I Hate Myself For Being An Arm Chair Liberal

<p>
[quote]
I never thought Harvard was capable of shaping my daughter into all she could be. It is a bunch of people who seem more interested in dumping on each other than in forming a serious, scholarly community. It is just a different culture, one that never impressed me, but that seems to work for a lot of other people.</p>

<p>But that rejection did something great for my daughter. She took a breath and decided to be flatly true to who she is. She banged out six essays, one after the other. One of these was a “rant of an insane mathematician.”

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<p>I'm really sorry that Harvard rejected your D and that you have such a bad impression of Harvard and its students. I suspect--as you seem to suggest--that the Harvard essay, being the first she wrote, was not the best. It happens to most students. It happened to mine. Thank goodness, he had a long lead time to write different essays. I do want to say, though, that my S is a math major at Harvard and has not found the atmosphere competitive or anti-intelletucal. He likes his classmates and is part of a study group that is very supportive of everyone. And he is seriously nerdy.</p>

<p>I think your D could have thrived at Harvard. But there's no point in regretting when your D has such wonderful schools to choose from, just as good as Harvard in my opinion.</p>

<p>One thing your D's Harvard rejection did prove, however: URM status is not that big of a hook or tip. The URMs on the Harvard board are right about that. I hope there will be less fixating on it.</p>

<p>Simba:</p>

<p>Being colonized is not the same as being enslaved. When freed, you are indeed masters of your own country. You have a national history you can refer to. Slaves do not have a national history they can refer to with pride; when "freed" they are still living in the society that enslaved them in the first place. Reconstruction was about restoring the advantages of former slaveowners at the expense of former slaves in order to keep the Union intact. </p>

<p>Asian immigrants have had a hard time; but not a lot harder time than other immigrants, and qualitatively different from slaves. </p>

<p>During Apartheid, an Asian friend of mine was asked by his London-based company to go live in South Africa as its representative. He was assured that he would be given the status of "honorary white." He declined. He had no doubt that he would be treated like a white person; but that was precisely the source of his discomfort.</p>

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wow wow wow we are hurling insults now.

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<p>Insults? I really don't see how I have insulted anyone. But I apologize for it. Using your notion of insult, don't you see how you were "insulting" those four URM's who got into the ivies over the "top ranked Asian"? You see, you were implying that those URMs got something that the asian deserved. You in fact "insulted" those guys directly.</p>

<p>I merely said that it COULD HAVE BEEN that the asian could mash buttons well so that he could get good grades and high scores, but that he had very little else in him when it came to expressing himself. I have seen this quite a lot. So it would not surprise me if this was the case with the guy you are talking about. No insult intended. I am just saying that things may not be what they seem to be and so maybe we can't judge it as you were doing.</p>

<p>marite: It still depends on how you want to live future.</p>

<p>Tomorrow will be a wonderful day. We are going to Las Vegas.</p>

<p>(e-dinner for you if I win real dollars. I am cheap)</p>

<p>Poetsheart:</p>

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[quote]
That you think laws passed less than FIFTY years ago magically erase the effects of laws and attitudes and social paradigms that prevailed for FOUR-HUNDRED AND FIFTY, shows that you only see that which suits you.

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<p>Yeah. It is the difficulty of the thing, and it is pretty depressing. Every time I get involved in this kind of discussion, I sadly realize how hopeless it all is. Here you are saying these things and my heart is just burning so that I almost can’t see straight. But non-blacks are reading it and they just can’t even begin to know what it means. Yeah. I have had the same experience as you, the same mean teachers, the same hateful people. They’ve told me I am less than a man for centuries, cursed me, scorned me, kicked me down, down, down, down by American law, made fun of me all across my own country, terrorized me, and they did it for hundreds of years. Then in the last 45 years they pass a law saying, “You can participate in America now. Be happy!” and I’m just supposed to say “whew! glad that’s over”. It is just complete and unadulterated foolishness.</p>

<p>But you know what? This should tell us something that is very useful. Somehow, we have just GOT to get over this ourselves. There is no way we should expect these people to understand us. The way I am hoping to do it is by dying with this and keeping it away from my kids. I figure if my kids are free, even if only in their minds, then they will fight their way to wherever they wish to be. My only concern is in whether the country will let them get on in life. If so, then it will work out. If not, then I have failed my kids. It is a very big risk I have taken. I sometimes have serious doubts as to whether America is really worthy of that kind of trust. But it seems to me I don’t really have much of a choice.</p>

