<p>Also agree with Marian's assessment of IB, post #14. Excellent points, all. I do think IB prepares students remarkably well for college. (Certainly, one can't get through an IB program without having their time management skills down to a science!)</p>
<p>Marian, re: your post #19. Your daughter sounds a little like my son. English is not his strong suite either. He takes 8 classes in 8 periods (no lunch) and described AP Calc BC as his "off period" when he could catch up on other work. I suggested to him that he not describe it that way to his friends that were struggling with Calc.</p>
<p>On the subject of IB, my son finds the IB classes very stimulating. His only exam so far was in Spanish SL and he got a 6/7. This will get him nothing at any of the schools he is applying to and neither will his 3/5 on the AP Spanish. I do think that the fact that the exams and the Extended Essay are graded outside of the school should be a major plus to any college looking at the issue of grade inflation.</p>
<p>I back up what Marian said. I got a little screwed on credit too (though I did get some from IB...my history credit is only in American, when an entire paper of our exam - we have three papers - was modern China, but whatever, that logic is cool too). I didn't try any AP tests (which is probably a fine way to avoid that, esp in math, I just didn't). But the truth is, a lot of people won't end up graduating early anyway (some will, some won't - but after watching a "cycle" of older kids, I've noticed it basically all works out the same). A lot of times the credit doesn't matter much for the major, or it allows the student to start in higher classes and they choose to pursue a minor or another major, which is still possible without a ton of credit anyway. I really don't know. At first I felt bad when I saw all the kids in AP who had equivalent courseloads to me (I did 7 IB classes both years, 4 HLs which is the cap), had about 30 credits and I had 9, but then I thought about what I've heard from actual college juniors/seniors on here, and the parents on here whose kids had that much credit, and it seems like in some cases it doesn't necessarily mean an extreme amount in the end. Maybe I have no idea and it does. I'm just trying to throw it out there and maybe someone with more experience can correct this or give the different scenarios, I would like that. </p>
<p>At any rate, I wouldn't change it, I think I enjoyed the IB curriculum more than I would have AP, that is just me though. Either one is a good solid curriculum. I think American curriculums in general (on any level) could be tightened up in certain ways to allow for the overlap in topics thematically that some of these international curriculums do (Cambridge is another one similar to IB that is gaining a foothold). So I'm not surprised there has been interest in some of these international curriculums. I also think the movement is relatively new, in the grand scheme of things, and I think we will start to see (and are already seeing) a sort of trickle down effect, and American curriculums probably will adjust to adopt some of these strategies that are popular. The main reason our community went to IB a long time ago (more than ten years) was because it played into the strengths of the diverse student body whereas before these curriculums were emphasizing weaknesses and not allowing some students to integrate in so well. So for different communities, this has been a good thing. For others, it isn't so important. What they found with IB is that it is much more forgiving in that kids without, say, a completely confident grasp of english, could have some level of success because of the more holistic assessment of the papers. It is just more forgiving in some ways than the kind of multiple choice bubble standardized tests.</p>
<p>When it comes down to the benefits, there are many for IB. However, many arent well displayed on these forums. Although I dont know that colleges like IB or in better words understand the rigor, from a previous posting in this thread I have come to a different conclusion. However, IB and its rigor do take a toll on grades in many cases simply due to the work. It dramatically influences one's writing and maturity in terms of readiness for college.</p>
<p>Intangibles</p>
<p>Some colleges offer little credit while others offer immense credit.</p>
<p>I dont know if colleges will understand why an IB students grades or UW GPA is lower even IF colleges love IB!</p>
<p>One of the high schools in our town has both IB and AP. The group of kids doing IB is much smaller. Many kids seem to start out in the full program and then end up just doing the IB Certificate. Also at this school, the IB'ers end up with the higher class rankings because of the way the classes are weighted.</p>
<p>My neighbor's D went through the IB program and to say it was stressful is an understatement. She survived it and got a full tution scholarship so I guess it was worth it in the end but her mother will say there would have been a lot less stress/angst in their house and a lot more time for EC's (and just plain h.s. fun) for her D without IB. Her D was a good student but wouldn't be a stand out compared to average CC'ers. She was a hardworker and that's what got her through it.</p>
<p>I know this isn't the case for everybody. Just the experience my friend communicated to me through the ups and downs of it all.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Intangibles</p>
<p>I dont know if colleges will understand why an IB students grades or UW GPA is lower even IF colleges love IB!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is a really important point.</p>
<p>In most of the world, IB students are admitted or not admitted to universities based on their IB test scores (or their predicted test scores; IB teachers have to predict their students' scores, and universities tentatively accept students based on those predictions).</p>
<p>But for students who are going to an IB school in the United States and planning to attend college in the United States, it doesn't work that way. The IB test scores come out too late to be used in the U.S. college admissions process. Instead, IB students are admitted on the same basis as everyone else -- standardized test scores, GPA, rigor of the curriculum, extracurriculars, etc.</p>
