If all the Ivies were equally prestigious...

College Search & Selection
41

<p>In looking more closely at the data that I posted earlier from collegeboard.com and that which collegehelp generously posted from IPEDs, it appears that they may not always be counting the same groups of students, particularly for grad students (eg, I think that collegeboard.com might not be including law and grad business students). Following are the data from each institution and where there appear to be significant differences:</p>

<p>collegeboard.com , IPEDs , Difference , College</p>

<p>1646 , 13970 , 12324 , Johns Hopkins
10010 , 15370 , 5360 , Harvard
6712 , 11811 , 5099 , U Penn
5834 , 9486 , 3652 , U Chicago
4490 , 7295 , 2805 , Georgetown
13950 , 16660 , 2710 , USC
10285 , 12466 , 2181 , Stanford
8254 , 10428 , 2174 , U North Carolina
2977 , 4643 , 1666 , Tufts
4080 , 5692 , 1612 , Emory
5350 , 6890 , 1540 , Duke
7824 , 9325 , 1501 , Northwestern
7693 , 9140 , 1447 , U Virginia
4715 , 6027 , 1312 , Wash U
3925 , 5229 , 1304 , Vanderbilt
4852 , 6065 , 1213 , Yale
1393 , 2418 , 1025 , Wake Forest</p>

<p>17740 , 15525 , -2215 , Columbia
14526 , 12290 , -2236 , U Michigan</p>

<p>Notable Differences in Counting of Undergraduate Students </p>

<p>collegeboard.com , IPEDs , Difference , College</p>

<p>9750 , 6715 , -3035 , Harvard
11874 , 9730 , -2144 , U Penn
8639 , 5260 , -3379 , Columbia
9183 , 8153 , -1030 , Northwestern
5738 , 4478 , -1260 , Johns Hopkins</p>

<p>6313 , 8352 , 2039 , Notre Dame</p>

42

<p>Yale. Hands down.</p>

43

<p>Columbia then Yale</p>

44

<p>I’d still pick Penn</p>

45

<p>These opinions focus primarily on the undergraduate foci of the various Ivies. I think there is a ring of truth in them.</p>

<p>Quality of Undergrad Education</p>

<p>Tier I - Yale, Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth;
Tier II - Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Cornell </p>

<p>Yale - Extraordinary academics (though skewed away from the hard sciences). Provides luminaries on the faculty combined with a stunning array of intellectual offerings (formal courses as well as unique extra-curriculars like Grand Strategy). Reigns supreme in the fine arts, offers great leadership and service opportunities. Greatest undergrad focus [tutoring, mentoring, residential college housing, funding for ECs] with the possible exception of Dartmouth. Market leading endowment performance has Yale rolling in dough. The brand name is second to none. And it feels closer to the centers of American power than perhaps all the other top schools (Good Shepherd anyone). Major issue - old New Haven, which is still depressing after all these years </p>

<p>Princeton - Phenomenal academics, probably the most balanced of the Ivies across all fields of study. World class in arts, humanities, social sciences, hard sciences AND engineering. Only Stanford can surpass Princeton among the elite private schools in this regard. Pound for pound it’s the best academically for undergraduates of all the Ivies with the largest endowment for undergraduate academics and a pristine idyllic campus. Major issue - Old Nassau is elite and it FEELS elite –> Is Princeton too cultured & manicured? Does it simply have too much money?? </p>

<p>Brown - the place for independent students who are brave (or foolish enough) to design their own programs of study; very, very good academics especially in the humanities; new arts link with RISD may effectively place Brown in the same league as Yale; stellar and very self-selecting student body and lots of momentum because of strong University leadership. And then there’s the aura of celebrity which hangs over the campus like a golden halo (or a bad smell). Major issue - lack of research-heavy grad schools means Brown will increasingly NOT be perceived as a top school by rankings that favor engrg & med school focused universities (an issue also hurting Princeton). </p>

<p>Dartmouth - weakest academically among the Ivies (due to its limited graduate programs), but still one of the very best in the nation for a classic liberal arts education. The focus on undergrads is rivaled perhaps only by Yale and the demanding rigor of its course work is unparalleled among its peers (think MIT). Mentoring is reputedly the best in the Ivies, and lots of resources ($$$) are committed to the undergraduates and to undergraduate research. Does a fantastic job of creating a strong bond among and with its students. Very self-selecting student body. Major issue - those long and cold and long and cold New England winters.</p>

