<p>molly, I feel like this is important, and I'm not sure you got the gist of that 'lawyer' post. Read it again. Also note the nature of your posts. You continuously try to say negative things about me. Alright, I'm an idiot! What else do you want? What more can you have to be satisfied on the interweb?</p>
<p>Well, this thread quickly degraded into a fierce debate among the few, rather than charitable discussion among many. I want to add my own experiences on what I take the topic to be. From the original post</p>
<p>
[quote]
It sucks, because I've done well here without doing a lot of work, but a lot of time, I don't want to be forced to do something I don't feel like doing. Had I not gotten a full scholarship here, I would've dropped out already, but its an "opportunity" I guess I should hold on to. </p>
<p>[...] I feel a little better about school since I've stopped caring about the grades. But w/e.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I definitely understand where you are coming from. Despite what other posters have said, students are not that free in a practical sense. They are definitely not free at all in K-12, as they are forced to consume a certain type of education that fails miserably at fostering independent learning. </p>
<p>Furthermore, the incentives in place today make a college education the smartest move, so if one is being rational and has the usual goals of jobs or maximizing options and so on, college is a no-brainer. The point of the post is that, although students are not legally bound to go to school anymore, the education still basically sucks. What is to be done about it? Stop caring about grades? Find a different major? Start learning things on your own? The point, as in many threads, is to share experiences, so it's disappointing to see such ready acceptance of the status quo, e.g.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I do appear to have missed "the point" of the OP's pointless whining and bellyaching about unchangeable reality and the consequences of his own decisions.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think we are dealing with an unchangeable reality. To me, that is the defeatist position. According to the position, the education we have will not change, so might as well conform to it in order to get the rewards. I take it that this type of forced gaming the system is exactly what the original poster (and I) detest. In other words, the "unchangeable reality" position may agree that education sucks, but it denies that as being important or, for some reason, even worthy of discussion. </p>
<p>Another thing people might disagree about is whether college actually does foster independent learning. From post #18</p>
<p>
[quote]
You learn HOW to learn and HOW to critically think in college. You are given more tools rather than resources (knowledge of varied subjects) in university.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think college is a lot better than high school, especially since university professors have PhD's and actually do research and collaborate in their chosen field, while high school teachers have a Bachelor's sometimes unrelated to what they teach. But still I think college doesn't teach student HOW to learn as much as they could. There is still an enormous amount of regurgitation and memorization -- just ask any pre-med. I have had 2 psych classes that were basically a chore in memorizing the professor's lengthy powerpoint slides. That's not my idea of independent learning.</p>
<p>I agree with most of your post Sreis, especially the last 2 paragraphs. And also x90 I'm sorry if i came across as overly defeatist in my last post...sorry i'm not usually a jackass like that :)</p>
<p>Lecaf - the funny this is I hate ad hominem arguments so I'm a hypocrite for insulting you, but you insulted me first, have repeatedly implied I'm stupid, and told me I'm passionless with my life, close-minded, my entire worldview is fundamentally flawed, i'm trapped in the matrix, that I'll end up a miserable person alone in my cubicle working as some biglaw hotshot and will hate my life and never know what passion is...I mean c'mon, let's not pretend I'm the only one with negative posts. And I don't even know why you said that or where it was coming from. And I still don't know what your underlying point is - that litigators are evil? Believe it or not, that's not too far from my personal views - the majority of lawyers aren't litigators, you know. People think lawyers are what they see on TV - in a courtroom with judge and jury suing each other - it's funny that applies to like 10% of real life lawyers lol. Mostly they sit at a desk, meet with clients and explain legal contracts (tax, marriage, divorce, wills, etc). It's necessary work, most people do it honestly, and most lawyers don't even see the inside of a courtroom. As for litigation, well, i think that's where the U.S court system needs tort reform, but that's just me. </p>
<p>Also I'm sorry we basically hijacked your thread...yeah i have to stop procrastinating and go finish my Aplia.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I definitely understand where you are coming from. Despite what other posters have said, students are not that free in a practical sense. They are definitely not free at all in K-12, as they are forced to consume a certain type of education that fails miserably at fostering independent learning.</p>
