. And remember, there were still plenty of high-scorers of all ethnicities who were admitted: some of those posted on CC. Judging by the variety of ethnicities on CC, there must be some extension to the larger pool of accepted students.</p>

<p>To Drosselmeier:
I have nothing but respect for your role in the support of your children's education, but I do think you may yourself have some prejudices or misunderstandings about just how advantaged all non-URMs are. I also think, as your post demonstrates, that there is a big difference between born advantage & earned advantage. Indeed, at all levels of education, those with supportive parents & communities, have an earned advantage when it comes to achievement. Students with educated parents who additionally work hard to share that education with their children, have both a born & earned advantage.
What I'm trying to say is, some students have neither advantage. And those students are found in all races/ethnicities, including Anglo Caucasian, btw. Yet some of that non-advantaged category achieves enormously prior to college. While top colleges are not exclusively interested in this category, they are indeed interested in them. The fact that there are limited seats in college classrooms means that some of those will be admitted over more advantaged students in the non-URM and URM populations.</p>

<p>There are people with advantages who would thrive & contribute enormously to an Ivy or other demanding college/U. There are people without advantages who would also do so. Just not enough seats at every one of those top-tier institutions. I'm glad that one of those seats will go to your daughter, and BOTH you and she deserve congratulations for her earned seat.</p>

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<p>Epiphany, </p>

<p>I agree. An applicant should be judged as an entire person, so some with lower "stats" and other desirable qualities get admitted while others with higher stats don't. No argrument here. Never was.</p>

<p>The point I was adressing was that it is a statistical fact that admitted URM's have lower stats than admitted non-URM's. That's not a value judgement, it's a fact. </p>

<p>Are you saying that URM's as a group bring more to the table in terms qualities other than test scores and gpa's? I don't think you are, because that would be just as prejudicial.</p>

<p>So, IMHO, you are avoiding the whole issue of AA.</p>

<p>The question is, "Should URM's be given preferential status in admissions?"</p>

<p>I believe, for a variety of reasons, some historical and some educational, that they should - although I would prefer more emphasis on economic status and less on race.</p>

<p>But it seems to me that you are not really addressing the point by talking about the non-stat qualities of all admits.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I believe, for a variety of reasons, some historical and some educational, that they should - although I would prefer more emphasis on economic status and less on race.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Does it have to be either/or? For example, I believe that schools benefit from having geographical diversity and diversity of experiences. Students whose parents all have good retirement funds whether from investment or secure pension plans, have trouble understanding what most Third World families face when dealing with the elderly; students from farm backgrounds (and these are mostly white) have much less trouble. Similarly, students who have never been judged on the color of their skins may have their eyes opened by being in the same classes as students of different color.</p>

<p>So URMs do have an edge in admissions (although juding from a thread on the Harvard board, not so much of an edge, it would appear). One interesting question would be how much more of an edge than some other students who fall into different categories, e.g. legacies, students from under-represented geographical areas, etc...? Has such a study ever been done?</p>

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<p>Marite,</p>

<p>"Does it have to be either/or?"</p>

<p>Nope - that's why I said "more emphasis", not "all emphasis".</p>

<p>"Has such a study ever been done?"</p>

<p>Emphasis certainly varies by school, but Gratz v Bollinger was in fact a case study of how much emphasis was placed on various attributes at the University of Michigan. (It was interesting to note that a higher score was given to legacies than to URM status.) I think a comprehensive study would be near impossible because those schools that have scoring systems would be loathe to publish them (then we all wouldn't be in the dark anymore, and that wouldn't be any fun (sarcasm)).</p>

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<p>Whew! Son just returned from SAT’s. Thumbs up! Hope ETS doesn’t pull another weird one on us. It is raining here :(.</p>

<p>(sorry for the long post - multiple responses here)</p>

<p>SBDad:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Why do you think it would have gone unnoticed? Your D has demonstrated remarkable achievement by any standard.

