<p>he's right, iAppler is right. From what I've seen, and from what my teacher has told me, there's many so called "Cold War" interpretations in AP books. What iAppler means is not that there aren't any global or european stuff, it's the propagandized approach to them. And I've seen that myself..he's right.</p>
<p>(or she!)</p>
<p>The reality is that there ARE high school programs where kids can take multiple years of post-AP math, and there is a critical mass of kids in which to do so. For those kids, AP is probably the better choice -- one can get the BC exam over with and move on, whether it's to a local college/university or to higher classes within the HS. For those kids who are exceptionally gifted in math/CS, IB is unfortunately not the place for them, no matter how cohesive the educational philosophy of IB. </p>
<p>Do I understand correctly that Math SL does not go through BC Calc and that BC Calc concepts are found only in the HL exam? We know kids who took Math SL and some took the AB and some took the BC Calc exam the same year -- which I guess would explain why they are taking the AP on top of the IB, since no college I know of accepts the Math SL for college credit.</p>
<p>My IB student will be taking HL European History, but will definitely have AP US Gov't, US Hist, Comp Gov't, Euro, and possibly World, if he can figure out how to squeeze WH in. He lives and breathes that stuff! On the socail sciences side, there are also AP Psych and the Econ courses, in addition to the many viva<em>sweet</em>love listed.</p>
<p>
<p>Way back on 26 September 2006, the original poster opened this thread here on the Harvard Forum asking for a comparison of IB and AP programs. Some other high school students jumped in with replies soon afterward. I gave my reply to the OP's question (post #5) within a day or so of his question. </p>
<p> [quote=tokenadult] I don't think the choice is so clearcut. Certainly, just taking the curriculum with each label is not the same as taking the tests available in each program and getting high scores.
</p>
<p>Of course what appears to have attracted the most attention in my first reply was the statement, which I thereafter acknowledged (post # 9) "intentionally was provocative, to stir up discussion," that "IB math is rather a joke." A joke compared to what? On the one hand, I would agree, as I have said, that the IB curriculum "is a well thought-out curriculum" and I would go further to say that I would have received better school instruction in high school if my high school in the 1970s had had an IB curriculum rather than the curriculum it had. (As it was, I supplemented my rather lousy high school curriculum with lots of independent reading. This personal background is why I expect high school students to take initiative to go beyond what they are assigned to learn in school, whatever the school program.) But returning to the context of the original post that opened this thread, a strong AP curriculum allows the flexibility to take the more advanced courses earlier than eleventh grade--I have seen it done--and that lays a foundation for an eager learner to go beyond the level of either AP or IB while still of high school age, perhaps by enrolling in a local college course for high school credit. Many young people in my state participate in an advanced mathematics program founded before any school here had an IB program, </p>
<p><a href="http://www.itcep.umn.edu/umtymp/index.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.itcep.umn.edu/umtymp/index.php</a> </p>
<p>and alumni of that program fare reasonably well in highly selective college admission </p>
<p><a href="http://www.itcep.umn.edu/about/alumni.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.itcep.umn.edu/about/alumni.php</a> </p>
<p>which is part of the context of this thread, which the OP posted on the Harvard Forum rather than on the High School Life Forum. CountingDown is aware of a different specialized program for high schoolers in her different state, and has also observed young people who are beyond the level of IB or AP math before they finish high school. </p>
<p>1of42, who joined the thread recently after it was revived, wrote, "I understand that the IBO website does a bad job of presenting syllabuses," and I sympathize with the students who are trying to make a case for the IB program when that program doesn't make it convenient for members of the general public to compare syllabuses directly with AP syllabuses. His comments are helpful in describing the math courses available in the IB program. I'd still like to know </p>
<p>a) what the earliest possible age (or grade placement) is for students who desire to take the math courses that have IB diploma program tests associated with them, </p>
<p>and </p>
<p>b) (as I asked in post #41) if it's really true that there is no requirement of calculus for the physics courses in the IB diploma program. My oldest son has just been taking the AP physics B curriculum, and sat for the AP test at ninth grade age, and I am curious about how that will go. I have heard from an American teacher who teaches in an international IB curriculum school in the capital city of an Asian country that his IB physics courses don't cover calculus-based physics, but that he also teaches the AP physics C courses, which do require knowledge of calculus. I'd like to check how well integrated what level of mathematics is in the IB syllabus. </p>