<p>Furthermore, the incentives in place today make a college education the smartest move, so if one is being rational and has the usual goals of jobs or maximizing options and so on, college is a no-brainer. The point of the post is that, although students are not legally bound to go to school anymore, the education still basically sucks. What is to be done about it? Stop caring about grades? Find a different major? Start learning things on your own? The point, as in many threads, is to share experiences, so it's disappointing to see such ready acceptance of the status quo, e.g.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Right, and what you basically have in this country is a large incentives structure such that if you don't 'play the game', then you won't gain the signals necessary to distinguish yourself in certain crowds, and so that's a little troubling actually. But I argue that all of this can end when you're 22 years old; when you no longer have to do things a certain way in order to 'be successful'. Or if you're incredibly astute, all of this can end when you're 19 and drop out of Harvard like that guy we all know.</p>
<p>So people should be free after that, right? But it gets interesting! Because so many people choose not to "end it" right after college - they choose to be a part of some predetermined societal structures. Quite simply, education has become a business, and there's a lot of mis-signaling going on in that people who are ACTUALLY interested in learning are not getting into the nation's top schools. It's kind of a strange reality really, and it's so difficult to figure out something that's been ingrained in society for so long. I know people like StarG wants some answers, but we really don't know.</p>
<p>The OP hates the memorization and forced learning he has found in a top school. I have a little bit different experience. I played the game of high school and just tried to game the system. It was all a game: grades, SATs, teacher praise, staying out of trouble, ECs. They were all mostly meaningless factors. It was funny because a lot of my very intelligent friends played the game, but were deep down pretty rebellious and independent. I don't think high school made much use of our those qualities at all. </p>
<p>College for me was much better, though I know for many it is no different from high school (hence the phrase "13th grade" to describe freshmen year). I came in with enough AP credit to do what I want and found a super flexible major (Cognitive Sciences). I began to think independently for the first time in my sophomore year of college in an upper-level Mathematical Logic class. It was insane. I felt like I have always had so much intelligence and desire to learn, and until that moment I had no idea how much public education and college education had been holding me back. </p>
<p>It is amazing how much I didn't learn in high school and the beginning of college. You can easily find this out by giving students a final from a class they took just 1 semester ago. Many would fail because they don't care and just forget. </p>
<p>Post #29 asks about alternatives. Since I've been interested in the whole independent learning thing, I've had a chance to read about different systems. There are actually a whole bunch of ideas, from educational theories such as Montessori Methods and Unschooling to policy such as vouchers. I just read an excellent book called How Children Fail by John Holt, which I would recommend to the original poster and anyone really. </p>
<p>Post #29 also implies that students need incentive to learn. That's one of the main thing that the book How Children Fail addresses: children do not need incentive to learn. Children love to learn. They always ask questions, they love to play with things, and are extremely curious about the world. One might say they want to learn too much. In school, it's the constant drills and the authority/praise of the teacher that make education a game. The idea is that public education, forced learning, drills, and an environment in which students are scared of being wrong or just plain bored actually destroys children's ability to learn. I don't mean to focus just on lower education, but if it weren't for basically one sequence of courses in my major that opened my eyes, I don't think college would be much different. </p>
<p>Some links</p>
<p>very non-traditional schooling, called unschooling because you have to un-learn all the terrible habits that students pick up in public school (listening for teacher cues, getting the teacher to "help" you by telling you the answer, pattern recognition instead of real learning, etc.): Unschooling</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>more non-traditional schooling: Montessori</a> method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>the guy I talked about, which has links to his somewhat controversial books: John</a> Holt (educator) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>
[quote]
And I still don't know what your underlying point is - that litigators are evil?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nope. Try again. And look at your last post. One sentence regarding sreis', and a whole paragraph about nothing in particular. You keep trying to justify yourself to me. Like I said, I really don't care who you are or how you think people should view you. Address the points.</p>
<p>"Its obvious what has happened: some professor or teacher penalized you for something pedantic or has some ridiculous grading policies/ absurd hurdles to get a good grade in his or her course. You got a (god forbid) B or C in some class, and were completely devastated. Thinking its the end of the world, you make this retarded post putting the system on trial, man and ironically, despite being devastated by one silly grade in one class, actually advocate dropping out of college entirely (not seriously, though youre just b!tching)."</p>