[/quote]

Because tons upon tons of other kids have done likewise, and there are just too few seats to give them all spots in the highest, most visible colleges. Also, the other kids haven’t had to deal with the stigma and low expectations my kids have to deal with, due to attitudes remaining from history. I mean, my kids have millions of people in their own country, people with a lot of power, who think they ought not be here and who have formed groups all over the nation that plot to get rid of them. So I don’t think they are as free and are not as much expected as white kids to move about and try new things, and gain new experiences. Okay, my kids think they are as free as anyone else, and that is because I intentionally let them grow up in what I think is possibly a delusion. But I don’t think they in fact are as free. So, not having as broad an experience as most very high scoring whites or asians, they likely would not have much of an edge at all when pitted against others purely on the basis of test scores and ECs. I am not exactly sure about all this. I am still experimenting with it. But it is my sense of it based on my observations so far.</p>

<p>Marite:

[quote]
I wonder how many kids have looked at Condi Rice or Colin Powell and said, "Wow! I could be like them, too." I hope lots.

[/quote]

It is not just kids. I am not terribly conservative, and I am not terribly liberal either. I just take my stand as I see it, and often am not in agreement with anyone. But say what you want against Bush, the man did a fantastic thing when he chose these black folks to help lead America. And you know what? It was just great to see Colin Powell knife playing against Rumsfeld and getting hit and pushed around and hitting back as if race had nothing to do with anything.</p>

<p>lkf725

[quote]
Drosselmeier, you are very well spoken and I appreciate your points. You don't sound as if you had to raise your children in crime-ridden urban schools.

[/quote]

Thankfully I worked to avoid this by teaching the kids myself.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It makes me wonder, though, why you say "my little black daughter" in the "sea of high scoring whites and asians?" It sounds as if you think your child might drown! She is not little and she is not inadequate. Your daughter was very high scoring and capable. Your children would very likely be admitted to any school even without AA.

[/quote]

I am not sure about this for the reasons I mentioned above. There are only so many seats, and when you consider that people are fighting for those seats from all over the world, I just don’t see how without AA my kids have much of a chance, no matter how high they score. </p>

<p>
[quote]
How would you feel if your children were disadvantaged by income?

[/quote]

Well they are, and I feel awful about it. I am trying hard to fix it, but it just seems pretty hard to do.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Would you gladly give up your kids' chance at the college of their choice to make room for a lower income student?

[/quote]

Well, I consider my kids lower income students. I mean, I have eight of them and I am not exactly pulling down big bucks. But I am not complaining about any of this. It really doesn’t bother me in the big scheme of things. It makes the kids more compassionate, and hungry to do well. Yet I understand what you are saying. It is very hard when you look at the matter ignoring history. To see what I see, you need to FEEL history just pushing its thumb right down on you all the time. When I walk outside my home, I am ON! ON! ON! and it does not stop until I return home. I think millions of blacks feel this. Instead of sucking it up and moving on, many just rebel against it. Some, throw in the towel and just do what feels best. No sense in delaying gratification when the future seems hopeless.</p>

<p>I may have mentioned this hear earlier, but I’ll do it again because it has just stuck with me, symbolizing what I think many blacks are going through. In a study on attitudes of black youth, an interviewer asked a young black male if he thought God was white. The conversation went something like this:</p>

<p>Interviewer: “So tell me. Do you think God is white?”
Kid: “Well, I don’t think you can. I don’t know much about Him.”</p>

<p>“But if you HAD to take a guess what would you say?”
“I’d say I’m not sure. I guess He could be, but I don’t know.”
“But if you HAD to take a position on it. What would you say”
(in anger) “Yeah He white! Ain’t no F^&kin way He can be black!”
“Why do you say this?”
“Well just look at this Sh%t! God don’t care nuthin’ about us!”</p>

<p>I know what that kid felt. Part of me feels this, and yet the larger part of me senses that some great thing is coming out of it all and that I am a part of it. So I have some hope. Many MANY blacks have no hope at all. And that is why you see the stuff you see on the 6 o’clock news.</p>

<p>When you look at history and how it just worms its way in and out of things, destroying some people in the present, and elevating others, you can understand how someone might want to do something about it and why they might look to AA. I don’t personally think AA is the answer because it is unfair on the individual level. But I don’t think just ending it carelessly is the answer either. Such a thing will demoralize a lot of people on the group level.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have one other comment. You say, "without AA, the sheer bulk of non-black students with high scores would generally mean my kids, even MY kids, wouldn’t stand much of a chance of getting attention and gaining access to the fine resources of the greatest universities." You would be welcome to join the club.

