<p>Under your (everyone who thinks people that are against saying the pledge should move to North Korea) reasoning the Conservatives and Republicans on this site should go to some other forum like "Conservatives R Us" or something equally in tune with your political and moral ideals.</p>
<p>i love you both completely did not address what i said. it's completely valid to take "under god" out of the pledge. i have friends who are agnostic, buddhist, athesist, hindu, unitarian universalist, and it's completely unfair for them to have to say something, especially since they do love this country, that is not applicable to them. i say the pledge even though i dont believe in the christian God, but i shouldnt be told to fricken move to N. Korea because i disagree with something. it seems to be some of you are far too bitter toawards liberals.</p>
<p>Neither of us addressed what you said because this is not a true debate, just sporadic attempts to purvey our opinions in such a way that makes us feel good and insults the opposing party. :)</p>
<p>Wow, but doesn't that feel demeaning? I mean, you just admitted that you won't even hold a genuine argument - you just say whatever you feel like without analyzing it for the sake of self satisfaction. That seems like such a cheap way to advertise your opinions.</p>
<p>Anyway, yes, I'm an atheist, and no, I don't generally say the pledge. However, moving to the DPRK absolutely would NOT solve the problem - the state still promotes itself and encourages the people to accept its decisions without thinking about them. THAT's the problem I have - accepting things mindlessly.</p>
<p>And of course I don't worry about "under god" moreso than international affairs, that's ridiculous - it's just the topic up for discussion on this particular thread. Nice humanitarian wish there, too.</p>
<p>Historically "under God" of course means under the Christian god, but I have friends who are Muslims, Jews, etc. and have no problem saying it, as they know under God is different to each person saying the pledge. </p>
<p>If your an atheist or agnostic just think about yourself when you say under God, as atheists and agnostics in the end just worship themselves.</p>
<p>"If your an atheist or agnostic just think about yourself when you say under God, as atheists and agnostics in the end just worship themselves."</p>
<p>oh my god, you're an idiot.</p>
<p>go to hell all of you anti-american scum</p>
<p>"go to hell all of you anti-american scum"</p>
<p>If one chooses not to say the pledge, dosen't mean that they are anti-american.</p>
<p>There is no such thing as hell. I'll have a hard time going to your silly little fairy tale land, especially since it doesn't exist.</p>
<p>PS. Satanists worship themselves you dumb****, atheists and agnostics don't worship anything (especially not santa cl...I mean god.)</p>
<p>if you choose to not say the pledge because you do not like the content, yes you then are anti-american. If you cannot pledge allegiance to this country your citizenship should be revoked. You guys make me sick</p>
<p>I've never refused to say the pledge of allegiance, if that was directed towards me.</p>
<p>umm cool goloani, unfortunately i dont care what you think and i say the pledge, i just dont think under god should be in it.</p>
<p>"If you cannot pledge allegiance to this country your citizenship should be revoked. You guys make me sick"</p>
<p>This is very un-american of you. You should be aware of the fact that all American's have the right to FREEDOM OF SPEECH. By revoking somebody's citizenship just because they do not wish to say the pledge, is clearly abusing that right. After all, doesn't America pride itself for giving it's citizens the right to say whatever they which?</p>
<p>
[quote]
"And was that our agreement with you?" the law would say, "or were you to abide by the sentence of the State?" And if I were to express astonishment at their saying this, the law would probably add: "Answer, Socrates, instead of opening your eyes: you are in the habit of asking and answering questions. Tell us what complaint you have to make against us which justifies you in attempting to destroy us and the State? In the first place did we not bring you into existence? Your father married your mother by our aid and begat you. Say whether you have any objection to urge against those of us who regulate marriage?" None, I should reply. "Or against those of us who regulate the system of nurture and education of children in which you were trained? Were not the laws, who have the charge of this, right in commanding your father to train you in music and gymnastic?" Right, I should reply. "Well, then, since you were brought into the world and nurtured and educated by us, can you deny in the first place that you are our child and slave, as your fathers were before you? And if this is true you are not on equal terms with us; nor can you think that you have a right to do to us what we are doing to you. Would you have any right to strike or revile or do any other evil to a father or to your master, if you had one, when you have been struck or reviled by him, or received some other evil at his hands?