<p>Simba:</p>

<p>The future does not depend entirely on yourself. Have fun in Las Vegas but don't gamble away your family's future :)</p>

<p>Drosselmeier:</p>

<p>Sometimes, it is helpful to make one's kids realize that racism does happen and that they should be able to deal with it. Pretending it does not exist can backfire. </p>

<p>Here is a real story that happened about 10 years ago; I had it from one of the kids involved in it. A group of African-American students were sitting on the steps of a Harvard dorm, strumming their guitars, making music. They were challenged by a campus policeman. Now students sit on the stairs of their dorms all the time and are never challenged. When they informed him they were students and thus had the right to sit there, he did not believe them. The guys knew the policeman could not credit that they were Harvard students merely because they were African-Americans. I can't remember whether he hauled them to the police station or not; but it was not very pretty story. The kids who had previously experienced racism shrugged off the incident as just one more instance of racism. One kid, however, had never ever experienced it (interestingly, he was an army brat) and was deeply affected by this incident. From being a very popular student, he became very depressed. He had not developed enough of a self-preservation instinct for situations like this. I hope they are less frequent but do not believe they have disappeared entirely--as you yourself must know better than I.</p>

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[QUOTE]
I am just glad my son was not in graduating class of 06. The top ranked asian only got in to a second tier school. Four lower ranked URMs go in to Ivies. Last yar he had only one to compete. This year he would have had Four - talk about the odds.

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<p>Oh, please. Just because a student is Asian/White doesn't mean that they'll get auto-rejected by an Ivy. I mean, the majority of students at Ivy league and comparable institutions are White, and the largest minority group is almost always Asian. I got into Brown, and I was not the top ranked student at my high school. I personally know that there were a few URM students who applied from our school to Brown as well, who were comparable to me academically.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
poetsheart: give me a break !!!! If after so many years of freedom you can't shed the past baggage and move forward, no one can release you from your internal conflicts.

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<p>You know, it hasn't been all that long since segregation was outlawed. Asian-Americans were also affected by these racist laws that existed until the 1960s. In fact, many Asian-Americans showed solidarity with African-Americans during the Civil Rights movement. It's sad to see how, in recent years, we've come to hate one another...I think a lot of times, we play into the "divide-and-conquer" strategy, and end up blaming each other instead of trying to bring social justice together.</p>

<p>Marite:</p>

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I'm really sorry that Harvard rejected your D and that you have such a bad impression of Harvard and its students.

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<p>I didn’t mean to give the impression that my impression of Harvard came about because of my daughter’s rejection. I have felt this way for quite a long time. The Larry Summers thing just pretty much confirmed it also. So when my D said she wanted to apply, I had a hard time with it. But she did what she had to do, and I sucked it up.</p>

<p>Upon my reading about Harvard, one thing kept coming up over and over and over and over again, and that is that the students are so ultra competitive against each other, there is little genuine sense of community. I am sure people make friends there. But the sense I got was that collaboration was like pulling teeth at Harvard. I read this in books, and in comments by Harvard students, many of whom claimed they thought it was destructive of what the undergraduate experience should be. I just didn’t think this was the right fit for my daughter. Competition is great, but when it is so much a part of the culture that learning loses its joy, well, I just think it is not really what we are all about. But it obviously works for a lot of other people. So I think they that is fine for them.</p>

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[quote]
I suspect--as you seem to suggest--that the Harvard essay, being the first she wrote, was not the best. It happens to most students. It happened to mine. Thank goodness, he had a long lead time to write different essays. I do want to say, though, that my S is a math major at Harvard and has not found the atmosphere competitive or anti-intelletucal. He likes his classmates and is part of a study group that is very supportive of everyone. And he is seriously nerdy.