<p>It's ironic -- I made the original post, yet you're the one who has become so defensive. You're an idiot -- none of that happened. I've never let grades dictate my life, even before I started thinking more about it. I just did the best I could. The rest of your post is just oozing with the same biased mentality -- you consider it "whining," but you're unable to see the big picture, so you attack me, like a child.</p>
<p>I only mentioned the things about hooking up (and yes, I have had sex -- thanks for asking) to emphasize that I've indulged in the more "fun" aspects of college, and I just wasn't some unambitious kid sitting here angry at everything around me.</p>
<p>I keep having to justify myself because you keep making assumptions about me and my life, coming out of nowhere. What are your points? You haven't made a single valid point. All you do is insult people and their goals/dreams while not actually saying anything of substance. When you do, I'll be happy to address it.</p>
<p><em>edit</em> i just saw your comment about preferring European educational systems which I guess is a valid point...I suppose it depends what country you're talking about. I wouldn't mind a British system, for one thing, with the A-levels and you get more freedom of choice, but I don't like the system they have in Norway (from what I know of it) because it seems like a test qualifies what you get to do and restricts choice. All of Europe doesn't have one cohesive system though.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Right, and what you basically have in this country is a large incentives structure such that if you don't 'play the game', then you won't gain the signals necessary to distinguish yourself in certain crowds, and so that's a little troubling actually. But I argue that all of this can end when you're 22 years old; when you no longer have to do things a certain way in order to 'be successful'. Or if you're incredibly astute, all of this can end when you're 19 and drop out of Harvard like that guy we all know.</p>
<p>So people should be free after that, right? But it gets interesting! Because so many people choose not to "end it" right after college - they choose to be a part of some predetermined societal structures. Quite simply, education has become a business, and there's a lot of mis-signaling going on in that people who are ACTUALLY interested in learning are not getting into the nation's top schools. It's kind of a strange reality really, and it's so difficult to figure out something that's been ingrained in society for so long. I know people like StarG wants some answers, but we really don't know.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, right, completely invalid. And I don't know how many times I have to keep telling this to you honey, I really don't care about your life.</p>
<p>Or better yet, address sreis' posts. He's made some GREAT points. Turn the floor over to him, instead of trying to address me all the time.</p>
<p>^I said I didn't see your last post, ok? anyway this argument is going nowhere so back to the original points...</p>
<p>I think students really don't give a crap about most of what we're taught K-12 and even freshman year of college, and that's because we're forced to studying things we don't want. If you tested me on the stuff I "learned" In 11th grade Physics class, I would fail miserably - because I didn't care about Physics. But I managed to do well by memorizing/regurgitating info and understanding basic concepts.</p>
<p>But i'd ace a 9th grade Math test - because Math is a topic that builds on itself, you need to know the basic to understand the advanced. This is what I love about Econ as well. I also remember a ton of U.S History and could probably ace those tests since I actually enjoyed it. But this was not true for much of High School. </p>
<p>StarGazer asked what alternative methods we can use - well i'm no teacher but used to tutor a lot, and it's so much easier to ask a kid to memorize 50 SAT words than to truly make them understand concepts. Plus I tutored below-average kids so it was harder - not gonna lie, many times I had them merely memorize info because I was frustrated trying to make them really understand it, which made me realize I could never be a teacher because I'd be a failure. Even in college I have classes where I merely memorize in the info, regurgitate it for the midterm/final, and promptly forget it. Not so in the classes I actually care about - in Math/Econ if I don't understand something I'll take the time to actually LEARN it rather than memorize it because those are subjects I give a crap about.</p>
<p>What differentiates American/Canadian education from many other places is that we're forced to study more things we don't want to and don't care about - is that a bad thing though? If no one cares about History, we're all screwed - so I think the current Liberal Arts system of HS where everyone does Math, Science, English, History/Govt should continue, but reforming education - especially elementary school - so that it's more about understanding over memorization should be important. But no one really knows how to do that.</p>
<p>Oh, someone mentioned Montessori - don't know much about it except that it offers a ton of freedom at an earlier age. to be honest, the people I know who have done it aren't any more passionate about learning or smarter than those who don't.</p>
<p>
[quote]
children do not need incentive to learn. Children love to learn. They always ask questions, they love to play with things, and are extremely curious about the world. One might say they want to learn too much.