<hr>

<p>Harvard - #1 brand. #1 endowment. And Harvard manages both aggressively. Overall, Harvard has more - more money, more Nobelists, more books, more museums, more labs, more of everything. The school is loaded with superstar faculty (Nobels, National Academy members, etc). Harvard College has the highest yield and one of the lowest admit rates; it may have more students that are really off the charts than any other school in America. The place is Institutional with a capital I. Major Issue - Harvard clearly favors its graduate schools, and the abandoned undergrads don’t complain too much because they count themselves lucky to even be there. A low-level and pervasive unhappiness though pervades most undergraduate psyches, as many believe that their peers are getting a better education and having more fun elsewhere.</p>

<p>Penn - Academically, great breadth across many disciplines. Unrivalled in undergrad business and nursing, top notch in arts and social sciences. Maybe the weakest among the research-oriented Ivy in the hard sciences. Increasingly prominent in humanities ECs (Kelly Writers House, Civics House, Humanities Forum, etc.) to counter pre-professional Wharton-itis. Lots of academic freedom and perhaps the most flexible after Brown; Penn works hard to ensure cross-disciplinary work. Students can take classes at all Penn’s schools (except for Med), benefiting from what may be the second best group of graduate schools among the Ivies. Work hard, party hard ethos. Major Issue - Sheer size and grittiness mars the Ivy experience and an anemic job market in Philadelphia (no incentives to stay local unlike Harvard/Cambridge or Stanford/Palo Alto). </p>

<p>Columbia - Blessed with a long legacy and unrivalled NYC location. Any professor who wants to live in NYC most likely wants to teach at Columbia. That creates great resources for students. Unique Core Curriculum defines the experience, and Columbia is stellar in many areas. One of the very best in arts and social sciences, very strong in sciences too. Famously political and activist, though jobs on Wall Street seem to carry the day with students. Advising, facilities and access to popular courses draw chronic complaints from the students. Campus expansion may help, although there’s never enough space in Manhattan. Major Issue - Does Columbia rely too much on the lure of NYC for students and faculty alike? </p>

<p>Cornell - Big Red!!! Awesome academics – can’t be touched in engineering and the hard sciences. Unrivalled and unique offerings (agriculture school, labor relations, hotel mgmt) within the Ivies. Don’t pooh pooh the admit rate - Cornell is the biggest among the best and - more importantly - it has a slightly different mission that the other places, namely it’s the land grant school for NY state. It’s a major research center even for undergrads. Another idyllic - perhaps isolated - locale for college and the life of the mind. Student diversity varies tremendously between the undergraduate schools (there are eight). And the academic programs are very structured, (aka, rigid). Major issue - Immense academic pressure at a competitive place (aka grind), and those bitter winters.</p>

46

<p>-I’d go to Yale for its great undergraduate education, and beautiful campus + the most complete residential college system</p>

<p>-I’d go to Columbia for its location in NYC, for its inspiring neoclassical campus, and its great western-focused Core curriculum</p>

<p>-I’d go to Penn for its unparalleled breadth in studies open to undergraduates, interdisciplinary focus, and the lovely city of Philadelphia</p>

<p>-I’d go to Brown for its open curriculum (I am nothing if not hypocritical :wink: but I’d still prefer Columbia’s Core)</p>

<p>-I’d go to Dartmouth for its unparalleled focus (and spending) on undergraduates and the sense of community/loyalty/etc it seems to engender</p>

<p>I only like Harvard for its prestige. Other than that it doesn’t seem to have much unique about it (fear not, oh defenders of the crimson banner, we remain on earth where prestige DOES matter, so shut your pompous piehole)</p>

47

<p>Philadelphia- lovely? isn’t it shabby?</p>

48

<p>It’s kinda of shabby-chic!! </p>

<p>It has some really nice neighborhoods where normal people live.</p>

49

<p>Harvard because best campus and enjoyable college experience</p>

50

<p>temina,
I’m not sure I understand your objection to the data which the colleges themselves provide to collegeboard.com and USNWR. Do you believe that the colleges are manipulating this data or are dishonest in its accumulation? What is it you are objecting to?</p>

51

<p>

</p>

<p>Er, riiiiiight.</p>

52

<p>re: the Dartmouth quote.
I think BalletGirl has applied to Dartmouth ED.
In the 10 years or so I have been following these things, Dartmouth has been 4th among the Ivy schools (after HYP) in endowment per student and in SAT scores.</p>