<p>The IB kids may get a little extra consideration in the admissions process because their curriculum (if they are doing the full diploma program) is universally acknowledged to be rigorous. But this may be offset by any or all of the following:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>IB courses are difficult, and grades may run lower than they would in an honors or AP course in the same subject.</p></li>
<li><p>The CAS (Creativity, Action, and Service) requirement tends to force kids into breadth rather than depth in their extracurricular activities because students must complete 50 hours in each of three very different areas. For a kid who is heavily focused on a single extracurricular pursuit, this is more than just annoying -- it draws time and effort away from that pursuit and may well lead the student to accomplish less in that specialty field than would otherwise have been the case. For example, the political kid who serves as student body president and also works on a local candidate's Congressional campaign may find it a real nuisance to have to put in 50 "Action" hours (where the options are mostly sports or musical performance).</p></li>
<li><p>The nature of the IB program forces kids to take advanced courses in their worst or least favorite subjects -- something a grade-conscious kid in an ordinary AP-oriented high school would want to avoid. In a regular high school program, the kid who struggles with science would never take an AP science course and the kid who hates history would never take an AP history course, but both of them might take a variety of AP or other advanced courses in other subjects, leading to a very rigorous (if slightly unbalanced) curriculum. IB diploma program kids cannot do this. They must take courses at at least the IB standard level in all of the five principal academic areas plus one elective, and at least three of their six IB courses must be at the higher level. (And in my opinion, IB higher level is harder than AP.)</p></li>
<li><p>IB courses are not necessarily a good match for the content of SAT Subject Tests.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Despite all of the above, the kids from my daughter's IB program got into an impressive variety of colleges (including Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Georgetown, Northwestern, UChicago, Carnegie Mellon, assorted liberal arts colleges, and all of the Ivies except Harvard this year), and those who chose to go to the state university almost all got huge merit scholarships, placement in honors programs, and the opportunity to graduate in three years if they want to.</p>
<p>The high school where I teach will be teaching IB starting this school year. These posts have been extremely insightful, and I appreciate all of this. SAT II's seem to be a sticking point, and what we are thinking about doing is recommending that more students take the ACT, as many schools accept them as an alternative to the SAT I/II package. There are, however, some high-powered schools (a couple of Ivies and LACs) that do require SAT II's regardless of the SAT I or ACT. Kids applying to those schools have less of a choice, but for the majority, the ACT seems to match the IB curriculum better than the SAT package. </p>
<p>We currently offer a couple of APs (we are a very small private school), but are considering dropping those, as the two curricula (IB and AP) don't seem to match, and more and more schools accept either one as being rigorous. It's true that students will have fewer standardized scores to send with their applications. I think the whole thing is evolving, as IB is relatively new and less known in this country. As it gets more and more popular, I would guess colleges will evolve as well.</p>
<p>Well, Franglish, in my daughter's school's experience, the Math II SAT Subject Test is not a problem, and some kids take Literature and do well. IB kids also have enough background in foreign language to take that SAT Subject Test by the end of 11th grade, but language SAT Subject Tests tend to be difficult, and students are often disappointed with their scores. (Our school also requires pre-IB students to take AP U.S. History in 10th grade to give them an early taste of a truly rigorous course, so that provides them with another SAT Subject Test option, but your students may not be in the same situation.)</p>
<p>The main issue is with kids who are applying to programs that require an SAT Subject Test in a science (or for those who aspire to engineering programs, some of which specifically require a physical science). If you teach a higher level IB science course over a two-year period, the kids are unlikely to be ready for the SAT Subject Test at the end of 11th grade because they've covered only half of the topics in the curriculum. We have had kids solve this problem by taking AP Chemistry or AP Physics *on top of the full IB program * in their junior year just so that they would be well-prepared for the SAT Subject Test in chemistry or physics, but this is the sort of option that tends to be available only in a large school. Also, you have to be a little crazy to even try it. Other kids have taken the SAT Subject Test in biology on the basis of our very rigorous pre-IB freshman biology course and done well, but the problem with that is that you have to think of doing it in 9th grade, and many students are not thinking about SAT Subject Tests yet at that point. Also, the biology test won't meet the requirements for some engineering schools.</p>
<p>Marian,
DS2 chose not to take the SAT-II Bio at the end of 9th, unlike a number of his friends. Instead, he's taking AP Enviro as a soph, and our hope is that between Bio, Chem and Enviro, he'll be well-prepared for the SAT-II at the end of soph year. (He would love to take the IB SL Enviro, but Bio is his third HL, so that eliminates that choice.) This way, he'll also have an AP science under his belt before college apps, since we know he won't be taking AP Chem or Physics.</p>
<p>We were kind of disappointed with the prep for the AP Gov't exam -- it was the one class DS2 sailed through all year with flying colors, and he got a 4. I would have liked to see more essay questions during the year so the kids were better prepared. DS2 was getting 90%+ right on the MC on old exams, so our suspicion is that he did great on the MC, but didn't have the level of detail needed on the essays. It's making me wary of US Hist and how much outside work he'll need to do.</p>