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<p>Well perhaps I am mistaken then. I feverishly read sites like this <a href="http://www.studentsreview.com/MA/HU_comments.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.studentsreview.com/MA/HU_comments.html&lt;/a> and kept coming up with the same thing. Interviews by students who have written about their stay at the school mentioned the same thing. Then the Summers thing pretty much confirmed to me that the Harvard culture was not really a good match. But I will be the first to admit that I am possibly wrong.</p>

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I think your D could have thrived at Harvard. But there's no point in regretting when your D has such wonderful schools to choose from, just as good as Harvard in my opinion.

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<p>Man. Really. Math at Princeton is just amazing. I think she probably could have done just fine at Harvard. I certainly don’t regret anything. I think I just had a bad opinion of the place that is perhaps misguided due to the public events I mentioned above and some of the other things. You know, when you hear these things, and then you see your daughter going into it, you get all messed up and it seems worse than it probably is. In my mind, Larry Summers hated my daughter because he thought she was inferior, and all the Harvard students were just going to try to mess her over. Glad your son is having a ball there.</p>

<p>
[quote]
One thing your D's Harvard rejection did prove, however: URM status is not that big of a hook or tip. The URMs on the Harvard board are right about that. I hope there will be less fixating on it.

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<p>Yeah. I certainly don’t have anything against Harvard. I was really put off by what I thought was Harvard culture. But as far as the admissions committee is concerned, they had a job to do and they can only do it using the application my daughter sent. Compared with the applications she sent elsewhere, that first application definitely had little force behind it. So I think Harvard did good by rejecting her. It was a good call. It also forced the girl to return to herself come what may. And that is really what is important to me.</p>

<p>My nephew was a wild one when growing up and my Dad & his mom emphatically suggested he enlist in the Army which he did. My dad an ex-army guy knew that blacks would get a fair shake in the military. That was my dad's experience being born in 1911. My nephew's IQ was over the moon and they got him into officer training and he is an officer but my dad has always been disappointed that he never pushed himself and really "got up there." I think there was a part of him that was afraid of being too good and too white. Nevermind, he is the best dad in the world. Maybe his kids can get out of the box. And if AA can help them, let it rip!</p>

<p>As far as scores go, I think there is much too much emphasis on this board over scores. Other things matter a lot more like coursework, gpa and what you bring to a school. Our students do not score high on the SATs & they don't prepare for them. One kid I was working with this year on making suggestions got into Grinnell with under 1200. But our kids do well on the IB and put there energy into classes. They don't see the SAT as important. I got all in a tissy a few years ago when I realized what was going on in the states with people preparing for the tests. I had no idea since when I took it, you went in, sat the test and that was that: one time. I bought my son a review book and he took a few practice tests and raised his score 150 pts. What is that saying?</p>

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One kid, however, had never ever experienced it (interestingly, he was an army brat) and was deeply affected by this incident. From being a very popular student, he became very depressed. He had not developed enough of a self-preservation instinct for situations like this. I hope they are less frequent but do not believe they have disappeared entirely--as you yourself must know better than I.

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<p>I don't think my kids would have a problem standing against this because they are very aware of American history and how it affects us even today. I worry about other, more pernicious things, things that can really hurt them. There are neo-nazi and other racist groups scheming for their very lives. If these groups ever gain enough steam, then my kids are in trouble. Whites don't have to worry about things like this. I do. My kids don't think it is really possible in this day in America, which worries me.</p>

<p>"man. sure helps to be black when applying to kickass schools. i know that sounds wrong, but it is outrageous how much easier it is"</p>

<p>Quote by an African American kid in another thread.</p>

<p>In every country of the world, particularly in the country I live in, money trumps merit all too often. It is just a reality. However, even in the country I live in, the cream floats to the top (usually through a combination of force of self and parental input to some degree) and then you have "I am trying to put eight kids out there, one after the other. I want eight kids, all pulling down some serious performances on everything-- all the time—everywhere and everyhow -- and all on about $25,000 a year." That is, you have remarkable children who surpass all that could ever have been hoped based upon their economic circumstances. </p>

<p>America in this sense is no different than many other places- all the issues related to immigrants, pedigrees, restitution, admissions management- notwithstanding....</p>

<p>Drosselmeier, his children-- are one tiny piece of what makes America remarkable. America is/can be remarkable because of kids with well below 2040 on SATS and indifferent parents, and impoverished upbringings who nonetheless go on to be managers and teachers and nurses and bank presidents...etc. i.e.- the remarkable thing is how normal this is-- in America that is.. A kid might see Condi Rice or Henry Cisneros or Tiger Woods or whomever and say 'wow.' And, 1/1,000,000 kids who say wow might get to be them...</p>