[/quote]
It depends though...my sister is 6 and I've taught her a lot of things, but I've noticed she's more inclined towards certain things like reading. She hates Math and doesn't want to learn it at all, and I was similar at her age. So freedom is important but sometimes children have to be forced, as bad as it sounds, because multiplication tables aren't fun but necessary.
[quote]
In school, it's the constant drills and the authority/praise of the teacher that make education a game. The idea is that public education, forced learning, drills, and an environment in which students are scared of being wrong or just plain bored actually destroys children's ability to learn.
[/quote]
I would say my sister's 1st grade teacher giving her extra homework so she can learn to add and subtract makes her unhappy and hate Math even more, but this force is necessary. The students need to learn to Add and Subtract, I think we can all agree. At home my mom used "Math games" to help her, suggested by her teacher, but she still hates Math. Kids hate vegetables, but they need those too...there's a fine line between freedom and too much choice. How do you teach someone so h/she understands rather than memorizes? How do you make them passionate about learning when they don't care? Children love to learn, but not everything. Sometimes force is needed.</p>
<p>^ someone posted a link on something called UnSchooling and if you look at their website, they actually answer questions like "but what about math?" and "so i should just let them run wild?" yeah it sounds pretty crazy giving these kids all this freedom because we're worried that, oh well they won't learn math or science they'll naturally want to just color and be artists or play with the bongo drums, but i don't think that's true. check out this link [url=<a href="http://www.unschooling.com/library/faq/index.shtml#4%5DUnschooling%5B/url">http://www.unschooling.com/library/faq/index.shtml#4]Unschooling[/url</a>] problem is, I think most parents won't make the effort to do that with their kids, they leave it to the teachers to do everything.</p>
<p>I'm curious as to how many people have actually lived in the real world. You think that college is structured in a way that restricts your freedom then good luck trying to make ends meet. College is a joke compared to living in the real world. If you don't study for a test and receive an F in the class then you can simply take that class over. If you don't pay your rent you get evicted and have to go through the process of moving out or being homeless. Real life is more routine then college ever will be. You wake up, you go to work, you do things in your free time, and you take care of your responsibilities. You're obviously not ready for this so it's a good thing that you're in this "mental prison" you speak of. Knock off the whole "well my experiences were more horrible than yours," yea, and? My parents drugs dealers that can't hold down an apartment; I doubt you had to continually see the swat team invading your home as a child. I made the best of my life and so can you. I certainly didn't get ahead by complaining and begging for sympathy.</p>
<p>You don't feel that you're receiving the knowledge that you deserve? Go to the library and research subjects you find interesting. No one is holding your hand telling you what your limits to learning are. If you're unhappy with the material taught then do something about it instead of complain. No one is telling you that you can't learn on the side. I taught myself calculus and Russian because I was simply interested in it. Nothing is holding anyone back from learning their desired interest. </p>
<p>GPA is a way to gauge whether or not the students are trying. There is no way to "prove" that you have learned something other than applying it to related work (homework, tests) which makes up your GPA. What kind of non-structured school do you want? A university that does not monitor students devotion to grades and passes everyone on the assumption that they are eager to learn? If you complain about medial tasks in the classroom then be prepared to get fired from your real world job. You know what you do when a professor has some ridiculous grading policies? You deal with it and try to do it to the best of your ability because you'll encounter that 100x worst when you're out on your own.</p>
<p>College is basically for the certification. Since I have goals that require a college degree, I'm going to put aside my ego and deal with it until I retrieve what I set out to gain: necessary skills related to my job, the proper certification, and some fun class material. College is what you make of it. If you're miserable then you're making yourself miserable.</p>
