<p>I agree that this should NOT be in the GC’s letter. The GC has to fill out if rank is weighted or unweighted on his/her counselor report form. Your school has unweighted rank just like our school had when my kids attended (this has been changed since my kids left due to a policy change that actually my older D initiated and had the school board pass). Therefore, an adcom UNDERSTANDS that the rank of a student who elected Honors and AP classes may be lower than a student with higher grades who did not take as rigorous of courses. So, this will be obvious by the counselor’s filling in of his/her form AND the School Profile (check to make sure your school profile denotes that rank and GPA is unweighted and also notes the courses the school offers. Your child’s record will be evaluated in the CONTEXT of his/her high school and their system and not compared to some kid from a school with either different course offerings, different grading or ranking systems. That is why there is a school profile and the counselor report has questions like this to mark off. </p>
<p>The second part of your statement about how your son chose a more rigorous courseload for the challenge as opposed to the chance to have a higher GPA is IMPLIED. That’s the point of taking rigorous classes. Adcoms know this. The counselor has to fill out on the form the rigor of this student’s chosen curriculum and will have to fill in either Most Demanding, Very Demanding, More Demanding, Demanding, Average, Below Average, etc. in terms of rigor for THAT high school. So, this will be obvious by both the counselor’s FORM AND ALSO THE SCHOOL PROFILE. Adcoms will be able to see your son’s rigor of courses by examining both of these documents and in context of HIS school. Further, adcoms know it is harder to get an A in an Honors/AP class than in a regular track class! You are wanting the GC to tell them the obvious understanding! Often, a B in an AP or Honors class is looked upon more favorably in admissions than an A in the regular track class.</p>
<p>The counselor doesn’t need to write out the two points you have made in your sample narrative because BOTH POINTS (the unweighted rank and the rigor of courses) ARE MADE right on the counselor report FORM and on the SCHOOL PROFILE. I can’t imagine a GC writing either of these statements. The counselor fills that in on the form and should use the narrative to extol the virtues of your son with many examples. To help the GC, your son could write a letter sharing the highlights of his academics and activities in high school, accomplishments, and personal attributes, goals, etc. and his resume. THAT’s the content that is appropriate for the counselor’s narrative report, not the stuff you mentioned. The counselor also fills in a form that takes care of your two points, as does the school profile that accompanies the transcript.</p>
<p>soozie, I disagree that this is always obvious. At ds’s school, all honors classes receive the H designation. But within those honors class are two levels – let’s call them D, the more difficult level, and E, the easier level. Nowhere on the transcript does the class indicate whether the student took D or E Honors, just Honors. Even the GC filling out the form has no way to know what the kid took! That’s particularly disturbing when it comes to deciding “most rigorous” courseload. How would he/she know?</p>
<p>Youdon’tsay…that is different. If the School Profile doesn’t denote that there are two levels of honors classes and the transcript does not either…first, I would try to see if the school could update the profile and transcript to be accurate. If not, then yes, the school counselor should note that there are two levels of honors track classes and your child’s classes X, Y, and Z were at level one or two. Also, I think there is a spot on the application where a student can fill in any explanations about the academic record that are not clear and the student could fill in that she took level one or two of the two tracks of honors classes but it would be far better coming from the GC and truthfully your transcripts and school profile should be changed.</p>
<p>^^
You know, if we had a good school profile, none of this would be necessary. And yes, I have looked at ours and thus felt the necessity of asking the GC to provide more information than was otherwise available to the adcoms. Ours lists mean ACT/SAT scores for the past 5 years (including the national, state and school specific numbers as I am sure the national number is unknown to adcoms), number of students taking each test for the past 10 years, and NMSQT numbers for the past 9 years (small number). No deciles. That is 1/2 of the profile. Helpful, yes?</p>
<p>There is nothing about student GPA’s, AP tests taken, scores on same. Yes, it does state that honors classes are not weighted at the end of one of many paragraphs, after the number of support staff employed by the HS, the courses needed to graduate, and the length of class period in minutes. And it also states that students may access vocational campus by car or by bus. It does list honors and AP classes offered in one small paragraph.</p>
<p>Little background. The school give val status to 4.0. Historically, there have been 10+ vals/year. 2-3 years ago, they started requiring that to be a val, you have to take at least 1 honors class/semester (out of english, math, sci + a smattering of AP available). I think they were down to 3 or 4 vals this past spring of which 1 was a top kid deserving of val status. I’m curious to see how many they will have this year when the policy will have covered all 4 years for the first time. And yes, I did say ONE honors class/semester.</p>
<p>It’s not uncommon for students/ parents to vocalize that they are not taking Honors classes in order to preserve their 4.0. In fact, it’s almost understood. I’ve received looks of pity from other parents as in ‘you poor thing, you don’t know better than to get your kid out of those classes.’ None of the above is a secret in this school. Note that many do this so that they can get a scholarship at the local State U where money is given purely based on GPA/rank. They are not applying to top schools out of state.</p>
<p>again, an adcom at a top college will be able to figure out how rigorous yours son’s classes by looking at the counselors report for this:
“The counselor has to fill out on the form the rigor of this student’s chosen curriculum and will have to fill in either Most Demanding, Very Demanding, More Demanding, Demanding, Average, Below Average, etc. in terms of rigor for THAT high school.”