<p>America is/can be remarkable, because of the opportunities and lives that await those other 999,999 and the question shouldn't and cannot only be how to make sure to find and fertilize the 1/ 1,000,000- but the other 999,999. </p>

<p>WAY too much emphasis is being placed on the elite in this discussion, and probably in many other discussions.</p>

<p>Since my children have grown up as guests in a country which does not recognize their religion, we have talked constantly about how to function as a citizen in the context of prejudice and misunderstanding and even hatred. Since my children are Americans and live in a country where there are often(now, for example) known threats against Americans- it colors our daily existance. HOw to disagree while still seeking some degree consensus- how to see another perspective, and to try to take it on as a way to enhance your understanding and breadth and depth of awareness. This has been the fodder of daily living for us. Repatriating and finding themselves in elite educational institutions where there tends to be incredible over-identification with narrow social groups has been disappointing to them. I hope something different is happening at less elite institutions- in the hearts and minds of those not so fortunate to be >> 2040...etc....</p>

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There are neo-nazi and other racist groups scheming for their very lives. If these groups ever gain enough steam, then my kids are in trouble. Whites don't have to worry about things like this.

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Actually, we Jews worry about this all the time. It is very scary, and very, very recent in our history that our people were shipped off to concentration camps and slaughtered en masse.<br>

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My kids don't think it is really possible in this day in America, which worries me.

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Its not just America - and in fact there are other parts of the world that are far worse. My daughter traveled with an interracial group of 10 kids from her Russian class to St. Petersberg - the group included 2 black kids and several Asians. They attracted attention wherever they went, but in particular some of the kids ran into problems from skinheads -- definitely a far more overt kind of racism than they had ever encountered in the U.S. So while I see there as being a continuing, major problem in this country, I don't see racism as being an "American" phenomenon. It is a worldwide issue.</p>

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"man. sure helps to be black when applying to kickass schools. i know that sounds wrong, but it is outrageous how much easier it is"</p>

<p>Quote by an African American kid in another thread.

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<p>"i was rejected too. i dont care though. rice is gonna give me money to go there so screw princeton"</p>

<p>Quote by exactly the same guy over on the Princeton thread. LOLOLOL.</p>

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Actually, we Jews worry about this all the time. It is very scary, and very, very recent in our history that our people were shipped off to concentration camps and slaughtered en masse.

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<p>Of course you do, and I worry about it for both you AND me. I can sense something of what it must be for you because I am in exactly the same boat.</p>

<p>Calmom,</p>

<p>I was going to post this. Then got sidetracked by a phone call.</p>

<p>"People might not like to admit it, but race in America is one of the keynote issues of our age." Tom Wolfe</p>

<p>"Race on the planet is one of the keynote issues of our age." me</p>

<p>You need to look at the location of where the majority of minorities are at. Look at many of the villages that Alaskan Natives are born into, reservations that Native Americans are born into, inner cities that many blacks and Hispanics are born into, what kind of education do you think they receive? How many good teachers are going to want to live in a small Alaskan village, reservation, or inner city when they could find a much better job?</p>

<p>You can argue that whites live there to but you need to look at the picture as a whole.There should be no reason that this is happening but it is. I feel that the educational system in the United States has failed these minorities (including the poor). Education is the only way out of poverty yet we continue to put the worst schools in the areas that need the best. Should these students be held to the same standard as a kid who went to a private school?</p>

<p>I am also really surprised by the fact that many of you parents think that colleges are giving your students places to URM. I want to know what parent actually wants there kid going to a school with no diversity? Your kids need to be exposed to other culture, other perspectives. Do you want your kid to go to a school where everyone is the same or would you rather them go to a school where they can be engaged by students who have lived a different life. These URM bring perspectives that your kids may never have even thought about. So before you start bashing the URM, maybe they are a reason that these schools are so great in the first place.</p>

<p>What's that definition of insanity again, Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result? Here we go again, more insanity because some are so entrenched in there thoughts no matter what you write is going to open their eyes.</p>