<p>And for those of you that believe routine life restricts freedom and passion, you're totally off. Happiness is completely subjective. I'm very happy with my life even though I follow a strict routine and sacrificed some of my freedom.</p>
<p>" College is basically for the certification. Since I have goals that require a college degree, I'm going to put aside my ego and deal with it until I retrieve what I set out to gain: necessary skills related to my job, the proper certification, and some fun class material. College is what you make of it. If you're miserable then you're making yourself miserable. "</p>
<p>Yeah, you're right. That's the realization I came to when I thought about this further. I just have to suck it up, for the most part -- it isn't completely bad.</p>
<p>I tried to be civil, despite your egoes reading otherwise.</p>
<p>x90 and Lecaf Oz, you are both huge idiots.</p>
<p>Lecaf Oz, I'm familiar with the Rudius/ Tucker Max board. Obviously you have absorbed everything they had to say with no critical evaluation of your own. And you bastardized Tucker's main point Lecaf. He said DO WHAT YOU WANT with your life. Some people, believe it or not, DO want to become lawyers. Even Tucker, disillusioned with law, says this and a couple of his best friends LOVE the law. First, stop regurgitating things from other sites you have no understanding of. Secondly, the point is that YOU, THE INDIVIDUAL, take his advice - you're not preaching to others how they should live their lives. THAT IS THE OPPOSITE OF THAT BOARD'S MANTRA.</p>
<p>I never said the corporate world was bad - I was illustrating a point because YOU thought it was bad yet were getting a degree "because you had to and you were stickin it out." Christ almighty you are dumb.</p>
<p>This thread isn't a debate about what career or life path is best. Not only is that impossible, but most of us are probably older than you, making any 'life advice' from you, a complete joke.</p>
<p>The fact is, x90, who is "from the gutter" hates college for some reason. Maybe it's some idiots there that act like jerks. Or he thinks he's better than everyone. Or he's annoyed with pedantic grading scale (which we all follow - and trust me dude - undergrad school work is just NOT that hard). College grading is the same if not easier than high school - and you're the ONLY one complaining on this board about "work I have to do" and "omg why do I have to do work that's graded like this." OR you're complaining because you are having some kind of life crisis where you feel like a cog in the machine, but you're going to whine to us rather than get things handled yourself.</p>
<p>This entire thread is a joke. and x90, people I know who've really had it rough virtually never complain about their past. and they certainly don't complain about the "misery" of living comfortably in an undergraduate bubble, where you have to write an essay or a silly problem set once a week. you're complaining and wasting of everyone's time doesn't sound like you've had anything much rough or have much incentive to get anything done</p>
<p>Vehicle, that was a good post. anyway I think most college students realize that the real world is in fact a lot tougher. Whether or not you care about academics, genuinally learning or merely memorization, college is a fun place (for some) to spend a couple years. It's not always the stuff we learn in textbooks that's important either. You learn time management, network, and gain social skills. But to be honest, you could probably learn that through any job straight out of high school as well.
[quote]
GPA is a way to gauge whether or not the students are trying. There is no way to "prove" that you have learned something other than applying it to related work (homework, tests) which makes up your GPA. What kind of non-structured school do you want? A university that does not monitor students devotion to grades and passes everyone on the assumption that they are eager to learn?
[/quote]
Well I think the point was that too many students care only about grades and not enough about learning...but yeah I can't think of a better system. Elementary schools could certainly be improved in this regard though.
[quote]
Some people, believe it or not, DO want to become lawyers. Even Tucker, disillusioned with law, says this and a couple of his best friends LOVE the law. First, stop regurgitating things from other sites you have no understanding of. Secondly, the point is that YOU, THE INDIVIDUAL, take his advice - you're not preaching to others how they should live their lives.