So maybe the question to have your S ask is, will the GC indicate on the report that he HAS taken the most demanding classes? If the answer is yes, then please relax a bit. Adcoms know that some schools give out Vals like candy. A students rank is not THAT important to many top colleges because many top private HS’s NO LONGER RANK THEIR STUDENTS and they have NO problem with getting them into top colleges. If you want to do something positive to help your S, then see what you can do to improve the school profile report.</p>
<p>I would think admissions officers specifically look at the Profile and search out the part which mentions whether grades are weighted or not, and if so, how. They always say they look at the student in the context of their school so I guess I can’t imagine them not looking for that info. I do think it would be great if they included the overall percentage enrolled in honors classes.</p>
<p>menloparkmom - I assume your school’s profile shows number of kids accepted at each school. Our school shows number of kids matriculated at each school. For each AP course, it shows how many student received A,B,C, next to it number of students received 5,4,3 on the AP exam. Not surprisingly, most of the time number of As equal to number of 5s for each AP course.</p>
<p>I have seen quite a few school profile now, and they are all different. I think they should try to make them more uniform. It would make adcom’s job a lot easier.</p>
<p>“I think they should try to make them more uniform. It would make adcom’s job a lot easier.”
I totally agree. But given what they do have, I think adcom’s can pretty well figure out the rigor a school A vrs school B. That’s one of the reasons for having regional adcoms. No system is going to be perfect when it involves humans however.</p>
<p>While it may be hard to believe, I am relaxed (said through clenched teeth). I have written an apology to the GC, and unless her reply (if I get one) requires further contact, I do not plan to have any. I may work on trying to improve the profile at some point but obviously that’s not going to happen in the next 4 weeks, and my next child won’t hit HS for 3 years. We may move to another part of town (completely unrelated) and enter another HS that looks much worse on paper (much lower socioeconomics, higher dropout rate, old old overcrowded facility) but interestingly has placed several students into top schools (not using any URM, underprivileged hooks) while our HS, considered to be premier in the city, may well have placed none.</p>
<p>15% acceptance in top 5% rank, 5% acceptance in 6-10% rank. I realize there are associated variable with this, but sure looks better at the top. And the fact that many schools no longer rank does not change the fact that ours does.</p>
<p>I was at the school open house last week. Of 90 kids enrolled in Calculus (AB of course, no BC offered), apparently about 30 actually take the test, and of those I think he said 17 get a passing grade (3 or above). He seemed rather proud of this fact. I know one kid that sailed through with all A’s and got a 3 on the test.</p>
<p>lhs…first, your profile does indicate that GPA and rank is NOT weighted. It’s there. But in any case, I have explained to you that the GC must fill out a FORM and not just write a narrative. The form, the counselor report, asks the GC to mark if the GPA is weighted or not and if rank is weighted or not. It also asks the GC to fill in on a range, the level of rigor of classes your child has chosen within the school’s offerings. Also, your profile shows what was offered. Your concerns ARE covered and reported. </p>
<p>Now, do I sympathize with how the class rank is UNWEIGHTED and the fact that students who took the easiest classes can be the val and or ranked higher than the kids who took the most challenging course available? Sure! (though the adcoms will be able to infer this by the system your school uses). That was how it was at OUR high school too! When D1 graduated, she took the hardest courses our school offered and THEN some. While she still turned out to be val (only kid with a 4.0) unweighted, it easily could have not happened. The kids ranked second, third, fourth, and fifth were not in the harder track classes at all! So, I don’t like that system either! My own kid, even though she still was ranked well despite this ranking system, felt that this did not encourage students to challenge themselves. She researched weighted grading and ranking systems around the country and in our state, obtaining many school policies. She worked on this issue for two full years, spearheading a committee of three that she founded in the Student Senate, and wrote a policy for her school to report both weighted and unweighted grades and to use unweighted for Honor Roll but to use weighted for class rank and she articulated the rationale and so on. She presented her policy to the faculty, the administrators, eventually the school board and the community, and the school board passed her policy which took effect after she left the school. She never stood to benefit from this policy but wanted to effect change at her school in this way and she has. In fact, her initiative with that whole thing was on her resume and mentioned by her rec writers as very unusual for a student to effect change at the school. </p>
<p>But in any case, the school profile already indicated that the school had unweighted GPA and was used for rank and the GC had to fill that out on his report form to colleges and also the GC had to fill out the rigor of the student’s curriculum in relation to the school’s offerings and could fill out “most rigorous or most demanding” on my D’s form, as well as in his letter, explained how she further challenged herself to go beyond what our HS offered in fact…through acceleration, independent studies, long distance courses, etc. By the way, many schools do not even rank. But a school counselor can fill out on the counselor report form, an estimated decile for the student as well.</p>