- you would not say this? And because we think right to destroy you, do you think that you have any right to destroy us in return, and your country as far as in you lies? And will you, O professor of true virtue, say that you are justified in this? Has a philosopher like you failed to discover that our country is more to be valued and higher and holier far than mother or father or any ancestor, and more to be regarded in the eyes of the gods and of men of understanding? also to be soothed, and gently and reverently entreated when angry, even more than a father, and if not persuaded, obeyed? And when we are punished by her, whether with imprisonment or stripes, the punishment is to be endured in silence; and if she leads us to wounds or death in battle, thither we follow as is right; neither may anyone yield or retreat or leave his rank, but whether in battle or in a court of law, or in any other place, he must do what his city and his country order him; or he must change their view of what is just: and if he may do no violence to his father or mother, much less may he do violence to his country."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Consider, Socrates, if this is true, that in your present attempt you are going to do us wrong. For, after having brought you into the world, and nurtured and educated you, and given you and every other citizen a share in every good that we had to give, we further proclaim and give the right to every Athenian, that if he does not like us when he has come of age and has seen the ways of the city, and made our acquaintance, he may go where he pleases and take his goods with him; and none of us laws will forbid him or interfere with him. Any of you who does not like us and the city, and who wants to go to a colony or to any other city, may go where he likes, and take his goods with him. But he who has experience of the manner in which we order justice and administer the State, and still remains, has entered into an implied contract that he will do as we command him. And he who disobeys us is, as we maintain, thrice wrong: first, because in disobeying us he is disobeying his parents; secondly, because we are the authors of his education; thirdly, because he has made an agreement with us that he will duly obey our commands; and he neither obeys them nor convinces us that our commands are wrong; and we do not rudely impose them, but give him the alternative of obeying or convincing us; that is what we offer and he does neither. These are the sort of accusations to which, as we were saying, you, Socrates, will be exposed if you accomplish your intentions; you, above all other Athenians." Suppose I ask, why is this? they will justly retort upon me that I above all other men have acknowledged the agreement. "There is clear proof," they will say, "Socrates, that we and the city were not displeasing to you. Of all Athenians you have been the most constant resident in the city, which, as you never leave, you may be supposed to love. For you never went out of the city either to see the games, except once when you went to the Isthmus, or to any other place unless when you were on military service; nor did you travel as other men do. Nor had you any curiosity to know other States or their laws: your affections did not go beyond us and our State; we were your especial favorites, and you acquiesced in our government of you; and this is the State in which you begat your children, which is a proof of your satisfaction. And now you have forgotten these fine sentiments, and pay no respect to us, the laws, of whom you are the destroyer; and are doing what only a miserable slave would do, running away and turning your back upon the compacts and agreements which you made as a citizen. And first of all answer this very question: Are we right in saying that you agreed to be governed according to us in deed, and not in word only? Is that true or not?"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Finally, a quote from the Clouds might not be wholly inappropriate. See the conversation between the Old and New Arguments (line 960) for an amusing dialogue that can be applied quite effectively to the American culture war of today. </p>
<p>Actually when you become a citizen of this country you pledge your allegiance to it, if you do not owe allegiance to this country then u should hae ur citizenship revoked. You are living here as a citizen, you are recieving the right of america yet u do not pledge allegiance to it? YOU ARE A DISGUSTING HUMAN BEING</p>
<p>Also God, in the pledge, can be anything you want it to be, if u are an athiests it can be whatever u value or hold higher than you or as an absolute such as reason or logic or whatever godless people value</p>
<p>um golani you are a little melodramatic. i dont care what "should" happen, we can have freedom of speech. If someone wants to disagree with the government, they are allowed to. Their citizenship isn't going to be revoked no matter how much you want it to. sorry, bud.</p>
<p>Revoking someone's citizenship for not saying some meaningless words borders on totalitarian. Think about it, you're saying that we should round up people who refuse to say the Pledge and revoke their citizenship just because some people hold it in regard. If we were to suggest revoking people's citizenships for not singing Happy Birthday on someone's birthday, it would be ridiculous. </p>
<p>And no offense to Kennedy fans, but his speech does not apply to me if I don't want it to.</p>
<p>look its real simple either you hold allegiance to this country or you dont. If you do you should ave no trouble saying the pledge for its general content</p>
<p>golani89: Explain to me why someone who doesn't say the pledge BUT (most likely) pays taxes, does jury duty, votes, etc. should be shipped away to another country? O.o</p>
<p>yes golani89,explain.</p>