[/quote]
Sorry, I don't know who this Tucker guy is but I did read 2 posts on that site - if the argument is that he can't understand why anyone would want to become a Lawyer, well, many people can't understand why anyone would want to be a Teacher, Doctor, Nurse, Receptionist, Social Worker, Vet, Physical trainer, Banker, etc. I don't know why people on CC and in real life seem to enjoy putting down people for their goals or professions. If we didn't have all these jobs, society couldn't function, yet I always see posts where people are like, "Oh ___ is a useless major. People who study ___ are smarter/better and contribute more to society." Sorry, i don't define success as one particular career. The guy who sells me fruits at the market is successful if he's happy with his life.</p>
<p>
[quote]
College is basically for the certification.
[/quote]
This is the kind of cop-out, rationalized answer that people give sometimes. You are describing basically what college education <em>effectively</em> accomplishes, rather than what you believe or what it is intended to accomplish. No university president or professor will say that the purpose of college is certification. Perhaps they believe certificates or degrees should be given, but that is certainly not an end a university wishes to get to. </p>
<p>I think college students would like their college to help them think independently, to improve mental skills, to study what is interesting to them, to find out more about the world, and so on. I believe values like these are what university presidents, college professors, etc. want for the students of their college as well. This is exclusive to certification if certification is merely something you get at the end of whatever form of education happens to exist that doesn't accomplish those ends. So don't conform to reality so much that you believe it should actually be the way it is, that its purpose is exactly what is accomplished. That is pure rationalization. That is how to act, not what the goal is. College for you at this moment in time may be <em>used</em> to get a certification, so its purpose in very concrete terms is that, but that is non-issue. That's merely how you choose to behave. I think it is much more sensible that colleges as academic institutions aspire to certain goals which they are trying to continually improve upon. </p>
<p>So I think x90 wrongly changed his mind!</p>
<p>And the whole connection with the "real world" is mistaken. I don't think there is any evidence that getting drills shoved down your throat and memorizing stuff you don't want to actually prepares you better to pay your rent on time, hold down a job, and all that. In general, being restricted in one area (e.g. school) does not improve your ability to be restricted in anther area (life). Prisoners are not free and have to abide by extremely strict rules in prison. Are theysuddenly brilliant at following other kinds of rules (legal rules, i.e. laws) when they get out of prison? </p>
<p>Even if forcing kids or college students to do things they don't like did help them out when they pay the rent or get stuck as a peon, don't you think it is kind of a waste to prepare them for that and have them go through more unhappiness? If they are going to be unhappy anyway when they are 18+ or 22+ because real life is "more routine than college will ever be" (post #54), it seems like at least we should do things that make them happy when they are younger than that. Better then than never. </p>
<p>Just to drive home the previous point about people not really getting used to stuff they don't want to do, did you eventually get used to high school? I didn't. I got more and more fed up with it as I went along. And the people who sucked it up didn't actually get used to it either in and of itself, they just ignored it. They removed it from their life, didn't pay attention, didn't care. So are we to believe the bad kind of education which we seem to agree is happening relatively often (pointless exercises, memorization) is effective at getting us skilled at ignoring things and becoming zombies? What kind of world do you want this to be?</p>
<p>peter_parker, given that your style is strangely similar to those on the Rudius Media forums (in that you call people idiots and whatnot), I'm going to have to say that I really like what you're saying. And yeah, I'm a college student. I haven't made it to the real world yet, so you have to understand if I - as well as pretty much everyone else on here - make really stupid posts. But hey, we're all idiots. I'm just not there yet in terms of life experience, nor do I claim that I am. I only mean well, but you're right in that I'm in no position to reiterate some of the stuff that has been said.</p>
<p>You do seem to make some really good points. I figure you'd be an alright guy to have a drink with. So let's just forget this BS, because it really is a stupid thread.</p>
<p>"I think college students would like their college to help them think independently, to improve mental skills, to study what is interesting to them, to find out more about the world, and so on." </p>
<p>This is the kind of experience I'm getting in college. I'm taking 4 classes this semester, and only 1 is about memorization (and not too much) rather than analytical thinking. it's certainly a different environment from high school. And the 1 memorization heavy class is a required classics course which involves me memorizing a lot about Art History rather than learning. But even then, I feel as though I've learned a bit more about Art and how to approach a painting. I feel sorry for the OP if all of her classes are less about learning and more about memorization. I don't feel that's worth the tuition at all.</p>