<p>Thanks, soozie. I think my only point is that this is really pervasive at this school (don’t know the actual numbers, but the drop in val #'s sure would indicate that). Your daughter was the only 4.0. Well, we have oodles with 4.0, many of whom have never met an Honors class.</p>
<p>As I said about 50 posts ago, I’m moving on. And really, I mean it :)</p>
<p>If this helps allay your concerns any further, you mention that your school only offers AP Calculus AB, which is the same as our school though they don’t call it AB. But my girls accelerated and took that class as juniors (nobody here does that, but there is ONE class for seniors). D2 ran out of math courses in senior year and took Calc BC long distance through Johns Hopkins CTY. D2 took AP Calc also as a junior but could not take the class which here is all seniors due to it conflicting with the hightest level English/History course she needed as a junior and so she had to take AP Calc independent study one period per week under the supervision of the Dept. Chair and was handed all assignments and tests without having attended the actual class. And like your school, there were likely not that many who got a 4 or 5 on the AP exam (my D did though). Why am I sharing this? Because even coming from a HS like ours where only 66% even go to college at all, and where the majority do not attend very selective colleges, my girls got into top colleges. Ya know it IS possible to do coming from ANY high school, even ones that offer only 2 AP classes (like ours), unweighted GPAs (like ours), etc. etc. I don’t think you need to worry about this aspect so much and as long as your son has done his very best and has a good academic record in the context of his school, he should do just fine getting into a good college.</p>
<p>“And the fact that many schools no longer rank does not change the fact that ours does.”
I still feel you are placing WAY too much emphasis on RANKING. TOP colleges are NOT going to take a “hi ranking student” with low test scores who took less than the most rigorous courseload over a student who took more rigorous classes and did well in them AND has high tests scores! GPA AND high test scores are the FIRST filterS that applicant must pass through. </p>
<p>PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT THE MIT COMMON DAT SET INFO[ the link is found at the bottom of the MIT page] . it says :
Percent of total first-time, first-year (freshman) students who submitted high school class rank: 51
that means that HALF of the accepted students were NOT RANKED!</p>
<p>I cross posted with you (IHS76) but please understand that within the top ten kids at our school, many are the ones who were not in ANY Honors or AP classes. I get it. We have the same deal here (or did when my kids attended…it has now been changed due to my D’s efforts). So, yes, we can and have had vals who did not take the harder classes! It just happened in my D’s year that while she was in the hardest classes, she still managed to be val anyway, even with the unweighted GPAs and unweighted ranking system but it easily could have been different and the other top five kids were not the kids in the harder classes with her at all! I do get it. Adcoms get this too. Please understand that. They will KNOW your son’s school does not weight GPA for ranking purposes. I evaluate students’ transcripts and school profiles in my job. I fully look at the context of the information. I don’t compare a kid from one high school to another. Neither will the adcoms. This is something to truly understand.</p>
<p>Agree once again with menloparkmom…the adcoms at a very selective college are not gonna accept the kids ranked higher than your son, ihs76, who did not take the more rigorous courses that your son took. There is a good chance that the kids in the easier classes also don’t have as good test scores as the kind of kid who challenged himself to take the harder classes. Selective universities want students who have taken a very demanding HS curriculum within the context of what their school offered. THIS is valued. It is not all about GPA out of context!! Same with rank out of context! Context is everything.</p>
<p>In fact there are so many posts about a student’s GPA on this forum and where they have a chance at certain colleges and so on and I have never gotten how people form an assessment of the odds based on GPA without knowing if it is unweighted or weighted, the rigor of the curriculum the student took in that high school, and actual grades on the transcript beyond the cum average, etc. Some posts on CC put down X test score + Y GPA…can I get in? My response…too little information! When I evaluate a student’s chances at every college, I examine a TON of information from that student (including, but not limited to, the transcript and school profile) and not simply a GPA and test score. Adcoms do as well.</p>
<p>Just to clarify, our HS profile does talk about the two level of honors classes, but then the transcript in no way differentiates between two, so that information is kind of useless. Ds did a good job in his additional info section of pointing that out, I thought.</p>
<p>And let me just say, I ama fan of the additional info section. There are a couple of quirks in his transcript (not grades, but just stuff that’s not representative of the level of course he took), and this was a great place to put that info.</p>
<p>Youdon’tsay…OK, thanks for clarifying that the profile mentions it but oddly, the transcipt doesn’t show the two levels of courses (I would go point that out to the HS as it is a disservice to the students’ transcripts). But your D handled it in the right way on the additional information section and she could note that she was in the higher of the two tracks for X, Y, and Z Honors courses correlating with the school profile descriptions.</p>
<p>I’ll definitely mention it after this college season is over.</p>
<p>I think there are two ways to fix it. The hard way: Only give a .5 bump to the E-level honors class and retain the full 1-point bump to the D-level class. Right now they both get a full point, which is a big rub for some. The easy way: Just add a D or an E to the transcript, then at least adcoms can see that kids got the higher grades taking the easier class.</p>