53

<p>Dartmouth is usually 1-4 in almost every category relevant to undergrad (recruiting, spending per student, endowment/ student, quality of study abroad, percent taught by professors, research grants per student, alumni loyalty and giving, etc.)</p>

54

<p>ctParent 2006’s comment shouldn’t be overlooked. </p>

<p>In my experience, professional schools can be quite separate and unto themselves. If there isn’t an undergraduate program attached to the professional school, then the faculty are exclusively graduate faculty. I know some complain about faculty being “focused” on research and grad/prof students to the detriment of their undergrads, but in those cases these faculty have no undergrads to neglect. Put another way, these professional students aren’t pulling away faculty attention. They also generally don’t work as TAs, either. They also tend to pay a lot for their degrees, sometimes without much aid support from the institution.</p>

<p>I think it’s important to keep these things in mind when coming up with this ‘ratio’ of undergrad to grad/prof. Not all non-undergrad students have the same supposed effect on institutional focus. I appreciate ctParent pointing this out.</p>

55

<p>Here is a link to enrollment data on the JHU website:
[Registrar’s</a> Office | Reports & Data](<a href=“Registrar - Homewood Schools (KSAS & WSE) | Office of the Registrar | Johns Hopkins University”>Registrar - Homewood Schools (KSAS & WSE) | Office of the Registrar | Johns Hopkins University)
When I try to eliminate divisions with no or low undergrad enrollment, I come up with 58.7% undergrad for 2006.</p>

<p>It is not easy to figure out. The divisions are very different.</p>

56

<p>collegehelp,
Thanks for the link on Johns Hopkins. I can see now why the numbers can be reported so differently by the college to collegeboard.com and USNWR vs what IPEDs reports. </p>

<p>More systemically, do you think it is the same issue with the other noted discrepancies?</p>

<p>Re the earlier posed questions about the possible relationship between graduate school prominence and PA scores, it seems reasonable to me that the larger grad numbers (as reported by IPEDs) would be most appropriate to use as all of those people and resources are part of what creates the reputation of the college. However, for comparisons about the nature of the undergraduate experience, then I suspect that collegeboard.com and USNWR data would be more informative and probably more accurate. Do you agree?</p>

57

<p>hawkette-
I think it is important to consider both total grad enrollment and the grad enrollment in your particular college, school, or division. Resources are split between grad and undergrad. There are different types of resources. Faculty resources are just one type of resource. There are also physical resources and financial resources. A medical school, for example, might not usurp faculty resources from undergrads but it might usurp physical and financial resources from undergraduate education.</p>

<p>On the other hand, graduate and medical programs contribute to the undergraduate experience in positive ways, too. Example, opportunities for research experience.</p>

58

<p>Thanks for the explanation and suggestions. So, using the IPEDs data that collegehelp provided, here is how the USWNR Top 30 stack up in terms of % of undergraduate students and absolute numbers of graduate students. The Ivy colleges are in capitals.</p>

<pre><code>IPEDs data
</code></pre>

<p>74% BROWN
72% Notre Dame
71% DARTMOUTH
71% UC Berkeley
70% UCLA
69% CORNELL
68% PRINCETON
68% U Michigan
64% Wake Forest
62% U North Carolina
62% U Virginia
60% Rice
56% Carnegie Mellon
55% Wash U
55% Vanderbilt
54% Emory
52% Tufts
50% USC
48% Georgetown
48% Duke
47% YALE
47% Northwestern
45% U PENN
41% Caltech
40% MIT
34% Stanford
34% U Chicago
30% HARVARD
25% COLUMBIA
24% Johns Hopkins</p>

<p>16660 USC
15525 COLUMBIA
15370 HARVARD
13970 Johns Hopkins
12466 Stanford
12290 U Michigan
11811 U PENN
11015 UCLA
10428 U North Carolina
9980 UC Berkeley
9486 U Chicago
9325 Northwestern
9140 U Virginia
7295 Georgetown
6890 Duke
6126 MIT
6079 CORNELL
6065 YALE
6027 Wash U
5692 Emory
5229 Vanderbilt
4643 Tufts
4451 Carnegie Mellon
3251 Notre Dame
2418 Wake Forest
2275 PRINCETON
2134 BROWN
2013 Rice
1689 DARTMOUTH
1222 Caltech</p>

59

<p>I missed the comment by the admissions officer about inaccuracies on collegeboard. Can you please direct me to it or post the link? As you know I am an active user of collegeboard.com data and want to know where there are errors.</p>

60

<ol>
<li>Columbia</li>
<li>Brown
Love both of them!</li>
</ol>