<p>This thread began back in September. In my own state, we now know admission results for high school class of 2007. Students from schools with AP programs fared very well in college admission, including getting into the college for which this is the college-specific forum. One student I know who was in one of the IB curriculum high schools here had some good admission results too, and was VERY outstanding in his favorite extracurricular activity, but according to my most recent information he was not admitted to Harvard even though he applied. As long as high school students reading this thread understand that at public information meetings </p>
<p><a href="http://exploringcollegeoptions.org/%5B/url%5D">http://exploringcollegeoptions.org/</a> </p>
<p>college representatives recommend challenging yourself with a strong high school curriculum, but DON'T guarantee that one brand name of high school curriculum or the other is a sure key to admission to your favorite college, you should be able to choose the available programs in your local high schools according to how they fit YOU and your interests. That's what is most important.</p>
<p>You're still using "AP" as brand name. I have been enrolled in some APs before grade 11 because I have lived in U.S. for like several months. I came to Canada a few months later. I discovered that I did not learn anything more than normal grade 10 students. Despite the name "Advance Placement", I just learned about everything a typical grade 10 student learns, nothing new.</p>
<p>International Baccalaureate encourages people to overachieve, to discover new things by studying independently, and to open up your horizons. These aspects are something the AP does not cover. AP does not require students to write a 4000-word essay, or to question the history, or to volunteer or do some community service for at least 150 hours. International Baccalaureate Diploma produces countless well-rounded students. This curriculum is well-developed as far as I can see.</p>
<p>If you read some previous posts closely, there are some things IB does not cover, and there are some things that are covered by IB but not by AP. IB therefore develops portfolio and many other research-type essays to cover the uncovered. If you teach everything, there would be nothing left for exploration. Then the teacher told us to write an at-least-800-word essay to discuss Hitler's life and whether he did the right thing. This is a rather wide topic. This depends on how you define "right and wrong." Our teachers encourages us to debate and to debunk others' opinions, but at the same time respect their points of view.</p>
<p>I'll take a basic example of what I learned about the WWII in my IB class. A student actually believed in Nazi Germany. The teacher surprisingly, was not mad at all. That student stood up and pointed out that Hitler united German's spirit etc, etc, etc. Another student stood up and fired back. The teacher asked for calm and immediately held a heated debate. The IB's mission is to open up the history for question, and to include everyone's opinion and perspective.</p>
<p>Regarding to a post that says about APs offering global perspective. You should remember that schools can offer as few APs as they want. Schools that want to offer IB program MUST offer the whole program. Also, students can choose not to choose AP European History, but students MUST be immersed to global perspective in a IB program.</p>
<p>tokenadult: I'm not sure as to the answer to your first question. I believe that one could take an IB math course at any point it was offered to them in high school, and sit for the associated exam, and receive an IB Certificate for it. I just don't think such a course (taken before the 11th grade) could be used as part of the IB program. The specific policies may depend on the school, however.</p>
<p>As to physics, you're correct, IB physics doesn't contain any calculus. However, I have looked over practice AP Physics C tests (not the same as doing the real thing, I understand) and found that with IB physics and some calculus background, they are very simple. So it's definitely not a huge deal in my opinion. I do think, though, that IB Physics' lack of calculus should be rectified.</p>
<p>In terms of admissions results, here's a sample from my fully IB school in Canada (this is out of a class of ~150, maybe 30-40 of which even bother applying to American schools - and don't take that to mean that the ones who don't apply to American schools aren't smart enough to, they just decide not to for other reasons):</p>
<p>2 Harvard
3 Yale
2 Princeton
3 Columbia
2 UPenn
1 Brown
2 Cornell</p>
<p>This list including only the Ivy league admits, because that's all I've actively kept track of. ;) I think it's pretty clear that an IB program can have good results.</p>
<p>Anyways, tokenadult, I'm agreeing with everything you're saying here, about flexibility of program, ability to take post-AP and college math courses, and so on. The thign I vehemently disagree with, and that you have since not repeated (though not recanted, either), was your implied statement that IB HL Math is of a lower standard than AP Math courses. This is not true at all, and I think we need to get that clear. </p>
<p>AP Math courses may play a part of a curriculum that ends up being more rigorous than an IB curriculum, since taking APs early allows a student to go take further courses of a university level in high school, but the courses themselves are not better than IB Math HL.</p>
<p>IB has some nice admission results.