[/quote]

I hope you are right. I have raised my kids with this assumption, even though I myself don’t think I fully believe it. I am living in a constant state of horror at what I have possibly done. I have tried to teach my kids about racists and to steel them against them. But I have also told them they can climb out of here and join your club if they keep going. I will always love the colleges that accepted my daughter because those schools are confirming in my own heart that maybe I was right to do what I did. I am very sad that my daughter will have to tell most of them she won’t be matriculating with them. In fact, I am grieving about this. I dread it. But I am rambling…</p>

<p>
[quote]
Most non-AA students are just a speck in the sea of applications, and many deserving kids are overlooked and don't get the chance to access the fine resources of the greatest universities. It's just supply and demand.

[/quote]

Ironically, my son made this very same point last night. It is the thing that angers me about how I have raised him. He so much sees himself as an individual like everyone else, he argues that he should hve only as much a chance as anyone else. Well, okay, in a perfect and fair world maybe he is right. But he is dead wrong because this is NOT a perfect and fair world. He likely has pulled down something close to a 2400, if not a 2400. He will probably pull down four or five 800’s on his SAT II’s. The boy can run a hilly mile in 4 something (4:30’s? I’ll ask), and he hasn’t had even a minute’s coaching from anyone. I think this happened only because he was allowed to grow strong in a unique environment the culture of which EXPECTED all this stuff from him. The larger culture, the one developed by American history, would have damned this boy. Yet it encourages and elevates whites. So when young whites look to see what the possibilities are, they see it quite clearly everywhere they look. And because of the ugly past, black kids can’t look to these whites as their own role models. It would be nice if they could, but they can’t because we Americans still don’t see ourselves as one people (which is kind of why I probably reject multiculturalism). So it seems to me what we need is to get people like my boy out in front so that black kids all around him can see where they belong. That is what I think AA tries to do.</p>

<p>I am trying to put eight kids out there, one after the other. I want eight kids, all pulling down some serious performances on everything-- all the time—everywhere and everyhow -- and all on about $25,000 a year. I want eight kids, all who work hard to give something great, something just plain magnificent to the colleges they attend. And when they leave school, I want them working with everything they have to give something that is just plain out of this world to everyone. I ultimately want to be a part of helping us blacks get out of the mess we’re in. My daughter says we suffer from one long multi-generational social emergency. The way I see it, AA is part of the intensive care we need to get ourselves stable enough so that we can get on long term medical care and get ourselves ultimately fixed. But, to be fair an honest, I do see the problems with AA. And it really puts me in an uncomfortable place to defend it.</p>

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<p><a href="It%20was%20interesting%20to%20note%20that%20a%20higher%20score%20was%20given%20to%20legacies%20than%20to%20URM%20status.">quote</a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This suggests to me that skin color matters-- but because it is so visible! People don't walk about muttering about such and such student getting an unfair advantage or not deserving to be at xyz because s/he is a legacy. In most cases, it is not possible to know who is or who is not. So the fact that legacy status carries more of an edge than URM status is not given as much play in the media or in the popular imagination.</p>

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<p>One thing to consider--after the first generation URM goes to XYZ College, his or her kids are now legacy. If the first generation URM went on to a well-paying career, then the kids will lose a lot of the URM boost (anecdotally--higher income level seems to lessen the boost).</p>

<p>The one thing I don't like about AA is that it puts a big label on any URM kid in a highly selective college or professional school--"If it weren't for AA, I wouldn't be here." That may or may not be true at all. But everyone ASSUMES that if you are an URM kid, you got in wholly because of AA. </p>

<p>I had a friend in a highly selective law school who is African-American. She said that she didn't check the race box on the application because she wanted to know that she got into law school on her own merits. The fact that she felt the need to tell the rest of us this was telling--she felt the effect of the label.</p>

<p>The UCs supposedly don't use race as a factor in admission--so you would think that the AA label effect would have disappeared in the UC system. However, they have come up with so many "substitutes" for race that the label hasn't gone away yet.</p>