<p>It is really easy to subcribe to the notion that blacks are being admitted in high numbers or over "more deserving" non-URMs at selective schools but it is another thing to know what those numbers actually flesh out to. Considering that black students are not applying to these schools no where near the number that there white and asioan counter parts are, one would be really hard pressed to find more than 100 black students entering an elite institution at any given time. </p>

<p>From the JHBE article</p>

<p>The Progress of Black Student Enrollments at the Nation's Highest-Ranked Colleges and Universities </p>

<p>(I can't post the link but if you are a subscriber, you can access the information)</p>

<p>Fall 2005 (class of 2009)</p>

<p>Stanford 252 blacks admitted 156 enrolled black yeild 61.9 % 9.5 % of the freshman class </p>

<p>Duke 1867 black applicants, 163 blacks enrolled 9.5 % of the admitted class</p>

<p>Princeton 116 blacks enrolled 9.4 % of the freshman class</p>

<p>harvard 221 admitted, 153 enrolled black yeild 69.2 9.3% of the freshman class</p>

<p>Yale 1134 black applicants 122 enrolled 9.2% of the admitted class</p>

<p>columbia 1390 black applicants 114 enrolled 8.5% of the admitted class</p>

<p>Gerogrtown 1092 applied 300 admitted acceptance rate 30.2% 121 enrolled, yeild 36.7% 7.9% of the freshman class</p>

<p>Dartmouth 82 enrolled 7.9% of the freshman class</p>

<p>Penn 1229 applicants, 367 admitted 29.9 acceptance rate 193 enrolled 52.6 black yeild 7.6% of the freshman class</p>

<p>Brown 1089 applied 253 admitted 23.2 black acceptance rate 97 enrolled 38.3 yeild 6.6% of the freshman class</p>

<p>JHU 943 applied 343 admitted 36.5 admit rate 75 enrolled 21.8% black yeild 6.3% of the freshman class</p>

<p>Cornell 1126 applied 410 admitted 36.4 admit rate 175 enrolled 42.7 yeild rate 5.6% of the admitted class</p>

<p>MIT 365 applied 115 admitted 31.5 admit rate 55 enrolled 47.8& yeild 5.5% of freshman class</p>

<p>WashU 1884 applied 253 admitted 13.4% acceptance rate 76 enrolled 30% yeild 5.4 % of freshman class </p>

<p>U of Chicago 424 applied 53 enrolled 4.4 % of freshman class </p>

<p>UC Berkley 1572 applied 272 admitted 18.6 % admit rate 129 enrolled 44.2 yeild 3.1% of freshman class </p>

<p>Cal tech 40 applied 1 enrolled .04% of the freshman class</p>

<p><a href="http://www.jbhe.com/pdf/2005freshmensurvey.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/pdf/2005freshmensurvey.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The numbers who have applied is a really small drop in the bucket when you compare these numbers against the numbers of non-URMs who apply. What are we talking about somewhere between 30 to 50 non-urm applicants for every african american who applies?
So from a percentage perspective, African Americans are a higher chance of being admitted, but the their numbers are not increasing. </p>

<p>I have watched over the past 3 admissions cycles here on CC (and I know it is not representative of the entire pool of candides) that there are many african american students that are bringing scores to the table that are comprable to their counter parts. Unless you know the actual scores of every single minority student it is disingenuous to paint each minority student using such broad strokes .</p>

<p>Another thing people fail to notice that an over whelming majority of African Americans in elite colleges are the children of recent AA american immigrants from the carribean and Africa. So even the number of african americans who are not the children of recent immigrants but whose families have been in the U.S. multiple generations is smaller still.</p>

<p>Simba,
What a kernel of truth! It applies to everybody in all kinds of situations, and it bears repeating:

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But, I still believe for one to move on they have to conquer their internal conflicts. If you keep playing the past events as a never ending tape, you would never be free. You would be in prison of your own thoughts for ever

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<p>Sybbie,
Thanks for facts which make this all so real. How many of the outstanding kids who are not choosing these schools are choosing other schools on this list? How many are choosing traditional Black colleges such as Howard?
No number is more compelling than that of Caltech, however...kind of a rallying cry for something..I am sure I don't know what..</p>