But bad credit transfer options.</p>
<p>IB is harder than AP. That is pretty much a fact. I have taken both AP and IB classes and IB is soooo much harder. Also, IB tests are a lot harder than AP tests, as well - I mean AP tests have freaking multiple choice and it counts thirty percent or more. Also, IB does better prepare you for college. In Texas, the legislature passed a law two years ago that said that if you get a full IB diploma and made at least a 4 on all your IB tests, you are guaranteed 24 credit hours at any Texas State College/ University. No state that I am aware of does that for AP. Also, IB is recognized world wide and if you wanted to go to a college that was not in the US, you would want IB credit and not AP as AP is pretty much an America thing.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No state that I am aware of does that for AP.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Comparable scores on a comparable number of AP tests would surely earn plenty of college credits at most state universities. </p>
<p>AP tests are a recognized admission qualification for Cambridge University in Britain and for various other foreign universities. Most universities around the world are experienced in evaluating foreign credentials--there is a professional association for such admission officers in the United States, and I attended their annual meeting in 1987.</p>
<p> Foreign universities are more familiar with International Baccalaureate, especially universities in Europe. </p>
<p>Tokenadult, this is a reply to inform you of you misconceptions with regards to the University of Cambridge. Oxbridge searches for the best qualified candidates in the WORLD. Considering a certain program good or not due to oxbridge accepting it is a complete and utter false assumption. Oxbridge accepts anything and everything from the German Abitur to the Baccalaur</p>
<p>tokenadult: The link doesn't say anything about what Argentine in CH said. It does not say whether or not they will consider AP if you are a home-schooled student or IB. Also, universities will, usually, only consider the AP courses you have taken. Although I am not familiar with British education system, I believe AP scores are used to gain credits.</p>
<p>Another thing I wish to clarify is that IB earns fewer credits at universities because fewer IB courses are offered. Students can take as many AP as possible, as long as the APs fit into their schedule. IB however, emphasizes 6~7 courses. The course load is intensive already.</p>
<p>I am finding it very amusing, and this is NOT directed toward post #72, that whenever there is a suggestion in this thread (as often comes from my keyboard) that there might at least be parity between an AP program and an IB program, some partisans of IB programs resort to name-calling or blanket assertions of the superior worldwide reputation that the IB program supposedly enjoys. (By the way, where is a citation to a publication viewable on the Web that in any way supports the assertion that IB enjoys such a reputation?) </p>
<p>Way back in September 2006, soon after this thread opened, I replied, in post #5, </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don't see any evidence whatever in this thread, certainly no citation to any statement by any admission officer anywhere in the world, that any college has a systematic preference for IB diploma graduates over high school students who have taken their own self-selected menu of AP courses. Each program has strengths, and some schools, evidently, botch up teaching either program. I have since seen other threads posted by the OP of this thread, and he evidently has parents who are very concerned about his putting together the best possible dossier for admission into the most highly desirable college. (We recall that this thread is posted in the Harvard Forum, so presumably his parents care about what Harvard admission officers think is a good high school program.) Harvard grants advanced standing for sufficiently many sufficiently high scores in either program, </p>
<p><a href="http://www.fas.harvard.edu/%7Efdo/publications/advancedstanding0607/%5B/url%5D">http://www.fas.harvard.edu/%7Efdo/publications/advancedstanding0607/</a> </p>
<p>certainly admits students each year from both programs, and doesn't require even one course from either program as a prerequisite to admission. In other words, this thread has served as a place where various students can brag up their favorite high school curriculum, which may be the only one practically available to them, but few of the replies have given the OP a definitive answer to his question. </p>
<p>Good luck to everyone taking AP or IB exams next year, and good luck to the college applicants in high school class of 2008.</p>
<p>Is this where students BRAG whichever program they prefer? The answer is no.
(This post is not directed toward #73...)</p>
<p>I have studied for both programs; I find IB harder than AP in math, and in Critical Thinking; I chose IB over AP. All I said was that European universities are more FAMILIAR with IB, since it is its origin, just like American universities are more familiar with Advance Placement. It is the same concept.</p>
<p>Who suggested that colleges prefer IB over AP?</p>
<p>I just want to point out that the number of IB schools has increased dramatically over the past several years. Although that number has not yet exceeded the number of schools offering AP (and it is not likely to happen in the next five years), more and more public and private schools are choosing IB due to its focus on analysis skills. The program is certainly not over-hyped.</p>
<p>By the way, IB does qualify for Harvard Advance Standing.</p>
<p>"Students who have earned the International Baccalaureate (IB) diploma with a grade of 7 on at least three Higher Level examinations may also qualify."</p>
<p>Tokenadult, why won't you accept something from people who actually do IB (like myself), and if you consider me to be too biased, at least people like iAppler?
He has taken both courses and if there is anyone good enough to give you a comparison between the two programs, that is him. Why would he lie? No reason. So, IB is harder than AP from people who do both. </p>
<p>Again, you are conducting a major fallacy. Just because some universities give credit to AP and not IB, that does not mean that AP>IB, it just means that AP is prevalent in the states, to a larger degree than IB. Don't judge a program by its prevalence.</p>
<p>I think the major point that advocates of AP are trying to make is not that AP > IB, but that it is possible that AP = IB. I don't understand why IB supporters get so offended by that assertion.</p>
<p>We accept that. But what holds is that IB can be= AP, and IB can be > AP, but not IB<AP</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is a correct statement of the reason why I am so puzzled by this thread. The OP asked a question, and some replies right away suggested that IB would be MUCH better in his situation. My reply in post #5 suggested that he had best check carefully the actual implementation of each program in each of his town's high schools. Some students in both kinds of programs have acknowledged my point, which is that this is an individual determination that has to be done at the local level.</p>
<p>tokenadult -- you may find this information interesting: <a href="http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/offices/admissions/handbook/appendices/ibcourses.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/offices/admissions/handbook/appendices/ibcourses.pdf</a></p>